HOI4 Dev Diary - Scout Planes and breaking the Enigma - and Stream premieres today at 16:00CET!

[Delpheus]

Germany did extensive recon of Western USSR before Barbarossa and was largely unapposed since Stalin did not want an escalation and a war with Germany. Pre-war a lot was done as aerial mapping, although Sidney Cotton did some strategic recon just before the outbreak.

I think the thing to consider is
1. it is not always easy to determine a recon plane from another plane
2. The major powers during pre-war ww2 did really not want a ww2 after ww1, and tried to avoid escalation for a long while, so even if a plane was suspected or doing recon work, it was probably hard to gather enough evidence to accuse said power of doing recon. Even if evidence was gathered it isnt clear that the western powers were willing to stamp their foot down, even after Czechoslovakia and Poland they were still kinda hesitant to commit fully for a while (see phoney war)

@podcat
But then why give us options to play non-historical? We could just watch a documentary on WW2 if we want to see it play out exactly as it did. Instead, the game gives us options in total defiance of history - YOU CAN choose to defend Czech, you can choose to defend Poland... Either stop giving us options to do non-historical things or keep it strictly historical, it's very odd, confusing, and annoying when you try to do both at once.

If your justification if that the powers in history did not want to do something, why do you give us options to do something different in the instances I mentioned? We are no required to sit back and do nothing. We can do something, but with consequences of course.

All we need is an option. If we don't shoot it down, we maintain peace. If we shoot it down, everyone suffers the consequences.

 

[LegateSquidward]

Can we get the ability to bar Allied AI from using captured ports so they don't flood the new front with units and immediately kill the supply?

 

[Delpheus]

yeah, and he should complain with Stalin about neglect german pre war air scout, not with the devs lolzzz.

"offtopic": Stalin neglecting the intels about imminent German invasion is still one of war's most debated mysteries.

You are not Stalin. You do not have to make the same choices he did. If you want to invade china, start a faction with Japan, or have a naval battle with the USA that's all stuff you can choose to do. The game should not require you make the same mistakes as the real leaders because what's the point in playing Germany if you know you're going to lose because you have to follow history play by play, no deviation from what actually happened?

 

[Scrubadubdub]

I'm all for this update/expansion pack and it's subject, I just don't know how psyched I am about the whole civ for spy mechanic. I just feel like getting used to not having as much industry to work with because of the sacrifices made towards keeping up a spy network won't be as engaging. It would be cooler to see stuff like the general trait system where developing your spies and spy networks is based mainly off using them in specific ways, not having to sacrifice industry which could be used towards a myriad of other things. Say you have your clandestine agents and organizations, Garbo of MI5 and Alan Turing of Bletchley for example, and instead of having to build those shiny new airbases half as fast so they can get to work, you have to make decisions on what you want them to do based on what you want them to be better at as time goes on, and basing what you want them to be better at based off the traits they start off with (and maybe what they did, historically). Not doing anything at all would be the most costly course of action in that type of system.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Lots of good information in the new diary but I am worried that the cost of Factories in the spy game will cause the loss of growth to other areas of the game without an increase to available slots to regions. How will this be handled and I love the new Recon planes.

The cost in factories is only for 30 days or so. It might mean you don't instantly buy all the upgrades at game start but for most majors it should be doable half way through the game.

Also only the spymaster needs to put tons of factories on it, most nations will just do a few defence techs and put their spies on counterespionage

 

[ashbery76]

Couldn’t recon planes just as easily been done as an action like last stand or staff planing? It seems like a weird and tiny thing to control in a grand strategy game.

Yeah I just have the bad feeling this is just to help sell the DLC.I just spent all weekend relearning EU4 and a good 25% added since I last played years back is just fiddle and should be cut out.

 

[jju_57]

@podcat
But then why give us options to play non-historical? We could just watch a documentary on WW2 if we want to see it play out exactly as it did. Instead, the game gives us options in total defiance of history - YOU CAN choose to defend Czech, you can choose to defend Poland... Either stop giving us options to do non-historical things or keep it strictly historical, it's very odd, confusing, and annoying when you try to do both at once.

If your justification if that the powers in history did not want to do something, why do you give us options to do something different in the instances I mentioned? We are no required to sit back and do nothing. We can do something, but with consequences of course.

All we need is an option. If we don't shoot it down, we maintain peace. If we shoot it down, everyone suffers the consequences.

Because the option wouldn't be that simple. Instead you don't shoot down the first flight you file a complaint, then warning then possible shoot it down. And of course the other side can say it was a mistake, etc. Now the AI would have to be programmed for all of these steps. And what would the "historic" path then be? What if Germany did flights over Italy? Should they go to war and shoot the planes down?

This is not as simple as you make it out to be.

And would the receiving side even really know? Radar isn't around most likely, the planes could be disguised as commercial, they can fly a bit higher and maybe not even noticed by the country. A few flights may not even raise any alarms or might not even be noticed.

 

[bitmode]

Because the option wouldn't be that simple. Instead you don't shoot down the first flight you file a complaint, then warning then possible shoot it down. And of course the other side can say it was a mistake, etc. Now the AI would have to be programmed for all of these steps. And what would the "historic" path then be? What if Germany did flights over Italy? Should they go to war and shoot the planes down?

This is not as simple as you make it out to be.

Indeed it's not that simple, so it should not be added in it's current scope. This is the same reason why the devs (rightfully) removed the Pearl Harbor event. If something depends on a bunch of minute circumstances and can be abstracted away in existing game mechanics without affecting the strategy at large, it probably should.

it's very odd, confusing, and annoying when you try to do both at once

Read @podcat's signature and you have your answer

 

[George Parr]

@podcat
But then why give us options to play non-historical? We could just watch a documentary on WW2 if we want to see it play out exactly as it did. Instead, the game gives us options in total defiance of history - YOU CAN choose to defend Czech, you can choose to defend Poland... Either stop giving us options to do non-historical things or keep it strictly historical, it's very odd, confusing, and annoying when you try to do both at once.

If your justification if that the powers in history did not want to do something, why do you give us options to do something different in the instances I mentioned? We are no required to sit back and do nothing. We can do something, but with consequences of course.

All we need is an option. If we don't shoot it down, we maintain peace. If we shoot it down, everyone suffers the consequences.

What exactly do you need an option for?
It sounds more like you are making useless black & white comments like the one above for no apparent reason. Your rebuttal makes little sense. Things aren't always one way or the other, there are plenty of steps in between. And that is even more true if you move from history to history + game balance.

As has been said before, recon in peace times doesn't consist to 100% of obvious military planes flying over countries on a scout mission. You can't just randomly shoot down stuff during peace time. Especially when there wasn't really much around that could shoot down a plane in the first place. It's not like fighters were patroling areas at that time, neither were anti-air batteries spread all over the place. Not to mention that you couldn't possibly know what exactly was flying there. It could be basically everything. It's not like today, where you have radar and for most planes know which plane is travelling where. There could be a place for something like a protest if tons of recon planes are flying over your territory, or a risk which depens on the scale of the recon operations, that might cause an event if one of the planes crashed, giving information to the country it crashed in (and allowing for a protest as well), but that's about it. You also realize that something is going on, that you might be a target soon, and thus can prepare for what might come.

I was just thinking this. Did we really need an entire plane type to manage and build for recon? Feels like its bordering on a bother.

I disagree, recon was extremely vital. Giving it more value and adding more layers, both through intelligence and actual recon units, make it much better. And yes, recon planes were extremely important for the overall picture. One obvious example would be Bagration, which the Germans were completely unprepared for after basically having cut recon air-missions due to a lack of fuel and losing control of the skies. Reducing such a vital part to nothing but a side-note that you can spend some command power on if you feel like it, while not having to do it, isn't in any way a suitable replacement.

If you can handle two different kind of fighters, and four different kind of bombers (not to mention carrier versions), then having a recon plane isn't a hassle at all. If Gary Grigsby's War in the East has you dealing with recon planes, I don't see why there couldn't be a place for it in Hearts of Iron as well.

 

[Calle]

I disagree, recon was extremely vital. Giving it more value and adding more layers, both through intelligence and actual recon units, make it much better. And yes, recon planes were extremely important for the overall picture. One obvious example would be Bagration, which the Germans were completely unprepared for after basically having cut recon air-missions due to a lack of fuel and losing control of the skies. Reducing such a vital part to nothing but a side-note that you can spend some command power on if you feel like it, while not having to do it, isn't in any way a suitable replacement.

If you can handle two different kind of fighters, and four different kind of bombers (not to mention carrier versions), then having a recon plane isn't a hassle at all. If Gary Grigsby's War in the East has you dealing with recon planes, I don't see why there couldn't be a place for it in Hearts of Iron as well.

The upkeep of your army and the logistics needed to supported is reduced to a side-note that you don’t have to care about in the game, so I think a few recon planes could be as well.

 

[am300307]

Why would you want that recon plane? It takes 3 years to research, which you could research much more important upgrades. Dont want to jump to conclusions but I have a feeling this intelligence expansion wont result in much. Most people will just ignore that aspect and go on fine beating the AI with infantry armies.

 

[DerGrößteRitter]

You are not Stalin.

As far as you know

 

[Louella]

Why would you want that recon plane? It takes 3 years to research.

that's probably the 2nd level recon plane, and it won't take that long to research.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

You are not Stalin. You do not have to make the same choices he did. If you want to invade china, start a faction with Japan, or have a naval battle with the USA that's all stuff you can choose to do. The game should not require you make the same mistakes as the real leaders because what's the point in playing Germany if you know you're going to lose because you have to follow history play by play, no deviation from what actually happened?

Air space violation was common thing til to modern days, and we arent seeing any country going to war because of this. The choice of developers is much closer to the real world than it seems.

Soviet Union vs USA in cold war had lots of air space incident, Turkey vs Greece every year had some sort of incident. Russia from time to time poke up NATO guys and vice-versa.

The most common thing is the violator claim that it was an accident, or that the pilot acted on his own.

 

[I had a bad name 89]

Will there be a way for colonies to break free as part of a resistance or for enemy nations to fund resistance in British/French colonies?

 

[coffeelingfine]

No unique scout planes for USA and Britain?

 

[TheRealPalpy]

Why are the people on the hoi4 stream discussing the spanish and agents as if there have not been dev diaries on them??

 

[C-Breeze]

Just wondering how many recon planes will be necessary to gain substantial intel? On the surface it seems these sorts of missions were generally clandestine in nature, (at least to some degree), so sending a large wing overhead might be counter productive.

 

[Solid15]

@podcat
Will it be possible to break codes of a target country by spy-infiltrating a third country who has broken the codes of said target country?

I heard a story that the the Soviets broke the German codes trough their spies in Sweden. Sweden broke the code of the T52 Geheimfernschreiber, and Soviet spies in Sweden (I suppose in the Swedish intelligence agency) first passed whatever information the Swedes gathered trough to the Soviets, and in a later phase the Soviets could decipher the T52 Geheimfernschreiber themselves with the aid of the information provided by their Swedish spy.

I can't seem to find this information anymore, so it is either a very unknown story, or the story I once read might be bogus. But it would be cool to gather information by infiltrating another country's intelligence agency.

 

[Enfield_PDX]

I was going to come in with some rebuke about how peacetime recon flights were a thing (The number of flights going over the USSR prior to Barbarossa was actually quite staggering) and how dealing with them in HOI is a difficult gameplay problem to solve but I feel like a lot of people are missing the key point of this dev diary.

Look at how damn cute the FW-189 is.