Europa Universalis IV - 8 June 2021 - New monuments chosen for 1.31.5

[SirStopp]

Is nobody going to talk about how busted these monuments are?

 

[Sumonious]

Modifiers:

Tier 1	Tier 2	Tier 3
Global modifiers: +0.25 Yearly harmony increase +0.5 Yearly legitimacy	Global modifiers: +0.33 Yearly harmony increase −10% State maintenance −5% Minimum autonomy in territories +1 Yearly legitimacy	Global modifiers: +0.5 Yearly harmony increase −20% State maintenance −10% Minimum autonomy in territories +1 Yearly legitimacy

Wow, a Vietnam monument, I did not expect this. This is great, my country is getting representation. Thank you a lot Paradox team.

Edit:

@Pavía could we have some change to the Vietnam's mission 'The Imperial Citadel' so that it can be tied in with this monument?

Maybe instead of a 30 development requirement, the mission would require construction of the 1st tier of the monument and a lower requirement in development (maybe 20)? Or maybe, having a discount for construction of the monument as a reward instead of the current reward?

I am new to EU IV so I am not sure if there is other missions for other countries that directly referring to a monument. However, since the Dai Viet's mission and the upcoming monument are both referencing the same object, I just think that it should be connected somehow.

 

[redlex]

Can we have the cathedral of Aachen as a monument. The place where the emperor was crowned? Surely that one was more important than the cathedral of cologne that wasn't even finished until the 19. century or a castle in Austria I didn't even know existed.

For the cologne cathedral , the purpose of tier is to show that the monument is unfinished.

Also aachen was not used for coronation after 1531 it move to frankfurt.

On the other hand , I also never heard of Ambras Castle too

 

[Nyrael]

Can we have a mechanic penalizing Pokemoning monuments by bloody rape pillage and murder?

Taking monuments linked to religions/cultures other than one's own should cause a penalty with all nations of said religion/culture at the very least lowering diplomatic relations and probably also increasing revolt risk in provinces of said culture/religion and giving a CB to "reclaim our heritage" to nations of the given religion/culture.

This could have an interesting benefit of actually giving a reason to establish client states/vassals so that the monuments would be owned by (subject) nation of appropriate culture/religion and let one avoid the penalty.

None of those methods seem like good ideas to me , though I do agree that it would be normal if the player could not make use of more than X monuments.

I think it would be better if there was a "Promote monument" mechanics, which represents your state advertising the monument and making profit from it. Only X Monuments can be promoted, replacing one is costly, and non-promoted monuments don't give country-wide bonuses (though they retain provincial bonuses).
Alternatively, Monuments could have an Upkeep Cost. This would be more realistic (costs of maintaining monuments should be monumental), but it wouldn't stop pokemoning by richer Players, especially in End Game.

 

[Pavía]

Again, thanks everybody for your kind words, and the good reception for the new monuments; now we can see reactions to the post, and they're already pretty positive!

Very nice changes! I just have a few points/questions, some have already been asked and even answered like the Jerusalem holy city maybe being more about religious unity whereas the Kaaba could be more about conversion, but my main question would be:

Since the holy city now gives an extra missionary at lvl 3, will the missionary from having Jerusalem itself disappear?

Will the monuments give extra bonuses for building them on top of controlling the holy cities as various religions, or will they completely replace them? Will Christian denominations no longer get a bonus for controlling Mecca and Medina for instance?

Will conquering Jerusalem and Mecca still give you an extra missionary? If not I’d consider it a big nerf especially for European countries trying to conquer Mecca.

Jerusalem modifier will be replaced for people with Leviathan by the monument itself, as it can be used by Muslims, Christians and Jewish. For people without Leviathan, the modifier will remain as it is.

About Mecca modifier, it will also remain, as the modifier is only for Christian countries, while the Kaaba monument is restricted to Muslim countries.

No love for Korea...?

It's not like there's a lack of historically important monuments in the Peninsula, nor the lack of Korean players to incentivise doing so - both Japan and China get three monuments each, Korea having zero's kinda sad.

Mt. Paektu is a must, imo. If Jp has Fuji. Why not Korea would have Paektu. Given the Korea and Manchu MT has some flavour related Mt Paektu. Some other korean man made would be nice as well.

We already have some suggestions for Korea in our 'long list', and it's a region where a monument would be worth. Can't promise when we'd be able to add more monuments to the game, we'll have to think about it in the next months.

Dai Viet already has +1 Yearly legitimacy in her ideas. Too much legitimacy in my opinion.
Since the Imperial City of Hue was technically one of many Vietnamese star forts. Maybe you should consider replacing legitimacy with a defense/fort modifier.

Good suggestions. For the moment we'll keep the Legitimacy modifier, but that can be changed in a future version, OFC.

I welcome the new additions, altough i'm pretty saddened by the fact that the only other monument being considered for future addition in Italy is S. Maria del Fiore in Florence. There are plenty of equally iconic buildings in the peninsula, staying on sacred ones you could think of many like the Duomo of Milan or the Holy complex of Pisa with its world renown leaning tower.
I have not understood clearly what you guys think constitues a monument, i think it might have to do with the fact that, i assume, multiple people worked on them so each one of you had a different idea on that and the final outcome wasn't very standardized. For example I'm pretty baffled by the fact that Stonehenge is a monument (maybe you just needed at least one thing for pagans?) while something like the largest industrial complex in Europe before the industrial revolution, the Venetian Arsenal, isn't. No big deal tho, i guess that the list of possible future additions can grow some more!

Again, we already received a lot of good suggestions in Monuments Megathread, for new monuments in Milan, Venice, Pisa, Naples... We'll take that into account and decide when the time comes.

Exciting changes! I’m glad to see that you’re listening to community feedback. While you’re at it, could Moscow’s monument be changed to St. Basil’s Cathedral? That’d make far more historical sense, and it’s what many people (even if wrongly) think of when they hear “Kremlin”, anyway.

Also, while I’m at it, I really hope that the new Monuments mapmode is integrated into an existing mapmode— my candidate being Government— rather than set out all on its own. We have far too many mapmodes that individually don’t provide enough information to be useful, such as Metropolitan (which should really be integrated into the Religious mapmode, along with cardinals).

St. Basil's already suggested as a monument, we'll study about that (although 'The Kremlin' is not so bad IMHO).

About the map mode, it will be a separated one for the moment. Perhaps in the future we could think about doing some merging, but we'll see.

Question: Can something be done with monuments that you don't fullfill requiremtns for? Ideally, if you upgrade them you get nice perks with cultures/relgions that benefit from them: e.g. upgrading one of the monuments that require to be Buddihst will increase tolerance of them in your nation despite your actual religion.

I think that, overall, the requirements system for monuments doesn't work ATM as we'd desire; or, said in other words, that it could work better than it does now. We're already thinking about that for future versions, but I'll ask for some patience to reach a much more satisfying solution to it.

Can we have a mechanic penalizing Pokemoning monuments by bloody rape pillage and murder?

Taking monuments linked to religions/cultures other than one's own should cause a penalty with all nations of said religion/culture at the very least lowering diplomatic relations and probably also increasing revolt risk in provinces of said culture/religion and giving a CB to "reclaim our heritage" to nations of the given religion/culture.

This could have an interesting benefit of actually giving a reason to establish client states/vassals so that the monuments would be owned by (subject) nation of appropriate culture/religion and let one avoid the penalty.

There have been some interesting suggestions along this way of thinking. Again, we'll think if we can revamp the feature to make it more interesting in the future.

Can we have the cathedral of Aachen as a monument. The place where the emperor was crowned? Surely that one was more important than the cathedral of cologne that wasn't even finished until the 19. century or a castle in Austria I didn't even know existed.

Already in Germany's 'long list', with a bunch of other monuments.

Wow, a Vietnam monument, I did not expect this. This is great, my country is getting representation. Thank you a lot Paradox team.

Edit:

@Pavía could we have some change to the Vietnam's mission 'The Imperial Citadel' so that it can be tied in with this monument?

Maybe instead of a 30 development requirement, the mission would require construction of the 1st tier of the monument and a lower requirement in development (maybe 20)? Or maybe, having a discount for construction of the monument as a reward instead of the current reward?

I am new to EU IV so I am not sure if there is other missions for other countries that directly referring to a monument. However, since the Dai Viet's mission and the upcoming monument are both referencing the same object, I just think that it should be connected somehow.

Glad that you're happy about having proper cultural representation. I for me will say that Vietnam is a beautiful country, with lots of interesting monuments, and adding one is worth it, IMHO.

That said, this mission will be changed for 1.31.5, so the reward for it will be adding 1 tier to the monument.

 

[Vin55]

aachen was still more important than cologne because of the throne and the Kaiserpfalz, Frankfurt and Speyer too. ambras is a joke, it was never important, no one knows it and there are better monuments in austria. Pls change it to Vienna Hofburg or even Innsbruck Hofburg was more important in the same province.

 

[Renegade3231]

Will a map mode to find these be added in this patch? More monuments is great, but less so when we can’t even find them.

 

[iClipse]

Will a map mode to find these be added in this patch? More monuments is great, but less so when we can’t even find them.

I think this one is already answered about twice in this thread and multiple times on other places. Yes, it's coming for 1.31.5

 

[Sidolowka]

We already have some suggestions for Korea in our 'long list', and it's a region where a monument would be worth.

Can't promise when we'd be able to add more monuments to the game, we'll have to think about it in the next months.

Well that's still far more promising than 'No we won't give Korea anything'.

 

[LuPoNe]

This constructive criticism and feedback is what was long needed, so thank you all for coming up with interesting ideas and thank you @Pavía for engaging and being the rockstar of the moment!

 

[jdavis86]

I think missionary strength vs heathens would be nice for tier 3 Jerusalem, vs heretics is not really useful, heretics are already easy enough to convert. It doesn't seem worth spending all that money for the bonuses currently in my opinion.

Think it would make sense too vs heathens, "you could your god from religion X allow your holy city to become Y? Y is the real religion" or something along those lines.

Yeah I agree, heretic conversion maybe useful for non-sunni and in the HRE, otherwise who in the region would need it?

 

[wobarch]

as a lot of people are learning something with this game about history I would love it, if there would be a tooltip explaining a bit (maybe just the wikipedia summary) of the monument. But this would just be a cherry on the cake.

 

[Jimmyfeellucky]

as a lot of people are learning something with this game about history I would love it, if there would be a tooltip explaining a bit (maybe just the wikipedia summary) of the monument. But this would just be a cherry on the cake.

Yep just like some important rulers in CK2.
Or maybe also add a historical description of each monument.

 

[Twoflower]

ambras is a joke, it was never important, no one knows it and there are better monuments in austria. Pls change it to Vienna Hofburg or even Innsbruck Hofburg was more important in the same province.

"Important" and "better" are very subjective categories, however I disagree with the low opinion many people on here seem to have about Schloss Ambras.

It is the first museum in the whole world and the only remaining building constructed explicity as a museum from the Renaissance - and as such I would argue that it bears a lot more cultural significance to humanity as a whole than just another palace or cathedral.
The modifiers are perhaps a poor representation of that significance - since it was important as a museum rather than as a military structure, local defensiveness and drill grain do not make much sense. The yearly prestige seems ok, but rather weak - perhaps tech cost reduction or splendor gain?

 

[Skyfus]

Pretty sweet, happy to see Djenne, when are y'all gonna unswap Alhambra and the similarly named Austrian version?

 

[Vin55]

"Important" and "better" are very subjective categories, however I disagree with the low opinion many people on here seem to have about Schloss Ambras.

It is the first museum in the whole world and the only remaining building constructed explicity as a museum from the Renaissance - and as such I would argue that it bears a lot more cultural significance to humanity as a whole than just another palace or cathedral.
The modifiers are perhaps a poor representation of that significance - since it was important as a museum rather than as a military structure, local defensiveness and drill grain do not make much sense. The yearly prestige seems ok, but rather weak - perhaps tech cost reduction or splendor gain?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Ambras well in 1880 witch would fit vic2, there are more important museums in Germany and austria.

It was not used at all for important stuff prior to that. The last direct Habsburg usage was in 1665. Even then it was just a local Lord, less important than for example Blenheim Palace in the UK. It might be a well known renaissance museum in parts of the world, but it should not be a monument.

I think that at least at some point there must have been an important role in the history of the region/world.

 

[Me_]

None of those methods seem like good ideas to me , though I do agree that it would be normal if the player could not make use of more than X monuments.

I think it would be better if there was a "Promote monument" mechanics, which represents your state advertising the monument and making profit from it. Only X Monuments can be promoted, replacing one is costly, and non-promoted monuments don't give country-wide bonuses (though they retain provincial bonuses).
Alternatively, Monuments could have an Upkeep Cost. This would be more realistic (costs of maintaining monuments should be monumental), but it wouldn't stop pokemoning by richer Players, especially in End Game.

I couldn't disagree more.

Some people seem to think of monuments as this great hugfest where people flock around and dance together to the tune of the murderous autocrats that took said monuments from their historical creators.

I cannot fathom where people get the Idea that if e.g. the Tsar of Russia would conquer Rome, drive the pope out and make St. Peter's Cathedral into an Orthodox Church, suddenly all Catholics would cheer and love him. Is this what happened to Hagha Sophia? Did the surviving Aztecs love it when the Spaniards took Tenochtitlan? When the western powers took Beijing (in Vicky's time but the point stand), did the Chinese celebrate foreign troops in the Forbidden Palace?

The revanchism and the want to reclaim stolen monument should be a core part of the system. It shouldn't just be about turning the Relics of Stellaris on and off.

 

[Twoflower]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Ambras well in 1880 witch would fit vic2, there are more important museums in Germany and austria.

It was not used at all for important stuff prior to that. The last direct Habsburg usage was in 1665. Even then it was just a local Lord, less important than for example Blenheim Palace in the UK. It might be a well known renaissance museum in parts of the world, but it should not be a monument.

I think that at least at some point there must have been an important role in the history of the region/world.

Did you actually read that article you linked? It says:

Es ist das erste Museum der Welt und zählt zu den international bedeutendsten Kunstmuseen

It is the world's first museum and is counted among the most important art museums internationally.

The Unterschloss was constructed by Ferdinand II specifically as a museum to host his vast art collection of art and of armour in 1570 and has served in that function ever since.
Having established the concept of a museum as a place to present art and other collections and to make these collections accessible to the public does satisfy the standard of an important role in the history of humanity and the world in my books.

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

I was also confused when Ambras was announced, but when I looked it up the image of it was very familar, and reading about it the museum aspect seems to be quite significant. You didn't read the full Wikipedia article, they built a new part of the castle as a dedicated museum in the 16th century. Innsbruck was quite significant and practically the capital at least during the reign of Maximilian I. so it having a monument kind of makes sense.
Nevertheless there were more obvious choices like the Hofburg in Vienna, which could have a defensive modifier (in the light of the unsuccessful Sieges of Vienna) and/or some Diplomatic Boost (improve relations, diplo rep) as it also contains the imperial treasury with the crown jewels and so on.

I think the choice of the monuments and their modifiers is arbitary by nature, there is probably a tiny amount of obvious choices, but the rest there are always arguments that this was more/less significant and could be replaced by a different one or that some other was more important. In the end one needs to throw a dice whether you rather add Florence cathedral or Milan duomo, or the Doge's Palace or one of the other 100 possible choices in Italy. I think it doesn't make sense to add monuments in every 2nd province, even in such dense areas as Italy.
Of course in some cases there is room for improval such as with Lisbon.

 

[Benito]

I have an idea:
How about dynamic artwork for monuments ? As you upgrade your monument to the next stage, the artwork changes slightly
Kind of like how the art for forts changes in the siege view as the siege progresses. (But obviously in reverse )
I know the art team already has a lot on their plate regarding monuments, so it could be applied on a few of the monuments rather than all of them, and the artwork doesn’t have to change significantly.

for example older monument which were constructed before the games timeline, like the great pyramids could look worn out and rocky, and once you finally upgrade it to the final stage, it’ll look all shiny and white like the days it was first constructed.
For the monuments which were constructed during the games timeline, the beginning stages could show the monuments under construction, and the final stages could show it fully constructed.

I think it’d give a lot more satisfaction to the player too!