Will there be a 5.2 Patch?

[Dafool]

It also comes from the fact that games do not cost as much as a car. For the quite small price that the gamers pay for the game they expect a similar treatement as when buing an object e.g. a car that is worth considerably more. You do not expect a filmmaker to make a new film if the one you bought a ticket for is shoddily done. The game functions properly as per what the Devs intent for it to do in, I'd say, over 95% of cases and the remaining problems are pretty small (although that's only my opinion) yet the complaints are as if the game was unplayable.

I think this is very much the truth. It would be one thing if the game was actually broken, but it's not. Occasionally on the first release, a game or expansion will not work properly (I'm looking at you HoI3), but EU3 has never really had this problem. Not only that, but PI has always been quite good about fixing any major problems ASAP. DW 5.1 is quite playable. People can bitch about hordes and the daimyo all they want, but the fact of the matter is that these are relatively small problems in a vast sea of otherwise enjoyable features.

 

[Pleiades]

I think this is very much the truth. It would be one thing if the game was actually broken, but it's not. Occasionally on the first release, a game or expansion will not work properly (I'm looking at you HoI3), but EU3 has never really had this problem. Not only that, but PI has always been quite good about fixing any major problems ASAP. DW 5.1 is quite playable. People can bitch about hordes and the daimyo all they want, but the fact of the matter is that these are relatively small problems in a vast sea of otherwise enjoyable features.

They are not small problems at all for those who live in Europe and Asia because of role-playing or identification issues. Broken hordes and daimyos are very much influencing flavor. That would be like putting some mysterious overpowered Brazilian hordes in Texas or Big California over New York City area which needs to be colonized first from the West Coast to the East Coast so you can form err... Venezuela, which is like in DW when Bohemia colonize Russia into Siberia or when Castile owns Middle East yet have only 30 percents of Spain (Iberian) peninsula.

 

[Me_]

They are not small problems at all for those who live in Europe and Asia because of role-playing or identification issues. Broken hordes and daimyos are very much influencing flavor. That would be like putting some mysterious overpowered Brazilian hordes in Texas or Big California over New York City area which needs to be colonized first from the West Coast to the East Coast so you can form err... Venezuela, which is like in DW when Bohemia colonize Russia into Siberia or when Castile owns Middle East yet have only 30 percents of Spain (Iberian) peninsula.

I don't think they're going to change the hordes any more. There were plenty of complaints about them during the betas and yet what we have now is the result of those betas. The hordes are a bad game design at their very core going against everything that defines warfare and expansion in EU3. There is simply no way of fixing them and the Devs will never remove them.

 

[Dafool]

They are not small problems at all for those who live in Europe and Asia because of role-playing or identification issues. Broken hordes and daimyos are very much influencing flavor. That would be like putting some mysterious overpowered Brazilian hordes in Texas or Big California over New York City area which needs to be colonized first from the West Coast to the East Coast so you can form err... Venezuela, which is like in DW when Bohemia colonize Russia into Siberia or when Castile owns Middle East yet have only 30 percents of Spain (Iberian) peninsula.

Well, the main problem I have with your points is that they're not much of a reality. It's based on a gross over exaggeration. The hordes are not broken. The Golden Horde is just overpowered at the start. That's it. Nothing else about the hordes is particularly "wrong" from a gameplay standpoint. They can be annoying and a nuisance, but that's WAD. The Daimyo are only broken in that it's impossible to annex all of Japan as an outsider. Now if this was a necessity, or even a common thing, I might imagine it would be a bigger deal, but to be honest it probably only affects a few players going for WC and not many others. The complaints about eastern Europe and Central Asia are moot points. DW did not break these areas. Eastern Europe has almost always been a mess as it gets carved up by various states. This was true long before the hordes were added. And if you recall the good old days of earlier versions, it would the Ottomans, Mamluks, or Ming snaking through Central Asia in weird fashions. Once again, this is a balance issue that has never been fully worked out. I get a distinct feeling that many of the players who complain so readily about these issues don't really have much familiarity with how the game has changed over time. Go back and play the original version of EU3 and you'd be surprised how much has been fixed and changed. DW is a very solid and overall well done expansion. It caused very few problems that haven't been there since before its release.

 

[Pleiades]

Well, the main problem I have with your points is that they're not much of a reality. It's based on a gross over exaggeration. The hordes are not broken. The Golden Horde is just overpowered at the start. That's it. Nothing else about the hordes is particularly "wrong" from a gameplay standpoint. They can be annoying and a nuisance, but that's WAD. The Daimyo are only broken in that it's impossible to annex all of Japan as an outsider. Now if this was a necessity, or even a common thing, I might imagine it would be a bigger deal, but to be honest it probably only affects a few players going for WC and not many others. The complaints about eastern Europe and Central Asia are moot points. DW did not break these areas. Eastern Europe has almost always been a mess as it gets carved up by various states. This was true long before the hordes were added. And if you recall the good old days of earlier versions, it would the Ottomans, Mamluks, or Ming snaking through Central Asia in weird fashions. Once again, this is a balance issue that has never been fully worked out. I get a distinct feeling that many of the players who complain so readily about these issues don't really have much familiarity with how the game has changed over time. Go back and play the original version of EU3 and you'd be surprised how much has been fixed and changed. DW is a very solid and overall well done expansion. It caused very few problems that haven't been there since before its release.

Do not understand me wrong, DW is in many ways much better expansion than previous expansions. DW map alone is very pleasing to the eye, not to mention other great new features.

When I say "broken horde" system I have in mind losing HttT ability to form strong Russia and Ottomans, so we lost two challenges in Europe. There is also boring colonization system if you play Ottomans or Muscowy (in comparison to HttT). Hordes are not nuisance in terms of strategy planing as they are in terms of micromanaging which is step back in comparison to HttT. Click, waiting time until colonist arrive, keeping army while you are waiting, click, wait, keep army and so on for next 30 provinces east of you and doing so from around 1450 until often behind 1650s while nothing is happening on the east because there is no threat after 1500s, because hordes are very weak, but they still exist.

Instead to simulate resistance, tactic and challenges against new emerging powers like they properly did in HttT, DW simulates how long can you resist powers which are in sure historical and gamewise decline. And even when they become extremely weak, you still have another weak new 30 provinces to colonize without any resistance or threat. (Click, wait, keep an army, click, wait, keep an army)

As for daimyos, non-possibility to annex Japan was not the only complain.

 

[Pjstaab]

Broken daimyos is hardly a minor thing seeing how it's one of the points of DW.

 

[King Nothing]

And nobody have mentioned the clicking problem. That is one major pain during some parts of the game. Impossible to click on a stationary fleet while another fleet is sailing, how is that not broken?

True. DW is in many ways a better game than it was before but in many ways it's also worse. That's not good for something sold to be an improvement. Above all, it's not good for Paradox if they get a reputation based on how they have handled DW. I have recommended EU3 for quite a lot of people over the years, have I recommended it since DW came? No.

 

[Me_]

Broken daimyos is hardly a minor thing seeing how it's one of the points of DW.

So the point of DW is conquering Japan as an outside nation? Or is there something else broken with the Daimyos?

And nobody have mentioned the clicking problem. That is one major pain during some parts of the game. Impossible to click on a stationary fleet while another fleet is sailing, how is that not broken?

I'd reccomend posting it as a bug report. I'm under the impression that a lot of the remaining problems end up discussed on the main forum instead of the bug forum and that doesn't increase their chanses of being fixed seeing as the Devs don't visit the main forum any more.

 

[Dafool]

Do not understand me wrong, DW is in many ways much better expansion than previous expansions. DW map alone is very pleasing to the eye, not to mention other great new features.

When I say "broken horde" system I have in mind losing HttT ability to form strong Russia and Ottomans, so we lost two challenges in Europe. There is also boring colonization system if you play Ottomans or Muscowy (in comparison to HttT). Hordes are not nuisance in terms of strategy planing as they are in terms of micromanaging which is step back in comparison to HttT. Click, waiting time until colonist arrive, keeping army while you are waiting, click, wait, keep army and so on for next 30 provinces east of you and doing so from around 1450 until often behind 1650s while nothing is happening on the east because there is no threat after 1500s, because hordes are very weak, but they still exist.

Instead to simulate resistance, tactic and challenges against new emerging powers like they properly did in HttT, DW simulates how long can you resist powers which are in sure historical and gamewise decline. And even when they become extremely weak, you still have another weak new 30 provinces to colonize without any resistance or threat. (Click, wait, keep an army, click, wait, keep an army)

As for daimyos, non-possibility to annex Japan was not the only complain.

Very reasonable points. My concern is when people complain that hordes have ruined the game and other over exaggerations. I, like so many others, would surely agree that there are balance issues that should be addressed, but it's frustrating when people assume that one problem, which more less existed before DW, is killing the game. The micromanagement and gameplay issues are valid, but not really game breaking IMO. The problem with adding "automated" or "AI" solutions for the player to use is that they often don't turn out as useful as people hoped. The auto-rebel hunting feature is a good example. It answered a long heard call for such a feature, but it's hard to make it work perfectly in a game this complex.

 

[Pleiades]

If break - broke - broken is too strong word, then I guess me and other natural non-English speakers will have to improve our English knowledge even more.

Very well, we understand now each other. Game is not broken. It is unbalanced. Luckily, there are also mods which improve unbalanced things in vanilla game.

 

[Me_]

Very reasonable points. My concern is when people complain that hordes have ruined the game and other over exaggerations. I, like so many others, would surely agree that there are balance issues that should be addressed, but it's frustrating when people assume that one problem, which more less existed before DW, is killing the game. The micromanagement and gameplay issues are valid, but not really game breaking IMO. The problem with adding "automated" or "AI" solutions for the player to use is that they often don't turn out as useful as people hoped. The auto-rebel hunting feature is a good example. It answered a long heard call for such a feature, but it's hard to make it work perfectly in a game this complex.

Well, the hordes certainly did not ruin the game but they are a source of frustration for numerous players as they force them to play the game contrary to how it was played until DW (I mean here the fact that hordes require being at constant war for the sake of expansion and render peace treaties semi-useless which is more of a staple of Civilization games than EU not to mention the fact that they incorporate the rather micromanagement-heavy colonisation right in the middle of another micromanagement-heavy aspect of the game - war).

 

[Dafool]

Well, the hordes certainly did not ruin the game but they are a source of frustration for numerous players as they force them to play the game contrary to how it was played until DW (I mean here the fact that hordes require being at constant war for the sake of expansion and render peace treaties semi-useless which is more of a staple of Civilization games than EU not to mention the fact that they incorporate the rather micromanagement-heavy colonisation right in the middle of another micromanagement-heavy aspect of the game - war).

Like I said, they're not perfect and I'm certainly not going to defend them as the best designed addition to the game, but many people have condemned them as game breaking for various reasons when overall they're not really that extremely different from what we had before. The revamp of the HRE and the inclusion of the new building system both were met with severe criticism when first unveiled, largely because they were unbalanced, but with a bit of hindsight we can see that these things have improved certain aspects of the game. I think people should get over this illusion that hordes must be removed and instead focus on how they might be balanced or fixed. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people doing just that, but there is a rather vocal number of players who have (quite literally) argued with and insulted the mods and developers over the inclusion of this feature and that type of criticism isn't constructive at all.

 

[CSARebel]

I would like to weigh back in...the hordes are not fun. My suggestion is to allow provinces to be given up by the horde, colonist can flip the culture, the horde can try to retake whenever they feel froggy. This was posted without alot of thought as to all repercussions, so feel free to point them out.

Paradox will fix this, they always do.

 

[George LeS]

Like I said, they're not perfect and I'm certainly not going to defend them as the best designed addition to the game, but many people have condemned them as game breaking for various reasons when overall they're not really that extremely different from what we had before. The revamp of the HRE and the inclusion of the new building system both were met with severe criticism when first unveiled, largely because they were unbalanced, but with a bit of hindsight we can see that these things have improved certain aspects of the game. I think people should get over this illusion that hordes must be removed and instead focus on how they might be balanced or fixed. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people doing just that, but there is a rather vocal number of players who have (quite literally) argued with and insulted the mods and developers over the inclusion of this feature and that type of criticism isn't constructive at all.

You make a good point. But there is on thing not clearly seen here (or by many others here). That is, to say a game is "broken" (not my preferred term) really means that, for the speaker, it's no fun to play. Each of us has different tastes and interests, and of course that means that what turns one off, is not a big deal to another. Look back to the old pirate discussions for an indication of what I mean.

Personally, the hordes don't bother me much, although I agree with most of what the anti-horde posters say. My relative indifference is solely due to my not playing much against hordes. Similarly, most players aren't moved so much as I by the naval issues, on which I post ad nauseum.

That said, the point is simply how many dislike a feature, and how much they dislike it. For myself, I really stopped playing (and eventually, modding) after 5.2. It was a severe disappointment to me. What gets me is that the naval game is now worse than in HT (which was no great shakes, either). But at least the game showed improvement over the series from 1.0 through 4.1. Now, it is just worse than before. And I cannot get up interest to play it.

Also, the complaints on unit selection are very much on target. Again, in this respect, an existing feature was simply degraded.

Really, selection and reorganisation have been worse in EUIII than in EUII. This puzzles me, and is not an isolated case. The ledger is clumsier than in EUII, and the maps are incomparable less functional. They look nice, true, but it's a lot more work to get info which, in the earlier game, could be read at a glance, or with the sweep of a mouse.

Bottom line: I am exactly one (1) gamer, albeit going back to EU. Like everyone else, I speak only for myself. But they've pretty much lost me, at least for the time being. It's not a case of angry refusal to play the game, as it was with pirates for a while. It's rather a case of loading, starting, and then realizing I just don't feel like playing it. The fun is gone, for me, anyway. I keep coming here to see what's up, but I cannot even get up the interest in fixing my own mod.

EU-Blah. That's how I feel.

 

[Pleiades]

@Dafool
Give up, man! We are all grumpy today probably because of stronger solar flares, which means game is broken! ROFL

 

[Pjstaab]

So the point of DW is conquering Japan as an outside nation? Or is there something else broken with the Daimyos?

Since the AI is incapable of forming Japan itself, yes.

 

[Firehound15]

Well, this has kinda turned from being a simple question, to being a war over wether the game is broken.

 

[unmerged(11600)]

... the rather micromanagement-heavy colonisation right in the middle of another micromanagement-heavy aspect of the game - war).

Four extra clicks spread out over the course of 2~3 years is 'micromanagement-heavy'? What part of the game do you consider not micromanagement?

-Pat

 

[King Nothing]

You make a good point. But there is on thing not clearly seen here (or by many others here). That is, to say a game is "broken" (not my preferred term) really means that, for the speaker, it's no fun to play. Each of us has different tastes and interests, and of course that means that what turns one off, is not a big deal to another. Look back to the old pirate discussions for an indication of what I mean.

Personally, the hordes don't bother me much, although I agree with most of what the anti-horde posters say. My relative indifference is solely due to my not playing much against hordes. Similarly, most players aren't moved so much as I by the naval issues, on which I post ad nauseum.

That said, the point is simply how many dislike a feature, and how much they dislike it. For myself, I really stopped playing (and eventually, modding) after 5.2. It was a severe disappointment to me. What gets me is that the naval game is now worse than in HT (which was no great shakes, either). But at least the game showed improvement over the series from 1.0 through 4.1. Now, it is just worse than before. And I cannot get up interest to play it.

Also, the complaints on unit selection are very much on target. Again, in this respect, an existing feature was simply degraded.

Really, selection and reorganisation have been worse in EUIII than in EUII. This puzzles me, and is not an isolated case. The ledger is clumsier than in EUII, and the maps are incomparable less functional. They look nice, true, but it's a lot more work to get info which, in the earlier game, could be read at a glance, or with the sweep of a mouse.

Bottom line: I am exactly one (1) gamer, albeit going back to EU. Like everyone else, I speak only for myself. But they've pretty much lost me, at least for the time being. It's not a case of angry refusal to play the game, as it was with pirates for a while. It's rather a case of loading, starting, and then realizing I just don't feel like playing it. The fun is gone, for me, anyway. I keep coming here to see what's up, but I cannot even get up the interest in fixing my own mod.

EU-Blah. That's how I feel.

Very good point and I feel exactly the same. The game is not broken in the term that it's a car that has lost it's engine, the game is broken as in it's a car that got a hole in the exhaust-system that leads the fumes into where I sit. Sure, it totally works if it's a really hot day and I'm driving slowly so it's comfortable with the windows open, but if not, it's just not something I want to drive..

I have played one game of DW and I have a hard time believing it will be a second unless something is done to fix the exhaust-system.

And I'm not sure here but to me it seems that a lot of the old timers have been lost to this forum for quite some time now. I'm here here sometimes but almost never posts, GeorgeLeS doesn't post much, I have seen one or two posts by Junuxx, the same thing with GAGAextrem and it's the same with most of the others. EU3 seem to have lost a lot of the veterans with the coming of DW and that's a very, very bad sign.

 

[Me_]

Four extra clicks spread out over the course of 2~3 years is 'micromanagement-heavy'? What part of the game do you consider not micromanagement?

-Pat

It's not just four extra clicks unless you somehow do not experience the horde sending tons of troops to retake those provinces, random revolts from long occupation doing the same, tribal succesion crisises that the player must fight in horde lands. And I have no idea how you manage to take provinces from the hordes in 2-3 years. In my experience that's hardly enough for 1 province to flip.