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Werewolf General Planning Thread

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I think we should at least run one more variant of Meso before concluding it needs drastic changes. Both games have been afflicted with fail seers, fail villagers, zombies, and in the former case my dastardly skills as a wolf. So I'm not yet convinced that it's decisively unfavorable to villagers.
 
Vainglory said:
I think we should at least run one more variant of Meso before concluding it needs drastic changes. Both games have been afflicted with fail seers, fail villagers, zombies, and in the former case my dastardly skills as a wolf. So I'm not yet convinced that it's decisively unfavorable to villagers.
Click to expand...

What's your take on letting wolves hunt each other versus forbidding it?
 
Bagricula said:
What's your take on letting wolves hunt each other versus forbidding it?
Click to expand...

I think it favors the wolves significantly as compared to your setup, but it might be a necessary rule for balance reasons. I am not decided yet.

In your setup my pack benefited from the cooperation of Tami and Napoleon. After Snoopdogg died they didn't choose to hunt one of us, and we didn't choose to hunt one of them. Tami said that his pack was poised to betray us when Napoleon got outed, and after that he opted for a wolf victory.

If Tami and Napoleon had decided to hunt us to even the odds it would have been 2-2 which changes a lot. Parity is further away for one. And if we'd retaliated... if they'd expected retaliation... if we'd predicted their attack and struck as well, and then it happened again, we'd end up with 1 wolf and over a dozen villagers.

Imagine if the packs were composed of people who hate each other and don't cooperate from the start, instead of helping the surviving pack to win. It could easily end up with a village victory without them even doing anything.

The downside of barring them from hunting one another is that the wolves know that they need only fear lynches. Makes them significantly stronger.They can't destroy one another as quickly, paranoia doesn't make them accidentally turn on one another. Najs balanced it with fewer wolves. It somewhat dilutes the "prisoner dilemma" concept though.

Banning it makes the game much more stable, I think. It also probably favors analysis more, because wolves will probably vote for one another at the first chance they get, whereas with your setup the wolves can be cooperating and voting for one another, or cooperating and not voting for one another.
 
I have to admit that I do not consider Meso a very good idea any more, at least not in the way Baggy and I have done it. The two hunts/night really makes the life for the village hard and parity approaches too fast for my taste. Meso might work if we had a village used to analysing etc, but as of now? Too hard. I suggest we go back to Lite and replace the seer with a GA or something instead.
 
One of the unfortunate bits about playing on a forum is that you can't control private communications.

Imagine a Meso game where the two packs don't know each other's hunts. That increases the odds of them hunting the same target. But there's no way to guarantee that they don't talk to one another if they know each other...
 
I know I'm fairly new to WV still, but I have been thinking over light and meso. As I see it and read all your comments, the problem is that if the wolves don't get the seer in the first few days, theres an extremely good chance that the village wins. At the moment most, if not all, comments have been looking at removing or nerfing the seer. Why not look at this the opposite way and keep the setup as it is (12/4/1), but give 1 or 2 of the wolves a one time sorc.scan? This will give a slight boost to the wolves without speeding the game up, like Meso is doing with 3 deaths per day. Unless there's a lucky lynch day 1, the wolves should be able to get both scans through if there's 2.

Just my 2 cents.
 
That's actually not too bad an idea. There's precedence too, given once upon a time sorcerors were occaisionally used in Lite.
 
What if we gave all the wolves the scan, but make it so that only one scan could be made per night and that there was a chance their hunt would fail if one of the wolves was scanning(Like 75% chance of success when 3/4 wolves are hunting, 66% when 2/3 wolves are hunting, etc.)?
 
Here is a post about WW setups in a forum I found (http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?30484-Guide-on-Werewolf-Roles-and-Game-Setup):
Guide on Werewolf Roles and Game Setup

The purpose of this thread is to go over the background of the best way to set up fair werewolf games, and also, it goes over additional roles that haven't been used yet in game that I think you guys may be interested in at some point.

This thread is long and probably the only person that might read it all is usfreedom

So with that in mind,

I base all of this on this site:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=151417

which is a site dedicated solely to werewolf (they call it mafia) made up of basically werewolf hypernerds, whom have all played thousands of games, and so I trust them on how they have come to the conclusion on these game mechanics.

The most important thing in setting up a werewolf game is balancing each side. This is done by attributing the worth of various roles in the game. You can have as many or as few roles as you want, and as long as the point values are close to equal, the game is going to be relatively "fair" at the beginning.

Basic Roles you already know about:

Villager = 1pt
Wolf = 4.5 pts
Seer = 4 pts
Angel = 3 pts
Outsider = -.5pts

*In addition, a night zero start with a peek for seer (the way we've always started games) is an additional 2pts to village.

So, for example, in a game with 13 players with 3 wolves, the game might be something like:

3 wolves = 13.5 pts
10 villagers = (9 regular villagers + Seer + Nightzero peek) = 15pts

Which, based on the varying skill of the village, is an overall balanced game.

In my next post, I will go over various new roles that we have yet to try.
 
If you want analysis then you need to give the villagers time. That said, both Meso setups actually took longer to reach parity than Lites in 12/4/1. The real killer for the village is that analysis is virtually impossible because you need to detect patterns, and there is virtually no pattern with two packs of wolves who cooperate and then turn on one another.

So one pack is the way to go to foster analysis, and if you want to give them time then 4/15 is better than 3/12. With Night 0 the shortest time to parity is 5 and 4 days respectively. I definitely favor 4/15 or even 4/16 with Night 0 which would take six days to parity, but a tie would bring parity closer, whereas 4/15 takes five days but a single tie of 2 players doesn't bring parity closer. But definitely the larger setup is the way to go. With that in place it'll be up to the village to use good tactics to defeat the wolves.
 
Vainglory said:
If you want analysis then you need to give the villagers time. That said, both Meso setups actually took longer to reach parity than Lites in 12/4/1. The real killer for the village is that analysis is virtually impossible because you need to detect patterns, and there is virtually no pattern with two packs of wolves who cooperate and then turn on one another.

So one pack is the way to go to foster analysis, and if you want to give them time then 4/15 is better than 3/12. With Night 0 the shortest time to parity is 5 and 4 days respectively. I definitely favor 4/15 or even 4/16 with Night 0 which would take six days to parity, but a tie would bring parity closer, whereas 4/15 takes five days but a single tie of 2 players doesn't bring parity closer. But definitely the larger setup is the way to go. With that in place it'll be up to the village to use good tactics to defeat the wolves.
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I will most definitely use a setup without night 0 as without seer it is just a way for the wolves to kill their enemies and it actually does not offer anything for analysis to the village except for the stuff like 'hunted due to metagame' etc.
 
@Vainglory

Regarding the point values. As far as I can see they are based on games in which no PMs are allowed for the goodies. (baddies can use PM during the night).
This makes a big difference with our games in which PM's are allowed. I guess that the value of the seer would be much higher in our games.

Regarding the points for the night 0 scan. I guess they are allowed for a free scan, but that there is no hunt during that night.
Again a difference with the games we play here.

I think you need to be careful not to compare apples and oranges.
 
AVN said:
@Vainglory

Regarding the point values. As far as I can see they are based on games in which no PMs are allowed for the goodies. (baddies can use PM during the night).
This makes a big difference with our games in which PM's are allowed. I guess that the value of the seer would be much higher in our games.

Regarding the points for the night 0 scan. I guess they are allowed for a free scan, but that there is no hunt during that night.
Again a difference with the games we play here.

I think you need to be careful not to compare apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

Why the @ Vainglory in there?

Just to clarify, I drafted that whole message prior to Ath posting the point values thing. What I said has nothing to do with point values.
 
AVN said:
@Vainglory

Regarding the point values. As far as I can see they are based on games in which no PMs are allowed for the goodies. (baddies can use PM during the night).
This makes a big difference with our games in which PM's are allowed. I guess that the value of the seer would be much higher in our games.

Regarding the points for the night 0 scan. I guess they are allowed for a free scan, but that there is no hunt during that night.
Again a difference with the games we play here.

I think you need to be careful not to compare apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

I have not said anything about making the point rules I posted as something set in stone. I just wanted to see your reaction here - you know, when there are still the same people talking, the final opinion will slowly become distorted so I am now just looking through the internet to see different setups, ideas,...

Btw, I posted this because of my planned no seer game so the actual point value of seer and/or his night 0 scan is not the thing why I posted this.
 
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