Vassal Levies In Same Duchy Wide Size Difference

[DaveyDave]

I have two vassals (Counts) in the same Duchy, one with opinion 100, the other with opinion -95. They are direct vassals, I am the Duke, and King (consisting of the other Duchy). (Conclave Expansion)

The +100 Count (Vincente) can raise 121 out of 838 troops.
The -95 Count (Brian) can raise 265 out of 1307 troops.

Count Vincente seems to get a modifier that Brian does not. Ofc, I don't understand why, since they are in the same Duchy, and both my direct vassals.

Illustration provided. Explanation appreciated.

 

[Maggotsgar]

Does one province have more holdings than the other?
Is it better upgraded?
How big is the diffrence in martial?

 

[Ilyasviel]

You can raise 106 men from Brian, not 265. 265 is the potential maximum.

 

[DaveyDave]

You can raise 106 men from Brian, not 265. 265 is the potential maximum.

Yes, thank for the correction. The images are more clear than my text.
Potential maximum . . . under current law, or if the law is set to maximum?
Why is there a modifier in Vincente which isn't present in Brian?
The tool tip explanations don't make a whole lot of sense. The vassal obligation is set throughout the realm at balanced for nobles. Vincente has 838 levy troops (not garrison), and a 100% opinion, yet is only able to provide 121 troops. If I spent 25 years setting the vassal obligation to max troops, he would provide 201 troops? It looks to me like the vassal obligation modifiers are erroneously applied twice.
Also, note the other vassals - they have fewer levy troops and are able to provide twice as much as Vincente and Brian. Very strange.

 

[DaveyDave]

Here is the Wiki on Vassal Obligations from Conclave. It is impressively non-explanatory. Minimum of what number? Maximum of what number?



Take Vincente, from above. He has 832 troops, and obligation is set to balanced.

832 (+40% minimum - doesn't explain what the minimum is), (-40% maximum - presumably, the maximum would be 832)
Max: 60% of 832 is 499. Since Vincente has a 100% opinion, one wonders why under this obligation law his contribution isn't 499.
Min: +40% minimum of what number? doesn't say. Multiple searches with different terms yield no adequate or clear explanation.

Equally confusing is the fact that other vassals, in a different Duchy but subject to the exact same laws (and with the same technology), they are able to levy far more troops proportionately.

In the case of Vincente, despite having 100% opinion, regardless of all the percentages indicated in the Conclave wiki, he is providing 14.4% of his levy troops. How does this reconcile with the numbers in the wiki?

 

[DPS]

Take Vincente, from above. He has 832 troops, and obligation is set to balanced.

832 (+40% minimum - doesn't explain what the minimum is), (-40% maximum - presumably, the maximum would be 832)
Max: 60% of 832 is 499. Since Vincente has a 100% opinion, one wonders why under this obligation law his contribution isn't 499.
Min: +40% minimum of what number? doesn't say. Multiple searches with different terms yield no adequate or clear explanation.

Equally confusing is the fact that other vassals, in a different Duchy but subject to the exact same laws (and with the same technology), they are able to levy far more troops proportionately.

In the case of Vincente, despite having 100% opinion, regardless of all the percentages indicated in the Conclave wiki, he is providing 14.4% of his levy troops. How does this reconcile with the numbers in the wiki?

He doesn't have 832 troops. That's how many troops he could raise from his country (I assume that both of the vassals you're dealing with here only own the capital of their country and not any other holdings), given his martial rating, his marshal's martial rating, and the improvements in his holding, and if his marshal is training troops, not leading them or doing something else. But his levy isn't full--it's only at 201 of the 838. Since your obligation law for feudal vassals is Balanced, he will only be able to provide you with 60% (100% - 40% = 60%) of the levy, which is 121. Because his opinion of you is at 100%, there is no further reduction in the number he will provide you.

The other count, Brian, given his martial rating, his marshal's martial rating, and the improvements in his holding, could, if his marshal is training troops, have 1307 men in his levy. But again, his levy isn't full--it's only at 265 men. If his opinion of you was at 100%, he would provide you with 60% of them, or 159 men. Because of his poor opinion of you, that is further reduced. Since the minimum he can provide you is 40% of his levy, he'll only give you 106 men.

The technology level in the counties doesn't directly affect how large the levy can be; it just affects which improvements can be built. Brian may simply have built more of the improvement that the current technology in the counties allows. Or perhaps he and/or his marshal have higher martial ratings than Vincente and his marshal, or Brian's marshal has been training troops and Vincente's hasn't.

 

[DaveyDave]

He doesn't have 832 troops. That's how many troops he could raise from his country (I assume that both of the vassals you're dealing with here only own the capital of their country and not any other holdings), given his martial rating, his marshal's martial rating, and the improvements in his holding, and if his marshal is training troops, not leading them or doing something else. But his levy isn't full--it's only at 201 of the 838. Since your obligation law for feudal vassals is Balanced, he will only be able to provide you with 60% (100% - 40% = 60%) of the levy, which is 121. Because his opinion of you is at 100%, there is no further reduction in the number he will provide you.

The other count, Brian, given his martial rating, his marshal's martial rating, and the improvements in his holding, could, if his marshal is training troops, have 1307 men in his levy. But again, his levy isn't full--it's only at 265 men. If his opinion of you was at 100%, he would provide you with 60% of them, or 159 men. Because of his poor opinion of you, that is further reduced. Since the minimum he can provide you is 40% of his levy, he'll only give you 106 men.

The technology level in the counties doesn't directly affect how large the levy can be; it just affects which improvements can be built. Brian may simply have built more of the improvement that the current technology in the counties allows. Or perhaps he and/or his marshal have higher martial ratings than Vincente and his marshal, or Brian's marshal has been training troops and Vincente's hasn't.

Both levies were full as were the garrisons. Full red bars on all titles in each county. No war in many, many years. ("owns 838 troops in total") That's why it seems like something is wrong, or something isn't being explained properly in the tooltips or wiki. With all bars full for all titles, and at balanced settings, that you would only get 14% of the troops seems very much at odds with the percentages given in the wiki -- and also why does the tooltip for Vincente indicate an additional penalty, when the tip for Brian does not (guessing because it doesn't apply because his opinion is so low we are only dealing with a minimum levy anyway).

What I'd like to see is a mathematical breakdown of given this many troops in the levy, levy full, and at this obligation level, X number of troops should be able to be called up. 121 out of 832 seems wrong given the information available.

Thanks for your explanation in any case. I'll keep checking.

 

[Dragatus]

Shows us the breakdown of their troop numbers in their character screens. They might have retinues or event troops, which increase the number of troops but don't contribute to the levies they can give you.

 

[DaveyDave]

I can provide the screens for a new example I'm about to give you - saved for Levy Analysis.

Going back again to Count Vincente of Desmond.

Current Obligation Level:
Noble: Levy Shifted. 50% minimum/-30% Maximum
City : Tax Shifted. 20% minimum/-60% Maximum
Bishopric : Normal. 20% minimum/-60% Maximum

Opinion: 100

Readout of troops on the county screens

Castle : 601 (of which 17 are galleys) ~584 troops
Bishopric : 418 (of which 11 are galleys) ~407 troops (note: bishop opinion of Vincente is also 100)
City : 504 (of which 18 are galleys) ~486 troops

"Raise Liege Levy" button on the country screen: 131 troops.

Don't really care too much about the bishopric or city troops. The troops numbers are far below what the castle alone should provide as best I understand things at present.

On the Military screen:

138/138 196/749

"Count Vincente could provide at most 196 troops. Of this you are able to raise 70% (138) due to opinion 100% and laws -30%"

Notes:

1. The total number of troops provided in the levy (138), represents 23.6% of the Castle Levy (which is full) of 584 troops.
2. 584 * 30% * 70% is 122.6. Add a few to this, representing the contribution of city and bishopric troops, and what you have, I think, is this:

- The top troop number, the full levy, is 584, and what the game says is the "- 30% max" is actually being used to reduce the levy by 70%. The opposite of what it's supposed to do.

If there is a better explanation I'd certainly like to hear it. It seems a bit daft that with a 100 opinion vassal, who also has a 100 opinion bishop, that out of the 1477 troops in the castle, bishopric, and city levies (not the garrisons), all of which are full, you would get 138 troops for field use, less than 9.4% of the entire levy. There's no way this reconciles with the numbers for percentages in the wiki at these contribution levels.

3. Also note the discrepancy between the county and military screens as to the size of the troops which will be raised: 131 vs 138.

4. Unmodded game with the DLC indicated in my profile.

5. 1477 * 50% * 50% * 30% = 110. Again, it seems to me that the low levy numbers are due to the application of one of the obligation percentages being applied twice, or incorrectly. That's the only way you can get down to less than 9.4% of the total levy available. It seems to me that the "minimum" is applied twice to the entity twice at the respective contribution level for that entity, and then the "max" is applied to that result. The "minimum" should only be applied once.

Images

 

[Chnapy]

There is a better explanation, and it's needlessly complicated.

The troops a vassal could provide at most (201 and 265 in your first example) is calculated from the sum of the current max levy of every holding that a vassal controls, directly or otherwise. For your counts its most likely the sum of their castle's levy plus any bishopric/city/castle barony's levy from their county.

Edit : then i typed a frigging long rant that's only marginally relevant to the point at hand. The TL;DR is that you only get a fraction of that number as the levies you could actually get at most, and that the farthest your vassals are from your capital, the smaller that fraction will be.

Spoiler

But if you sum all of these levies yourself you'll notice you get a much higher number, why is that? Simply put, that number is multiplied by a modifier that i'll call De Jure Distance modifier. For each tier of "De Jure distance" between a holding and your capital, there is a specific modifier that goes down the farther apart the two are.

If they're in the same county, the modifier is 50%.
In the same de juee duchy, it goes down to 37.5%.
In the same de jure kingdom, it goes even further down, to 25%.
In the same de jure empire, it goes down to 17.5%
And finally if they're not in the same de jure empire it falls to just 12.5%

You can check that easily by comparing baron vassals' troop they could provide at most to their current maximum levy : for a mayor in your capital it should be half of their levy, and go down the faryher you go from your capital.

Additionally, de jure distance isn't enough : you need to avtually own a title that both the holding and your capital are de jure vassals of, otherwise you get the "different de jure empire" modifier. A few examples :
As the duke of munster, you conquer the whole duchy, along with the county of connacht. Your capital is in desmond, you get 37.5% of the levies from thomond and ormond. Since you don't own the kingdom of ireland, you only get 12.5% of the levies from connacht.
As the king of Italy and Corsica/Sardinia, your capital is in the duchy of latium. You get 37.5% of the troops in latium, 25% of the troops everywhere else in italy. You only get 12.5% of the troops in sardinia, because you don't own the empire of italia, whom Italy and Corsica/Sardinia are both de jure vassals of.
As the Byzantine Emperor, you control land in greece, anatolia, and syria. Your capital is in Constantinople. You get 37.5%of the troops in thrake. You get 25% of the troops from greece even though you don't own the kingdom, because owning the empire is enough. You get 17.5% of the troops in anatolia, but only 12.5% of the troops in syria, as it is in a different de jure empire.

Note that this is calculated on a per holding basis, not per vassal. If a vassal of yours has his capital in your capital kingdom but owns some land in a different de jure empire, you'll get 25% of the troops from holdings in your kingdom, and just 12.5% from the ones outside your de jure empire.

This modifier

So that's why your vassals give you a very low amount of all the troops they own. Now why the troops they'd give you are different from the levies they personally have (even though they have the same modifier, being in the same duchy. Is because the two are only loosely connected) If you sum the max levies from every holding in desmond, you should get a number around 1608 (because the different de jure empire between brittany and ireland means 12.5% modifier). If you do the same for thomond, you should find something like 2120.

Edit2 : Note that the modifier i mentionned should be the only one not visible in game, and should be the missing link between the sum of every holding's levy and the max troops a vasal could theoretically provide. Every other modifier (opinion, vassal obligations, crown authority) is displayed when applicable. Also i forgot to account for boats but as far as i know they are calculated separately, so you should remove them from the total levy when you add everything up.

Edit3 : actually took the time to read your last post, let's have a look at the numbers.
Your vassals provides you with a levy of 138, including 7 boats. 196*0.7 is 137.2, so we know the troops provided at most (192) include the boats. Now if we sum every levy up, with boats, we get
601+418+504 = 1523
If we apply the "different de jure empire" modifier (12.5%) we get
1523*0.125 = 190.375 i think (im using my only calculator to type this so.....)
That's a bit low compared to the theoretical 196, although it could be the result of a rounding error(or an error on my part, that's also possible), but you can try and look at more numbers and see if it checks out. It's much faster with barons since they have no vassals, so the sum of every levy they control is just their demesne levy, displayed directly in the military tab.

 

[DaveyDave]

There is a better explanation, and it's needlessly complicated.

. . . So that's why your vassals give you a very low amount of all the troops they own. Now why the troops they'd give you are different from the levies they personally have (even though they have the same modifier, being in the same duchy. Is because the two are only loosely connected) If you sum the max levies from every holding in desmond, you should get a number around 1608 (because the different de jure empire between brittany and ireland means 12.5% modifier). If you do the same for thomond, you should find something like 2120.

Edit2 : Note that the modifier i mentionned should be the only one not visible in game, and should be the missing link between the sum of every holding's levy and the max troops a vasal could theoretically provide. Every other modifier (opinion, vassal obligations, crown authority) is displayed when applicable. Also i forgot to account for boats but as far as i know they are calculated separately, so you should remove them from the total levy when you add everything up.

Thanks, that helps a bit. As I mentioned, the total number of ground troops available in the County is 1477. The levy being provided is 131 or 138 (depending on which number is reliable from the two different screens). This amounts to less than 9.4% of the available levy. And, as I also mentioned, with the top vassal at 100 opinion, and the bishop at 100 for that top vassal. The Realm capital is Cornouille - across the water in Brittany. Am I wrong in assuming that, based on the obligation levels (no more than one notch from the center for all entities, that there's no way this percentage of the total levy, 9.4%, could be derived in this case? I own the whole Duchy of Munster, and the realm is the Petty Kingdom of Brittany (which is just a jumped up Duchy, not an actual "Kingdom of Brittany.").

From what you are saying, it seems that if I converted to Kingdom of Brittany, I might get a higher percentage. Still higher, if I were able to form the Kingdom of Ireland.

 

[Chnapy]

Yeah man sorry i made plenty of edits when i should have just taken the time to read everything in the first place.

There are three numbers at play here :

The sum of every holding's levy (including boats), 1523.

The troops your vassal could provide you with at most (still with boats), 196.

The troops your vassals will actually provide (boats included), 138. The 131 you see in the county view is the same number, minus the boats.

You go from the first number to the second one using that de jure modifer. 1523*0.125 = 196 (sort of, i think the discrepancy comes from the fact that boats use different modifiers, try it in a boatless province and you should get the right number).

You go from the second number to the third using the modifiers that are visible in game : the maximum set by law multiplied by opinion, or the minimum set by law, whichever is higher. Here you maximum set by law is 70%, opinion is 100% and minimum is 40%, so you use 70%*100%, since it is higher than 40%. 196*70% = 138 (rounding up).



Yet one more Edit: cause i'll never learn
Your numbers for galleys don't add up, the castle only has 7 of them, not 17. Assuming the other numbers are right, the first number shouldn't be 1523 but 1513. Now 1513*0.125 don't add up to 196 either, but it fits my theory, that boats use de jure modifiers that are twice as high as the one used for troops.
You get exactly 7 boats in the 70% troops you get in the end. Meaning before that modifier, you had 10 (so 196 is 186+10 boats).

38 boats (the total number if only the castle's boat count was wrong) multiplied by 0.125 should be 4.75, or 5 rounded up (every number is rounded up at this part of the calculation). Which is why i hypothesize that you get a percentage of total boats that is twice as high as the percentage of total troops you get.