The reformation should also create Antitrinitarian religion(s)

[Fighter1st]

The reformation saw the creation of antitrinitarian Christian denominations, Socinianism, Unitarianism and the resurgence of Arianism. Unitarianism played a big role in the edict of Torda in Transylvania, one of the earliest Christian edicts of religious tolerance, while the various antitrinitarian sects influenced on the formation and development of American society. Bogomilism is already confirmed to be in, and is a good deal less relevant of a denomination in the time period of this game, antitrinitarian Christianity should also be represented in some way.

 

[William the Merry]

Bogolmism is more relevant in the balkans for its people often converting to Islam. Unitarianism not particularly relevant to state religion in period

 

[Nnorm]

or make you own church

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Bogolmism is more relevant in the balkans for its people often converting to Islam. Unitarianism not particularly relevant to state religion in period

I mean, kind of in Transylvania

 

[William the Merry]

I mean, kind of in Transylvania

For transylvania and moldavia veey briefly for a ruler or two, so best more a ruler modifier for them as protestants ala old hussites

 

[DominusNovus]

Unitarianism not particularly relevant to state religion in period

Well, yes and no. In the New England colonies, each colony (usually) had a state church. They were generally Congregationalist. The issue, however, is that Congregationalists could be either trinitarian or unitarian. In fact the dispute between the two sides is basically what led to the dis-establishment of a state church in the states.

(which, btw, seems truly bizarre to me, that you could have such diametrically opposed beliefs in the same denomination)

 

[pheonicia]

Well, yes and no. In the New England colonies, each colony (usually) had a state church. They were generally Congregationalist. The issue, however, is that Congregationalists could be either trinitarian or unitarian. In fact the dispute between the two sides is basically what led to the dis-establishment of a state church in the states.

(which, btw, seems truly bizarre to me, that you could have such diametrically opposed beliefs in the same denomination)

Have you seen fandom shipping wars? This is just the old timey version of that.

 

[alexkowal123]

or make you own church

Nice idea but I wouldn't like to see CK3 levels of customisation

 

[William the Merry]

Nice idea but I wouldn't like to see CK3 levels of customisation

So the pope having no issues with brother sister incest cannibals, whilst all religions play the same?

 

[echet24]

So the pope having no issues with brother sister incest cannibals, whilst all religions play the same?

They are just astray, sir

 

[Avian Overlord]

Protestantism should be divided into Magisterial/Lutheran, Reformed, and Radical IMO. With Radical including Unitarians.

 

[William the Merry]

Protestantism should be divided into Magisterial/Lutheran, Reformed, and Radical IMO. With Radical including Unitarians.

Why call lutheran lutheran but reformed isnt calvinist?

 

[Avian Overlord]

Why call lutheran lutheran but reformed isnt calvinist?

I mean, I'd prefer Magisterial Protestant, but it looks like it's going to be called Lutheran in EU5.

 

[Michael7123]

It would be nice to see a very dynamic Protestant reformation. Given how the start date is 1337 there’s nearly 200 years before the reformation proper kicks off.

There are so many options to choose from!

- Avignon papacy never ends
- Western Schism never starts
- Western Schism never ends
- Hussites crushed
- Church engages in far more robust compromise / incorporation of the Hussites
- St Peter’s Basilica never built
- The specific popes skew less incompetent / corrupt / hypocritical / “less like pope Alexander VI in every way.
- The specific popes skew MORE in the direction of being like Mr Borgia himself in every way.

And this is all scraping the surface, to say nothing of what happens if somehow in game the Papal States just ceases to exist as a tag.

Ideally I’d like the options to range from the Protestant reformation never happening due to sensible reforms being implemented and some of the more maximally dysfunctional events in church history being avoided to something more maximally chaotic than the IRL Protestant reformation.

 

[Cry_Havok]

It would be nice to see a very dynamic Protestant reformation. Given how the start date is 1337 there’s nearly 200 years before the reformation proper kicks off.

There are so many options to choose from!

- Avignon papacy never ends
- Western Schism never starts
- Western Schism never ends
- Hussites crushed
- Church engages in far more robust compromise / incorporation of the Hussites
- St Peter’s Basilica never built
- The specific popes skew less incompetent / corrupt / hypocritical / “less like pope Alexander VI in every way.
- The specific popes skew MORE in the direction of being like Mr Borgia himself in every way.

And this is all scraping the surface, to say nothing of what happens if somehow in game the Papal States just ceases to exist as a tag.

Ideally I’d like the options to range from the Protestant reformation never happening due to sensible reforms being implemented and some of the more maximally dysfunctional events in church history being avoided to something more maximally chaotic than the IRL Protestant reformation.

Add to this the possible failure of the Northern Crusades. If the Baltic and Finnic Pagans push back the Teutons, and the Reconquista fizzles out without reclaiming Iberia, what happens to Christendom?

 

[Miroku20X6]

It would be nice to see a very dynamic Protestant reformation. Given how the start date is 1337 there’s nearly 200 years before the reformation proper kicks off.

There are so many options to choose from!

- Avignon papacy never ends
- Western Schism never starts
- Western Schism never ends
- Hussites crushed
- Church engages in far more robust compromise / incorporation of the Hussites
- St Peter’s Basilica never built
- The specific popes skew less incompetent / corrupt / hypocritical / “less like pope Alexander VI in every way.
- The specific popes skew MORE in the direction of being like Mr Borgia himself in every way.

And this is all scraping the surface, to say nothing of what happens if somehow in game the Papal States just ceases to exist as a tag.

Ideally I’d like the options to range from the Protestant reformation never happening due to sensible reforms being implemented and some of the more maximally dysfunctional events in church history being avoided to something more maximally chaotic than the IRL Protestant reformation.

Some cool ideas there. Avignon Papacy not ending granting France increased influence over the Pope while possibly costing the Pope some decreased legitimacy and possibly decreased relations with other Catholic realms could be interesting.


I think something like western schism only happens 80% of the time or something would be fine. Ultimately I don’t think a “Western Schism never ends” scenario would be plausible, though. The Great Schism separated two spheres of Christendom that were culturally, linguistically, and politically separated already. That’s a separation that can stick. The Western Schism was more like a civil war. It was bound to end at some point. Eventually some side was going to cave; it would only take one side voting the other side’s guy as Pope to end the thing. A permanent western schism would be like saying “wouldn’t it be interesting if the War of the Roses never ended”, which would have been similarly impossible.

The role of Hussites in the lead up to the reformation can indeed be quite interesting. Ultimately the Pope siding with more moderate factions of Hussites and granting them some concessions allowed the movement to end as once the moderates had into agreement with the Pope, it left the hardliners too isolated and few in numbers.

Completely avoiding the reformation should be pretty unlikely, though. Wycliffe really spearheaded the movement that led to Luther, so there was some momentum building up for close to 200 years before this. Some moderation and lack of abuses of the Pope would help, but some of the wanted concessions are not things the Pope can concede, so I think ultimately the separation will always try to take place, repeatedly if continuing to be thwarted. But yeah, Wycliffe and Hus could allow for an earlier English or Bohemian reformation, and even a later German reformation attempt could perhaps be thwarted given a strong and centralized enough HRE, but then perhaps it pops up somewhere else sporadically until successful.

 

[Ottoman Master]

Add to this the possible failure of the Northern Crusades. If the Baltic and Finnic Pagans push back the Teutons, and the Reconquista fizzles out without reclaiming Iberia, what happens to Christendom?

Those things were already done deals by 1337.

 

[Cry_Havok]

Those things were already done deals by 1337.

I was conflating the Northern Crusades with the Christianization of Lithuanian (which is 50 years after game start).
That said Muslims were still in Iberia for more than a century after game start. If Castille fails to push out Andalusia and the Pagans still control Lithuania by say 1500 that would be some real weakness by Catholicism and no doubt cause problems for the Pope.

 

[William the Merry]

I was conflating the Northern Crusades with the Christianization of Lithuanian (which is 50 years after game start).
That said Muslims were still in Iberia for more than a century after game start. If Castille fails to push out Andalusia and the Pagans still control Lithuania by say 1500 that would be some real weakness by Catholicism and no doubt cause problems for the Pope.

Anadaludia has been pushed out, Granada as a tributary is all that remains. Why would pagans ruling in lithuania cause problems for Catholics? Much of Russia was Orthodox not Catholic and yet this caused no issues for the Pope

 

[Cry_Havok]

Anadaludia has been pushed out, Granada as a tributary is all that remains. Why would pagans ruling in lithuania cause problems for Catholics? Much of Russia was Orthodox not Catholic and yet this caused no issues for the Pope

A lot of blood and treasure went into eliminating Paganism in Europe. Failing to stamp it out (and as such the failure of Catholic Holy Orders like the Teutons and the Livonians) would be a big mark against the might and unity of Christianity. Same goes for Grenada, the Catholics are supposed to control Iberia. If they don't, and can't dislodge that last Muslim state (either due to the North Africans supporting Grenada successfully, or the Iberian Christians collapsing to infighting, or other circumstances), then that's a very achievable goal failed. If God wills it, and it doesn't happen, either whoever said God wills it was wrong, or God is not as powerful as you thought.