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A very intresting update on the Middle East! With all sorts of different factions still retaining their power, the region is still a powder keg or to be more precise a secret battleground between the West, New Europe and the Soviets - which should make very intresting covert scenarios!

West and New Europe have largely chosen their local proxies and allies - but Soviet Union is quick to catch up while they recover from WWII.

I like to think that this time the Palestinian could as well be the democratic force in the region, imagine Arafat as a Pro-democratic, pro-US politician! A more richer, freer and highly educated Palestine will surely be a powerfull symbol in the region!

Yep - but with rest of the region under the heel of more or less corrupt and openly pro-US monarchies such powerfull symbols can do both harm and good. Lebanese are not the only ones who allready feel envious to their neighbours and their welfare. But on the other hand Palestine is a living example against the arguments that democracy just won´t work in Arab world.
 
A mod based on this would be wickedly sweet.

Dont stop!

If he uses the Fartherland mod it has some kind of a place to start, so to speak.

Goooooooooooooood idea!!!!
 
Why don´t we just start one?

Now that´s an idea I´ve been pondering for a while. I´ve seen enough of the modding scene to know that in order to succeed it should be something not too ambitious - a new scenario for an existing mod would be quite adequate.

We´d still need a group of people who can actually mod things as well. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, but Fatherland would need some major modding to make it adjust, but ill be willing to help. As long as its for Doomsday of course!

Sorry, Armageddon 1.3 is such a leap forwards from Doomsday and the expansion pack itself is so cheap that I see no reason to use DD anymore.
 
I am curious to see how these events in the Middle East will affect life in the decades to come. Afterall, a lot of drama come from this region of the world - from the Iranian Hostage Crisis to Operation Iraqi Freedom.

For the United States Lebanon had only value as a neutral buffer between Syria and Palestine, and thus the internal political life in the country kept deteriorating - but the memory of Operation Dauntless kept the pro-Syrian groups from trying anything too radical during the first postwar decades.

To me, Lebanon sounds like Serbia leading up to WW1. As we saw in the summer of 1914, sparks from Serbia help ignite the Great War. Is that a good comparision?
 
I suppose one of the advantages morally speaking of having the Abwehr roaming around is that the USA & co. can't just settle for anti-communist strongmen to retain influence in the Mid. East. The chances of them 'turning' pro-Nazi will be just as fixed in CIA minds as they were whenever a democracy turned left in OTL. For instance they may very well back Mohammed Shah in Iran still but they'll probably want to see a move towards democracy to ensure stable, liberal-ish con. mon.

As such things like Iranian Hostage Crisis or the Invasion of Iraq won't be nessecary simply because the USA will be far more cautious when it comes to picking friends. Naturally that doesn't stop the generic anti-communist strongmen from going Nazi though ;)
 
I am curious to see how these events in the Middle East will affect life in the decades to come. Afterall, a lot of drama come from this region of the world - from the Iranian Hostage Crisis to Operation Iraqi Freedom.

To me, Lebanon sounds like Serbia leading up to WW1. As we saw in the summer of 1914, sparks from Serbia help ignite the Great War. Is that a good comparision?

Well, not quite. The shifting Lebanese demographics and the legacy of the Middle-Eastern War will surely cause a lot of local trouble. But Lebanon has no oil, and thus it is strategically relatively unimportant in the current situation, valued mostly as a neutral buffer between Palestine and Syria. The more cautious German foreign policy in Middle-East will also ensure that a new openly supported coup in Lebanon is highly unlikely due the risks and the vicinity of US bases in northern Palestine.

But yeah, even without the Palestinian question Middle-East won´t be nice and quiet during the upcoming decades.

I suppose one of the advantages morally speaking of having the Abwehr roaming around is that the USA & co. can't just settle for anti-communist strongmen to retain influence in the Mid. East. The chances of them 'turning' pro-Nazi will be just as fixed in CIA minds as they were whenever a democracy turned left in OTL. For instance they may very well back Mohammed Shah in Iran still but they'll probably want to see a move towards democracy to ensure stable, liberal-ish con. mon.

As such things like Iranian Hostage Crisis or the Invasion of Iraq won't be nessecary simply because the USA will be far more cautious when it comes to picking friends. Naturally that doesn't stop the generic anti-communist strongmen from going Nazi though ;)

Accurate observations. Middle-East is also interesting because instead of simply picking their side in the struggle between the three rivalling ideologies, the locals are actively trying to find alternative political choises that would offer them more than their current status as mere pawns in the geopolitical game between the US, Reich and USSR. In the case of Turkey a solution is seemingly found from neutrality, but what about the rest of the region, especially Egypt?
 
Hmm... that is true, and with Baathism/Arab National-Socialism both compromised ideologically by the war and clearly linked to Germany their options are lessoned. Although from the sound of it, there's still quite a few diehard ex-SS roaming around isn't there?

I have a feeling the Monarchies regardless of intent will be seen as decadent and pro-Western.

Turkey's neutrality is a diserable option paritcularly if coupled with secular (kinda)democracy, however Turkey has the advantage in that respect of being a large mountainous country with no oil and its prime geopolitical hotspot - the Bosphorus Straits - has faded from importance. After WWII and the conquest of Russia, no-one has any need to bloody itself to control the Turks.

Oil rich, flat nations around the Persian Gulf however will have a problem.

This leaves Islamism as the dark horse candidate for "Saviour of the Arab World". :eek:
 
Accurate observations. Middle-East is also interesting because instead of simply picking their side in the struggle between the three rivalling ideologies, the locals are actively trying to find alternative political choises that would offer them more than their current status as mere pawns in the geopolitical game between the US, Reich and USSR. In the case of Turkey a solution is seemingly found from neutrality, but what about the rest of the region, especially Egypt?

Is there a non-aligned movement?
 
I suppose one of the advantages morally speaking of having the Abwehr roaming around is that the USA & co. can't just settle for anti-communist strongmen to retain influence in the Mid. East. The chances of them 'turning' pro-Nazi will be just as fixed in CIA minds as they were whenever a democracy turned left in OTL. For instance they may very well back Mohammed Shah in Iran still but they'll probably want to see a move towards democracy to ensure stable, liberal-ish con. mon.

As such things like Iranian Hostage Crisis or the Invasion of Iraq won't be nessecary simply because the USA will be far more cautious when it comes to picking friends. Naturally that doesn't stop the generic anti-communist strongmen from going Nazi though ;)

I don't know. Forcing democratization on a people is three steps too sophisticated for 1950's western democracies. How many times did the US in its interventions in central america actually impose successful democracies, and how many times did they just overthrow the government, install some loyal stooges in their stead and left? I think the latter one was more common. And it would be the pattern adopted by 1950s western democracies under this setting too, if you apply realistic expectations.

This is not the idealistic world of Kennedy and Johnson and the Berlin wall. Great society and democracy/freedom throughout the world and so on. This is just us vs. them. In the early 1950s (real history) the social reform thing wasn't even half way through within the USA itself, British people were still thinking of Arabs as colonial populations best ruled by divide & conquer, and the French were fighting a war because they couldn't bring themselves to make Algerian muslims citizens even if the Algerians were willing to learn French, sing the Marseillaise and die happily in France's wars. (That's more than is asked from Algerian immigrants even today.) How pray tell would Americans and British politicians go about spreading democracy in the Muslim world of all places?

They're just going to arm the guys who will keep selling them oil, and prop up the monarchies. Just my 2 cents :p
 
I don't know. Forcing democratization on a people is three steps too sophisticated for 1950's western democracies. How many times did the US in its interventions in central america actually impose successful democracies, and how many times did they just overthrow the government, install some loyal stooges in their stead and left? I think the latter one was more common. And it would be the pattern adopted by 1950s western democracies under this setting too, if you apply realistic expectations.

This is not the idealistic world of Kennedy and Johnson and the Berlin wall. Great society and democracy/freedom throughout the world and so on. This is just us vs. them. In the early 1950s (real history) the social reform thing wasn't even half way through within the USA itself, British people were still thinking of Arabs as colonial populations best ruled by divide & conquer, and the French were fighting a war because they couldn't bring themselves to make Algerian muslims citizens even if the Algerians were willing to learn French, sing the Marseillaise and die happily in France's wars. (That's more than is asked from Algerian immigrants even today.) How pray tell would Americans and British politicians go about spreading democracy in the Muslim world of all places?

They're just going to arm the guys who will keep selling them oil, and prop up the monarchies. Just my 2 cents :p

Oh no, you misunderstand me. I think the US will be more weary of strongmen in TTL because of militarist/fascist tendencies that could see them slide towards Germany. I get what you mean but the CIA wont be too confidant about propping up regimes that bare an uncanny resemblance to Berlin, particularly if the Germans have strong influence in the region. In OTL, the more right-wing the better really, it meant they were that more 'safe' at least in their eyes. Here though...

Let's just say America and the Allies might suffer a few "Saddam" style turn arounds a lot earlier if they take the conventional route. It all depends on how much ideology and realpolitik mingles in the M.East in TTL, and who holds dominance in the region. The US certainly has the upperhand but that only makes them "Imperialist Pig-Dog" no. 1 in the eyes of Arab nationalists.

Say your the dictator of a Mid East country with strong ties to the USA. Your facing protests in the street etc. based on Arab nationalism calling for an end to American domination. Would you stick to your guns or contact Berlin and set up a weapons-for-oil programme?
 
Hmm... that is true, and with Baathism/Arab National-Socialism both compromised ideologically by the war and clearly linked to Germany their options are lessoned. Although from the sound of it, there's still quite a few diehard ex-SS roaming around isn't there?

The former NCOs in this group come mostly from Balkans and Caucasus. Many re-enlisted solely because they felt persecuted in their postwar civilian life - after all, they had fought for a power that had promised to grand independence and better treatment for local Muslim populations and then broke these promises (with the sole exception of Albania).

The veterans who were recruited from the Middle-East were lured in by the Baathist propaganda apparatus that sought to portray the conflict as a justified religious war of defense against the Western imperialists and their Zionist masters. The outcome of Istanbul Conference has left them equally bitter, as they have realized that the Reich merely used their religious zeal to promote it´s own agenda.

Think them as a mixture of those few OTL post-WWII SS-veterans who enlisted to Foreign Legion or moved to Africa to work as mercenaries and local mujahideen, unified by their religion and feeling of being used and betrayed.

I have a feeling the Monarchies regardless of intent will be seen as decadent and pro-Western.

I see little reason why things would go unlike in OTL in this regard.

Turkey's neutrality is a desirable option particularly if coupled with secular (kinda)democracy, however Turkey has the advantage in that respect of being a large mountainous country with no oil and its prime geopolitical hotspot - the Bosphorus Straits - has faded from importance. After WWII and the conquest of Russia, no-one has any need to bloody itself to control the Turks.

Oil rich, flat nations around the Persian Gulf however will have a problem.

The Anatolian Peninsula still retains much of it´s former geopolitical importance. But you are right, the tripolar Cold War ensures that Turkish leadership can play the opposing forces against one another and thus retain it´s own independence.

And for the Saudis and smaller states in the Gulf the increased Western activity and control changes very little - British imperial control is still daily reality for much of southern Arabian Peninsula and Gulf area, and granting them even formal independence is rather slow process.

This leaves Islamism as the dark horse candidate for "Saviour of the Arab World". :eek:

If all the superpowers and their ideologies are merely turning fellow Muslims against one another, why not seek alternatives from elsewhere?

Is there a non-aligned movement?

At least the current leadership of Egypt would certainly like to think so. But globally the different role the United Nations has when compared to OTL will have serious impact when it´s combined to the needs of United States export markets - the loss of trade with Europe has to be replaced somehow, and countries like Indonesia and India have thus some interesting new options.

I don't know. Forcing democratization on a people is three steps too sophisticated for 1950's western democracies.

Personally I think it is three steps too sophisticated for Western democracies even today.

How many times did the US in its interventions in central america actually impose successful democracies, and how many times did they just overthrow the government, install some loyal stooges in their stead and left? I think the latter one was more common. And it would be the pattern adopted by 1950s western democracies under this setting too, if you apply realistic expectations.

So far it has also been just like that. Palestine is a UN projectorate, the rest of the Arab-populated Middle-East under Western sphere of influence still has either Hashemite and Saudi monarchs or direct British colonial administration ruling the locals.

This is not the idealistic world of Kennedy and Johnson and the Berlin wall. Great society and democracy/freedom throughout the world and so on. This is just us vs. them.

But wouldn´t the confrontation with the realities of a New Order in Europe simply force Western democracies to offer serious alternatives to the authoritarian monster created by Berlin? The way democracy failed in post-Versailles Europe is clearly remembered both inside and outside the continent, and it will have impact on postwar thinking. If you want to read one book about the subject I recommed Mark Mazower and his Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century.

In the early 1950s (real history) the social reform thing wasn't even half way through within the USA itself, British people were still thinking of Arabs as colonial populations best ruled by divide & conquer, and the French were fighting a war because they couldn't bring themselves to make Algerian muslims citizens even if the Algerians were willing to learn French, sing the Marseillaise and die happily in France's wars. (That's more than is asked from Algerian immigrants even today.) How pray tell would Americans and British politicians go about spreading democracy in the Muslim world of all places?

Well, granting Palestinian Arabs the right to vote for their representatives in local-level Provisional Councils is one thing, and rather different from the anacronistic notion of "spreading democracy", especially because we are still talking about the world of 1950´s as you correctly pointed out. It is also quite true that Algeria and the rest of the Free-French controlled colonies will witness some dramatic changes.

Oh no, you misunderstand me. I think the US will be more weary of strongmen in TTL because of militarist/fascist tendencies that could see them slide towards Germany. I get what you mean but the CIA wont be too confidant about propping up regimes that bare an uncanny resemblance to Berlin, particularly if the Germans have strong influence in the region. In OTL, the more right-wing the better really, it meant they were that more 'safe' at least in their eyes. Here though...

This is true to a certain extent - but then again authoritarian right-wing government and outright fascist dictatorship are two different things - and not all fascists are willing to align themselves with Berlin. Not that US public would be as indifferent towards possible alliances with fascist regimes as in OTL in any case.

Let's just say America and the Allies might suffer a few "Saddam" style turn arounds a lot earlier if they take the conventional route. It all depends on how much ideology and realpolitik mingles in the M.East in TTL, and who holds dominance in the region. The US certainly has the upperhand but that only makes them "Imperialist Pig-Dog" no. 1 in the eyes of Arab nationalists.

Say your the dictator of a Mid East country with strong ties to the USA. Your facing protests in the street etc. based on Arab nationalism calling for an end to American domination. Would you stick to your guns or contact Berlin and set up a weapons-for-oil programme?

Does one really have the German card to play after the outcome of the Middle-Eastern War? Berlin will be much more cautious in it´s near future foreign policy, and it would be really bold move from a local strongman to try this approach - The West interfered last time, so why not now? Especially since all METO member states have governments that are more or less afraid of their own people and thus eager to subdue all signs of rebellion in their neighbouring countries in order to prevent them from spreading.

They're just going to arm the guys who will keep selling them oil, and prop up the monarchies. Just my 2 cents :p
And to arm them primarily against their own people as long as the real foreign military threat in the region remains as low as it´s currently is.
 
Oh no, you misunderstand me. I think the US will be more weary of strongmen in TTL because of militarist/fascist tendencies that could see them slide towards Germany. I get what you mean but the CIA wont be too confidant about propping up regimes that bare an uncanny resemblance to Berlin, particularly if the Germans have strong influence in the region. In OTL, the more right-wing the better really, it meant they were that more 'safe' at least in their eyes. Here though...

Let's just say America and the Allies might suffer a few "Saddam" style turn arounds a lot earlier if they take the conventional route. It all depends on how much ideology and realpolitik mingles in the M.East in TTL, and who holds dominance in the region. The US certainly has the upperhand but that only makes them "Imperialist Pig-Dog" no. 1 in the eyes of Arab nationalists.

Say your the dictator of a Mid East country with strong ties to the USA. Your facing protests in the street etc. based on Arab nationalism calling for an end to American domination. Would you stick to your guns or contact Berlin and set up a weapons-for-oil programme?

I wasn't disputing your notion that the US would be, shall we say, hestitant to support openly fascistoid dictatorships like Franco in OTL or the caudillos of the 1940s (Vargas in Brazil / Perón in Argentina) where you had military juntas claiming to save people from the commies and a president-for-life in a generalissimo's uniform. Or the Baathists who also endorsed fascist symbols and attire. However that is just appearances, the only thing the caudillo would need to do is take off his generalissimo uniform and don a business suit, then appoint some civilians as figureheads to his cabinet and make nice with the business community and he is back on the good list of the USA.

So what I am saying (and what was my main point in the previous point) is that the foreign policy of the US is not going to be any different from OTL, except that the dictators have to wear ties, tone down the jingoist rhethorics and make nice with big business. They can still be brutal strongmen at home and as repressive as they want, they can pursue religious and ethnic minorities as much as they want... What the US want is a reliable partner who does not look like he is going to betray the US at first chance, and who opens his markets for US products. Most of the people the US propped up throughout the cold war actually did fall in this category... Diem, Pinochet, the Shah of Persia, the Sauds.

I read your post as saying that the new trilateral world would force the US to pick its friends more carefully, and that the foreign policy of the US (or the UK) would somehow have to be more "moral" because the Abwehr would already court the more morally repellant regimes of the world. My point is that this would not necessarily be true, since the need for friends of the US is far greater in this world than in ours, and that the morality of a foreign government does not depend on his "fascistoid" appearance. There's nothing that says that an "immoral regime" (i.e. repressing the people, persecuting minorities, torturing dissidents, selling out the nation's resources for personal or ideological reasons) would automatically look towards Berlin rather than Washington or Moscow. A morally acceptable government would probably prefer the US over Moscow or Berlin, but the reverse does not have to hold true - an "immoral regime" would still consider whom to befriend on the basis of who promises the most gain.