The Democratic BAR: Your vote counts

[unmerged(29041)]

[size=+1]1588 Report (December)[/size]

Economy
Stability +3
Stability cost = ?D/level (estimated around 2000)
Treasury = 1304D
Inflation 3.3%

Number of provinces:
1419     6
1443    11
1468    13
1493    20
1518    25
1543    26
1568    29
1583    35
1588    35

Yearly income from provinces:
           Tax       Prod     Manp
1419      29.86      23.48     6.2
1443      80.78      55.47    12.0
1468     111.33      90.87    17.0
1493     180.55     175.82    27.5
1518     199.73     206.22    34.5
1543     223.00     249.01    42.5
1568     238.69     343.06    45.8
1583     286.57     415.90    47.8
1588     305.74     402.08    50.8

Monthly income:
           Tax     Prod     Trade    Gold    Total   mil. maint. (50%)
1419       9.3      2.0       5.9     0.0     17.2       -1.7
1443      17.7      4.6       7.9     0.0     30.3       -3.4
1468      22.8     11.8       4.4     0.0     39.1       -4.1
1493      33.7     16.7      16.0     0.0     66.9       -5.7
1518      38.7     21.1      17.9     0.0     79.2       -8.2
1543      48.4     23.8      24.3     0.0     96.5       -7.6
1568      57.5     29.9      35.9     0.0    123.4      -12.0 
1583      68.1     32.2      54.6     4.3    159.2      -11.8
1588      84.7     42.2      63.7     4.3    194.8      -10.2
Current minting income: 28.3 ducats/month

74 merchants in CoTs (+6). 6.8 merchants/year
4.4 settlers/year
Trade efficiency is 76% (first nation). Production efficiency is 60% (first nation)
Trade agreements: Portugal

National
Monarch Pasquale Cicogna
Administrative Good (7)
Diplomacy very poor (3)
Military Average (5)

Domestic policies:
Year            1419 1503 1553 58 63 68 73 78 83 88
Aristocracy        4    3    4  -  5  4  -  -  -  5
Centralization     3    8    9  -  - 10  9  8  -  -
Innovative         4    5    -  -  -  -  -  -  4  -
Mercantilism       5    8    7  8  -  -  -  -  -  -
Offensive          2    4    3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -
Land               2    1    0  1  -  -  -  -  -  -
Quality            6    8    7  -  -  8  9  -  -  -
Serfdom            4    1    0  1  -  -  -  -  -  -

Technology + % of next level (estimated date, current investment)
Land 16 + 52% (1594, 20%) [No bonus]
Naval 13 + 77% (1592, 10%) [Bonus = 2D]
Trade 7 + 8% (1735, 0%) [No bonus]
Infrastructure 5 + 98% (1589, 45%) [No bonus]
Minting 25% (due to war)

Manufactories:
Refinery in Crete (finished in 1456)
Refinery in Morea (finished in 1478)
Refinery in Napoli (finished in 1495)

Provinces of wrong religion: Orthodox (Kaffa) Muslim (Alexandria, Cataract, Nile, Delta, Egypt).

Military

Leaders:
Land leader General G. Savorgnano (3, 2, 3, 1)
Naval leader Admiral Querini (2, 3, 4)

Army 41k infantry, 43k cavalry, 107 artillery
maintenance cost at 50% is 7.3 D/month
Army support limit = 123 000 (25,000 from trade)
Cost of army units:
Infantry 16D
Cavalry 28D
Artillery 24D

Navy 18 warships, 104 galleys, 22 transports
maintenance cost at 50% 2.9 D/month
Navy support limit = 252
Cost of naval units:
warships 45D
Galleys 9D
Transports 13D

Manpower pool = 61 (30,000/year)

International

1) Standing
Allies: Spain & Savoy
Bad Boy 26.5/41 very bad reputation
Permanent CB: Genoa, Burgundy, Pomerania, Ottoman Empire
Temporary CB:

Countries with permanent CB on Venice:
Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Papal States, Spain, Savoy, Bulgaria, Crimea, Austria

Dark Green represents countries with > +150 relationship to us. Light Green represents countries with +75 to +150 relationship to us. White countries have -75 to +75 relationship to us. Bright red countries have between -75 and -150 relationship to us, and dark red countries have < -150 relationship to us.

2) Neighbours and near-neighbours by areas (allies). Underlined countries have land/strait border to Venice:

Italy:
Papal States
Venice (Spain RM MA, Savoy RM MA )
Genoa
North:
Switzerland
Danubian:
Austria MA (Bavaria, Cleves, Dauphine)
Hungary
Balkan/Carpatian/Asia minor:
Bulgaria
Bosnia RM
Transylvania
Wallachia
Poland (Brandenburg, the Knights, French Catholics, Ireland and Nubia)
OE RM
Mediterranean:
Tunisia
Tlemcen
Marocco (Songhai, Timbuktu)
Black sea:
Crimea
Uzbek (Afghanistan, Lan Na)
Kara Koyunlu (Oman, The Hedjaz)
Africa:
Yemen
India:
Vijayanagar (Rajputana)
Mysore
Other:
France (Burgundy)
Huguenots (Scotland, England)
Portugal
Netherlands

3) Vassalages:
Papal States and Bulgaria are vassals of Venice
France is a vassal of Burgundy
Genoa and Portugal are vassals of Spain
Bavaria is a vassal of Austria
Brandenburg, Courland and Crimea are vassals of Poland

4) Changes in our area:
Burgundy surrendered Artois, Luxembourg & Köln to Netherlands
Auvergne defected from Savoy to Huguenots

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Senators, the time has come to decide about the fate of our defeated enemy. Sultan Murad III escaped from the siege of Bursa, and has taken refuge in the mountains of Taurus. Probably Murad is regretting having killed his former Grand Vizier Mehmet Sokolli and started this unfortunate war. I believe he misses his Seraglio, and will be willing to make a compromise. So let us decide what we will be requesting from him. His coffers are right now empty, but if we wait a few days, he might have 25 ducats that we can share with Savoy and Spain.

[size=+1]Election 62. Peace negotiation with the Ottoman Empire[/size]

This is a list with our conquests and their value at the peace table for the Ottomans (the value indicated here is double of what is displayed on-screen, as they are all cores for them). This value is also an indication of how rich is the province.

Request        value   other info.
Smyrna          48%    Greek sunni
Syria           32%
Lebanon         24%
Aleppo          24%
Kurdistan       24%
Trabzon         20%    Greek orthodox
Judea           20%
Samaria         16%
Serbia          16%
Sochi           16%
Sivas           16%
Rumelia         16%
Dobrudja        12%
Bujak           12%
Nuyssaybin      12%
Jordan          12%
Sinai            8%
Quattara         8%

Vassalization   70%
Military access 20%

State what should be our demands to Murad in exchange for peace, but taking in consideration:
-The total value of your proposal must not exceed 99%. Values up to 88% are guaranteed.
-Indicate your choices in order of preference. Write your priorities first.
-Indicate if a province requested is to be kept by us or to be released as a vassal. If I am correct, possible vassals are:

• Serbia (Serbia, orthodox)
• Judea (Kingdom of Jerusalem, catholic, arabic) [will have cores on Aleppo, Syria, Lebanon, Samaria & Jordan]

-If a vassal is requested, indicate if we want him in our alliance

You can request any combination up to a maximun of 99% or less. An example could be:

Election 62
-Trabzon and Smyrna to be kept [68%]
-Judea to be released as vassal KoJ and allied [20%]
[Total 88%]

[size=+1]Election 63. 1589-1599 International Situation[/size]

If you favor war, mark your target as enemy (we have CB against Genoa, Pomerania, Burgundy and OE) and indicate in 5 that you want war. You are welcome to indicate other conditions that you might deem important.

This election is to orient the work of our diplomats and advance our goals. State as many countries as you want that we should befriend or attack according to the following categories.

1. Dear Friends. Countries that we should try to ally (or keep in the alliance), marry and get military access with. Look in the report for CBs and current relationships.

2. Friends. Countries that we want to keep good relationships and marry, but we don't want in our alliance.

3. Adversaries. Countries that we would like to hit if the conditions are right, but are not currently direct targets. Military access is not out of the question since we don't plan to DoW them but could find at war with them.

4. Enemies. Countries that we should get at war with, if the conditions are right. This should include countries that are not strictely enemies, but that we could take a province or vassalize to pursue long term goals.

5. Warmonger clause. Enter (War) if you believe we should declare war under the right circumstances in this period to advance our goals. Enter (Peace) if you believe we should remain at peace during this period, unless attacked. Voting War does not mean we will go to war, it means we will not let a good oportunity of declaring war to a ripe target escape. Such opportunity may not present itself.

Special issue:
6. Vassalization of Austria. In case of a new war against Austria. Do you support her force-vassalization?

Remember that this is an important election, since events are possible that could grant us a CB depending on our choice, or a temporary CB could come along and your choices will let me know what the senate wants. As a general rule I will not DoW without a CB, and I will not DoW countries outside 3) or 4) even if CB, and I will not DoW if 5) Peace. As always, special circumstancies will be brought to the senate for discussion.

 

[Svantevid]

Matteo Vendramin​

Doge and senators, here are the votes and wisdom of the house of Vendramin:

Election 62

Smyrna 48% keep
Serbia 16% vassalize
Rumelia, Sochi 2 x 16% keep

Total 96%

Smyrna, for its riches and greek culture; Serbia, to free another european nation from the ottoman rule; Rumelia, the last ottoman port in Europe; Sochi, to expand our lands in the N of Black sea.

 

[unmerged(34884)]

Roberto Contarini​

Doge and senators, here are the votes of the family of Contarini concerning the negotiations with the Ottoman Empire.

Smyrna, is an important province with a rich culture, also closely connected to Greece and our empire. Serbia, can finally be freed from the rule of the Ottomans and included in our Alliance. Rumelia, the last ottoman port in Europe. Sinai, allows us to expand our African colony.

Election 62

Smyrna 48% Keep
Serbia 16% Vassalize and Ally
Rumelia 16% keep
Sinai 8% keep

Total 88%

 

[Norrefeldt]

Aureo Barbarigo​

Smyrna and Trabzon are both rich and Greek. Actually the last Greeks under Ottoman rule. That means they will yield excellent taxes, and are easy to convert. We could then either free Serbia or Jerusalem from the infidel, and I think both are good options. Serbia is much more likely to break free without our help since they are isolated, so I prefer Judea. Hopefully we can have them expand in a future war with the Ottomans, and start converting the Arabs. I do think we should stay away from very poor provinces, since they will slow down tech and raise stability costs, without any real gain.

Election 62.
Smyrna 48%
Trabzon 20%
Judea 20% (release and ally)

Total 88%

 

[ProfCC]

Senator Barbarigo, I thank you for your kind words. I know we can't take it all and vassalizing the infidel would be unwise. It is too bad that other people groups could not be freed to their own nation. I hear your words about Trabazon, but that area seems so far away, isolated and potentially opens up issues of war fronts with other Persian nations that would then be challenging to deal with. Of course, my ancestors said the same thing about Kerch and as of yet, such as not been true. So perhaps I would be wrong here as well.

I think my final vote, though, will be related mostly to my desire to eliminate the OE from Europe. Doge, thank you for the information related to Sinai; that helps my choices.

[ooc--Fodoron, Norrefeldt or others--I do have a question before I vote. If we took the other cores of Kingdom of Judea, wouldn't they all release as the vassal. When I did this in the Balkans and went to release Hungary, they had 3 provinces. This impacts how we vote in that, should we desire to really hurt the OE, would could take 2-3 provinces WITH Judea in order to have an ally of some size, rather than a mere 1 province country. I know its weird (to me) how the game does this as some times an obvious province seems NOT connected. Anyway, I want to withhold my vote for a bit till I hear back from someone on this. I want to release the Kingdom of Judea but I'd at least want to have it as a 2 province nation in order to help it survive. Please let me know]

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Only Judea can be released as KoJ. If we take any of her cores we will have to keep them and she will have a permanent CB on us.

But a one province KoJ should not be a problem as long as we want to be friendly with them we can help them survive from the OE and even expand.

One thing that should be taken into consideration is that if we release a vassal, it better be a long term friend, as she will have as good a trade technology as we do, and will be the most efficient country in the world in knocking down our merchants. If we are going to lose money (merchants or a -1% trade efficiency for a TA), it better be to a friend.

Also, election 63 will also be needing your votes. It is a very important election. In the previous one, the choice to befriend Savoy, saved our ass during the war against Austria.

 

[SnapperAEG]

OOC:

I definitely think we should create the KoJ. Very cool to bring back crusader state

One problem, will they be Sunni? I guess they start as Catholic, but Judea is Sunni. Will they convert to Sunni or will they convert the province?

I'd hate to go through the trouble of creating them only to lose the vassal.

AG

 

[unmerged(29041)]

No, they cannot convert to a different group religion. Only to Protestant, Reformed or CRC, but they will not change to Protestant, etc... because they have no protestant provinces. If they have enough money they will try to convert Judea to Catholicism with a good efficiency since they are also of arabic culture. They could also receive a conversion event that would turn Judea into Catholic.

 

[SnapperAEG]

No, they cannot convert to a different group religion. Only to Protestant, Reformed or CRC, but they will not change to Protestant, etc... because they have no protestant provinces. If they have enough money they will try to convert Judea to Catholicism with a good efficiency since they are also of arabic culture. They could also receive a conversion event that would turn Judea into Catholic.

Great. I guess we could send them some gifts too.

I'll post my votes soon.

 

[Hastu Neon]

Election 62
Smyrna 48% Keep
Trabzon 20% Keep
Serbia, Sochi or Judea to be released as vassal (should Sochi be releasable into Georgia?)
[I]In general, I wouldn't like to see too many 1-prov vassals easy targets for OE.
Just few, those that can be protected by our alliance[/I]

Election 63
1. Spain, Savoy, Papal States
2. Bulgaria, Bosnia, Transylvania, Wallachia
3. Genoa
4. Austria, OE
5. Peace

Austria: force-vassalise (with great pleasure)

 

[SnapperAEG]

Dear Senators,

I read with pleasure of our exploits in the recent war. I am glad my son, Arturo Gandolfi II was able to play some small role. As my age is advancing, and my health detiorating, he will represent my family in the Senate from now onward. Long live the Republic!

My final votes,

Election 62
- Smyrna, keep, convert
- Trabizon, keep, convert
- Judea, release as KoJ, and ally

Election 63
Dear Friends: Spain, Savoy, KoJ
Friends: Bosnia, Bulgaria, Papal States, Knights, Wallachia, Transylvania
Adversaries: Austria, Hungary, Genoa
Enemies: Portugal (colonial), Netherlands (colonial), Ottomans
Peace
Austria: Force Vassalize

Ernesto II Gandolfi

 

[unmerged(42935)]

Another question to the KoJ: if we take core provinces of the KoJ, but don't garrision them and wait for the rebellions to come, would these provinces defect to OE or KoJ (both have cores)?

 

[ProfCC]

My dearest Doge and friends, allow myself to bring sad news along with my family's vote. My dear father, Meryoni, has passed on. These last few weeks have taken their toll. When the Ottomans declared war, it was but a few weeks shy of his 75th birthday. Of course, as you know, he stayed diligently at the task of our family empire and in the Senate. He rejoiced to know that we had emerged victorious in this latest round of conflict, but his aged heart simply could not continue. He expired two days ago, expressing deep frustration about the choices in front of the Senate.

I am his second son, Brynano. As you know, my eldest brother Carlo II died in childhood. Perhaps it is the knowledge that my father named his eldest son after my great-great-great-grandfather Carlo Cornaro who first sat in this Senate in 1419 that drove me to read my own family's history.

Long did my ancestor rail against the evils of the Ottomans. His son Eduardo likewise urged the Senate to remove this threat to our Empire. Even as late as the latter decades of the 1400s, Eduardo demanded the Senate lead the Republic to take this land. Little did I know this for my father rarely spoke of war and my grandfather Loganni hated the concept of war (he loved riding horses instead).

Now I stand here at something of a crossroads for the Cornaro family. I have watched my father debate and wrestle with the choices ahead of us. He did support war (a war that cost our family, especially in Cyprus--a province I would proudly remind the Senate only now belongs to our glorious Republic because of the sacrifices and effort of the Corner family!), but only against his better choices. He wanted the Republic to grow with trade.

Now in my first vote I find myself confronted with the same evil as my ancestors. Is it not possible that Carlo was indeed right almost 2 centuries ago? We must finish this issue now! Would that I could, I would take every province away from them and let the consequences be damned. I realize our reputation would suffer; would that really be worse economically for us than these repeated wars? Sigh--I understand we cannot take these lands, so we must strike for freedom for others. Serbia must be freed, though I will agree with the wisdom of Senator Barbarigo that they should be able to break free themselves. We must set up again the Vaunted Kingdom of Jerusalem and bring them into our alliance. Rumelia must be captured; long ago did my ancestors lead a victorious Venetian war in that area only to see the Senate willingly give that land up (the diary of my ancestor is filled with tears as he recounted the 100s of people who attempted to swim to our galleys as our army left rather than be returned to the slavery and control of the infidel). We must do these things and more if possible my Doge.

Election 62
1. Symrna 48
2. Judea 20(release as KoJ; keep in alliance)
3. Rumelia 16
4. GRRR--I want Serbia but that makes 100 I think. I just don't see the Trabizon thing. OK--Dobrudja--12
That makes 96; ah they'll probably reject over and over though won't they. Maybe if we wait, they'll offer us 10 provinces including Symrna, Judea and Serbia. Take em all I say, take them all!!!!

Election 63
1.Spain, Savoy, KoJ, Bosnia
2. Bulgaria, Papal States, Russia, Netherlands, Transylvania, Wallachia, Knights
3. Austria, Genoa, OE, Poland
4. none
Peace
Special--Austria--Force-Vasselize!!

[ooc--all these many posts later, I still never think I understand this vote well. Fodoron, I'm saying peace, so shouldn't I then have no one in #4 since that is the countries to war with? It just seems that #4 is saying "Doge--go to war with this country as soon as possible." Yes/no? Sorry to still be confused at points. HAHA--great fun. Awesome to see you again Hastu!]

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Another question to the KoJ: if we take core provinces of the KoJ, but don't garrision them and wait for the rebellions to come, would these provinces defect to OE or KoJ (both have cores)?

Senator Pesaro,

I ignore the answer to your difficult question. Although I don't see why they could not defect to the KoJ, my feeling is that they would probably go to the OE unless there was no land border to it.

 

[Svantevid]

Matteo Vendramin​

Doge and senators, here are the votes and wisdom of the house of Vendramin:

Elaction 63
1. Spain, Bosnia, Savoy, Papal States, Ethiopia
2. Bulgaria, Austria, Hungary, Transylvania, Wallachia
3. Genoa, OE
4. Indian states, Portugal
5. Peace
6. Vassalize

The senate should soon consider the feasibility of vassalising and then annexing Savoy by diplomatic means, and re-creating vassals out of its provinces, excepting those with italian culture.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

[ooc--all these many posts later, I still never think I understand this vote well. Fodoron, I'm saying peace, so shouldn't I then have no one in #4 since that is the countries to war with? It just seems that #4 is saying "Doge--go to war with this country as soon as possible." Yes/no? Sorry to still be confused at points. HAHA--great fun. Awesome to see you again Hastu!]

The subtleties of diplomacy are very confusing to a Doge like Pasquale Cicogna, severely handicapped in that aspect. Not the best time to try to convince the Savoyards of our Republican advantages.

The diference between choosing our enemies and voting war, comes from the many decisions that come to your Doge. I will put an example. We can have Genoa as an enemy and yet vote for peace, but if by chance we find ourselves at war with Genoa (if we are in opposite alliances when somebody DoWs someone), the fact that they are our enemies, will make the Signoria pursue a very agressive course of action against them during that war, while if they were our friends, we would try not to harm them unless necessary, and would not try to gain anything from them. Knowing our enemies is important, even if we desire peace.

Perhaps a refinement can be introduced in the next election by which #5 will require to introduce the country/(ies) that the senator aproves to declare war in the next period. So we don't see ourselves at war against a country that only a minority of the senate supports. In general it is very difficult for democracies to declare a war, if it has to be aproved by the Parliament beforehand, but so far we have been doing fine.

 

[ProfCC]

The subtleties of diplomacy are very confusing to a Doge like Pasquale Cicogna, severely handicapped in that aspect. Not the best time to try to convince the Savoyards of our Republican advantages.

The diference between choosing our enemies and voting war, comes from the many decisions that come to your Doge. I will put an example. We can have Genoa as an enemy and yet vote for peace, but if by chance we find ourselves at war with Genoa (if we are in opposite alliances when somebody DoWs someone), the fact that they are our enemies, will make the Signoria pursue a very agressive course of action against them during that war, while if they were our friends, we would try not to harm them unless necessary, and would not try to gain anything from them. Knowing our enemies is important, even if we desire peace.

Perhaps a refinement can be introduced in the next election by which #5 will require to introduce the country/(ies) that the senator aproves to declare war in the next period. So we don't see ourselves at war against a country that only a minority of the senate supports. In general it is very difficult for democracies to declare a war, if it has to be aproved by the Parliament beforehand, but so far we have been doing fine.

Well that certainly helps clear things up for me. If I don't want any enemies at all (even if I personaly hate nation X), then I'd leave that spot blank. If I want us to be ready to deal with nation X if it comes up, though, I'd put them in that spot. We still won't necessarily go to war with nation X if they are on the enemies list, but if it comes up, you'll go hard against them. And I see better then how the war/peace vote works in.

Yes, I would also agree that you could add a #5 spot for a Senator to list a specific country to go to war with. Of course, at the same time, when the moment has come up, you've just saved the game and called for a vote (at least that is how it seems to me).

Keep up the good work my friend and let's roll on with the show! Everyone's voted, right? Let's take more Ottoman land. YAY! LOL

 

[unmerged(34884)]

LOL doubt it will work. Peace would be nice for a change if the world will let us

 

[seboden]

A messenger arrives:
Please wait noble senators, don't close the vote yet, i have a letter from Colonel Fabio Trevisan, who is currently with our army in Asia Minor, please read it first.

Noble Senators, Honourable Doge,
me and my family haven't been in the Serenissima for a long time, since our business interests now lie in India where I was also responsible for the protection of our colony in Kerala. In fact the last of the Trevisan family to vote in the senate was my grandfather Manolo. But now after our glorious victory over the infidels in which I pride myself to have taken a small part in - under the superb command of our Capitano Generale, I have decided to move back to Venice and so here is my vote on the peace conditions with the Ottomans and our international relations:

[b][color=DarkGreen]Election 62. Peace negotiation with the Ottoman Empire[/color][/b]
Smyrna    48%  keep
Trabzon   20%  keep
Judea     20%  vassalize and ally
        = 88%

[b][color=DarkGreen]Election 63. 1589-1599 International Situation[/color][/b]
1. Dear Friends  Spain, Savoy, Kingdom of Jerusalem
2. Friends       Bosnia, France, Bulgaria, Papal States, Knights
3. Adversaries   Genoa, Austria, Ottomans, Portugal
4. Enemies       Vijayanagar
5. WAR (but only colonial in India), otherwise PEACE
[b]6. Special issue:[/b] Force Vassalize

Hoping to see the Serenissima again soon,
Colonel and Senator Fabio Trevisan