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Heavenly Serpent

First Lieutenant
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Jun 15, 2017
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I have played 1000 hours of CK2, and I think it's time for me to finally learn how to build an army! If somebody can explain the nitty gritty of combat in CK2 to me, how to distribute troops into flanks, along with how to plan ahead, and build an army over the course of several generations of demesne development, I would *greatly* appreciate it! I want to learn how to make the most effective use of my troops, rather than just have a lot more than my enemies.
 
I'm just about to go to bed, so don't have time to explain in depth, but you can start by reading the wiki article on combat: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Combat An actual guide might be more helpful, but I find the wiki article still does a decent job of explaining how the system functions.
 
All I know is that each flank commander chooses a battle tactic based on the percentage of units present in an army, his traits and his culture. This can lead to disastrous scenarios where the commander chooses a tactic that benefits Heavy Infantry even tho they compose less than 10% of the units in the flank, and completelly nullifies all cavalry even if they made 60% of the flank, just because conflicting traits, battle phase weight or even just because there was "enough" heavy infantry for a tactic to trigger for them nevermind what else is in there; RNG. I did not bother to read any further into it because outside of retinues there is no way to control what types of levies will you get, as they are always a fixed percentage themselves. The only logical way to alter the composition of levies would be to deliberatlely cripple yourself by not building certain types of buildings so you get less of certain types of troops. I decided not to care about that long ago and I'm barely just reaching 200 hours.
 
Do a run as a horde nation. Forces you to create Hordes that practically work like EUIV armies. You will be looking up the tactics and what trigger them on the wiki, and seeing everything play out in action. Once you have the hang of it as a horde, you can transfer the knowledge over into your smaller, retinues that are usually integrated into larger armies.

One note though: There's really no use thinking about this when it comes to levies, and if you want to plan for your retinue they HAVE to be in their own seperate flank.

Also, generals: Combat traits and combat-affecting traits are everything. Martial stat merely modifies its severity.
 
From what I know so far, the following builds are pretty good:

1.: Archers + (Light Inf or Heavy Inf or Pikes)
-> You get volley and shieldwall tactics, and also the special english/welsh tactic with +350% archer ATK.
-> Make sure you don't have any light cav or horse archers in the flank, since they have anti-synergy with archers.
-> Make sure you don't have more than 60% archers under any circumstances, and make sure you don't have more than 40% archers unless you are english/welsh.

2.: Light Cav + (Heavy Cav or Light Inf)
-> You get harass tactic, which is +300% light cav offense.
-> Combine light cav with heavy cav if supply limit is an issue or with light inf if it is not. South slavic retinue is good for the former case, tibetan retinue for the latter.
-> You shouldn't have more than 75% light cav under any circumstances.

3.: Mono Camels
-> You get disorganized harass, but camels base stats are so good that it is still worth it.
-> Get a leader with defensive leader or inspiring leader traits in order to get inspired defense instead of disorganized harass.

Horse Archers can also be pretty good, but they don't get their unique tactics in difficult terrain, so they are much more situational.
 
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As far as I've gotten is

1) Build my cultural buildings.
2) Choose leadership traits that reinforce the effectiveness of the troop type I get from cultural buildings.
3) Choose a marshal/invite commanders with leadership traits that reinforce the effectiveness of the troop type I get from cultural buildings
4) If I ever get my retinue cap high enough (I play small realms and generally don't) fill your retinues with troop types that benefit from the commanders I've picked based on my cultural buildings.
5) Pick one skirmish type and one melee type (one of these will be decided by your cultural building), focus on building upgrades for them.

Is this wrong? Yes. But I never have to check the wiki to decide what to build.
 
As far as I've gotten is

1) Build my cultural buildings.
2) Choose leadership traits that reinforce the effectiveness of the troop type I get from cultural buildings.
3) Choose a marshal/invite commanders with leadership traits that reinforce the effectiveness of the troop type I get from cultural buildings
4) If I ever get my retinue cap high enough (I play small realms and generally don't) fill your retinues with troop types that benefit from the commanders I've picked based on my cultural buildings.
5) Pick one skirmish type and one melee type (one of these will be decided by your cultural building), focus on building upgrades for them.

Is this wrong? Yes. But I never have to check the wiki to decide what to build.
6)Split retinues into their own flank so the crap levies don’t interfere with tactics.
7)Have a big war chest to buy mercs.
8)Mostly just screw min/max troop composition and overwhelm with numbers! :)
 
I have played 1000 hours of CK2, and I think it's time for me to finally learn how to build an army! If somebody can explain the nitty gritty of combat in CK2 to me, how to distribute troops into flanks, along with how to plan ahead, and build an army over the course of several generations of demesne development, I would *greatly* appreciate it! I want to learn how to make the most effective use of my troops, rather than just have a lot more than my enemies.
There are really just one chain you need to follow for this: if you can make camel cavalry, make camel cavalry. If you can't make camels, make cataphracts. If you can't make cataphracts, make knights, if you can't make any of those things, make heavy infantry. To my knowledge, only special anti-cavalry composition choices will ever beat an entire army of knights/camels/cataphracts, so long as you don't do something dumb like fight across a major river into mountains while low on morale. The AI never does that, of course, which is why the Mongol Empire usually does well.
Light infantry is also also a complete joke and will melt under a couched lance charge.
 
Few good tactics

Splits regiments so you have fewest types of troops in a flank if you have a spare flank
It is better to have a 1 / 4 / 1 composition
than 2 / 2 / 2

put commanders with good cultural tactics that benefit those troops, avoid cravens, agresive, shy, lisp, organizer leaders
You can invite Generals from foreign realms

Calculate what tactics is the eneny going to use and counter them,

If splitting regiments does not improve your army all that much you should put all of your regiments into 1 flank that you think the enemy will not have many soldiers on

Use defensdef terrain, bait your enemy into attacking you by splitting your army into 2 and a putting the other outside of enemy vision, but the first force into mountains next to them and bait the enemy

You may try having 2 defensive flanks with narrow commanders and 1 offensive flank with Max damage possible

Edit 1 :
Contrary to what some people say, distributing levy regiments into flanks can bring big benefit but it diminishes depending how well built up holdings in your empire are.

Edit 2 :
Fixing the text my Autocorreckt wrongly corrected
 
Last edited:
Do a run as a horde nation. Forces you to create Hordes that practically work like EUIV armies. You will be looking up the tactics and what trigger them on the wiki, and seeing everything play out in action. Once you have the hang of it as a horde, you can transfer the knowledge over into your smaller, retinues that are usually integrated into larger armies.

One note though: There's really no use thinking about this when it comes to levies, and if you want to plan for your retinue they HAVE to be in their own seperate flank.

Also, generals: Combat traits and combat-affecting traits are everything. Martial stat merely modifies its severity.
For a horde, though, just move your capital to south Europe and build as many of the full-heavy cavalry as you can. Wrecks armies far larger.
 
I wanted to do one post, but it has gotten to long so I'll first write a post about the mechanics of combat and then later a second one explaining how to use that knowledge.

Combat is divided into three phases: skirmish, melee, and pursue. Unit types have given morale, attack, and defense values. There are separate attack and defense values for each phase of combat. You can check the wiki link I posted for a chart with all the stats. The various unit types can be broadly divided into skirmish oriented (Light Infantry, Archers, Light Cavalry, Horse Archers, Camel Cavalry) and melee oriented (Heavy Infantry, Heavy Cavalry, Pikemen, War Elephants) based on which phase of combat they do best in. Skirmish oriented unit types also do well at pursuing fleeing enemies.

Units are distributes among 3 flanks for each of the two sides, creating a total of 6 flanks. At any given time each of these flanks will be using one of the many available combat tactics. You can get all the details about the many tactics on the wiki: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Combat_tactics

Every tactic in the game has conditions which must be met in order for a flank to be able to choose it (this is often called triggering a tactic) and additional "weight modifiers" that make it more likely to trigger. The most important condition is the composition of the flank (how many soldiers of each unit type there are in the flank). Every single tactic requires a certain composition, such as minimum and maximum proportions of specific unit types. Some also require that the battle takes place on specific terrain or the commander to have a certain Martial ability, a specific culture, or specific traits. Not all tactics are good either. Some are designed to be harmful and even the good ones are often a double-edged sword in that they make one type of unit stronger and others weaker.

The Harass tactic for example will make any Light Cavalry in the flank fight much better, but it will also make all the Archers and Horse Archers completely useless. This means that ideally you'd want your entire army be made out of that one type of unit so that all your soldiers can get the bonus and none of them gets the malus. In practice however this isn't easy to achieve.

Each tactic is also part of a tactics group and many will multiply damage done against any enemy flank using tactics from a certain group. For example there is a Charge group and all the individual charge tactics (Charge, Charge on Undefended, Powerful Charge, Heroic Counter-charge, ...) belong to it. And if a flank is for example using the Force Back tactic it will do 4x damage if the enemy flank it's fighting is using any tactic from the Charge group.

There are 7 groups of tactics: Harass, Volley, Swarm, Defensive, Charge, Advance, and Stand Fast. They form a sort of paper-rock-scissors system, or rather two such systems (one for skirmish and one for melee). The skirmish set is Harass beats Swarm beats Volley beats Harass and the tactics deal 2x damage against the tactic group they beat. In melee Charge beats Advance beats Stand Fast beats Charge and the tactics deal 4x damage against the tactics group they beat. Defensive tactics neither counter nor get countered by any enemy tactics. There are also several tactics that break these rules, but they aren't that common. For example Berserker Charge is a Charge tactic that deals 2x damage against Stand-Fast tactics. These multipliers are called Affinity.

Battles start in skirmish phase and all the flanks will use skirmish tactics. Eventually they'll start triggering special Charge tactics which are skirmish tactics but change the phase of combat to melee. Once two engaged flanks are in melee they will start triggering melee tactics. It's normally impossible to go back to skirmish phase once you've entered melee phase. The only exception is if you have a commander who has a culture from the Altaic group (the various steppe peoples) and a cavalry army. Then you can get a special tactic that allows moving back to skirmish phase.

Every day of battle the attack values of all the soldiers in a flank are modified by whatever bonuses and penalties apply (the ones from tactics usually are the most important) and then added together and multiplied with ATTACK_TO_DAMAGE_MULT, which is game setting that's set to 0.01 in the unmodded game. That's the flank's damage. Or to put it a bit differently, damage is equal to 1% of all the attack values of the soldiers in the flank put together. This damage then gets multiplied by the Affinity multiplier if one applies and that's then the final damage.

This damage is then divided equally among all the soldiers on the opposing flank. That's the "damage per man". How many soldiers of each type get killed is determined by multiplying damage per man with the number of soldiers of that type and then dividing that value with the defense rating of the unit type for whichever phase of battle it's in. For example let's say you're in skirmish phase and have 100 Light Infantry and 100 Pikemen in a flank and that flank takes 40 damage. There are 200 soldiers in the flanks so the damage per man is 40/200 = 0.2. Light Infantry has a skirmish defense value of 2 so you lose 0.2*100/2= 10 Light Infantry. And the skirmish defense value of Pikemen is 4 so you lose 0.2*100/4=5 Pikemen.

Morale damage is complicated and there is a strange effect that I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet. But it is enough to know that if you do twice as much damage you will also do twice as much morale damage. The morale of a flank is the total morale value of all surviving soldiers minus any morale damage the flank has suffered. Any soldiers that have died are no longer contributing their morale score to the flank, so what the game considers 100% morale will go down throughout the course of battle. Once morale drops too low a flank will be routed and will enter the pursuit phase.

Once a flank beats it's opposing flank and sends it running it will either pursue it or it can attack another enemy flank. If a flank is attacking a flank that is already busy fighting a different flank that's called flanking and it results in bonus damage.

And I believe that's more or less it for the raw mechanics of combat. There are some details I haven't covered, but the post has gotten long enough even without them.
 
this is by far the most effective retinue army i use as long as you are not a horde
this retinue do not require any culture , any trait , and luck to work(well it do have 5% fail chance


okay let go to the point the army layout
THE MOST EASY ONE :
A FLANK with ONLY atlest 30% of heavy infantry and 30% pikeman 1% of archer with a commander at least 16 Martial

for example you creat
5 Shock retinue with 200 heavy infantry and 50 archer
4 defence retinue with 250 pikeman and 50 archer

there is a total of 1000 heavy infantry and 1000 pikeman and 450 archer
this flank in skirmish phase will have 95% triggering Shieldwall tactic
increase your flank defencesive by 240% - 300%

that is 26275 defence in this flank with only 2450 unit in here , your troops basiclly dont die
and because your trooops dont die , your moral also barely drops
if you really do lose a battle in this phase , you do not lose half of your army like you always do

if the battle long enough to drag you into melee phase(since most of the time one side will lose due to the your army can hardly change into melee phase...
you should only becarefull with the enemy countered your tactic but most of the time you will still win the fight unless you are really out numbered
IF you really losing the melee phase , just retreat then start a new battle , so that you can use your super shieldwall tactic again

*TLDR VERSION
use
60% heavy infantry / 30% pikeman (2shock : 1defence) ratio as a normal setup , this setup can let you have a stronger melee phase
60% pikeman / 30% heavy infantry (1shock : 2defence) ratio to fight horse country like mongol , this setup can also have a better shieldwall(but this doesn't matter unless enemy have high attack damage
 
this is by far the most effective retinue army i use as long as you are not a horde
this retinue do not require any culture , any trait , and luck to work(well it do have 5% fail chance


okay let go to the point the army layout
THE MOST EASY ONE :
A FLANK with ONLY atlest 30% of heavy infantry and 30% pikeman 1% of archer with a commander at least 16 Martial

for example you creat
5 Shock retinue with 200 heavy infantry and 50 archer
4 defence retinue with 250 pikeman and 50 archer

there is a total of 1000 heavy infantry and 1000 pikeman and 450 archer
this flank in skirmish phase will have 95% triggering Shieldwall tactic
increase your flank defencesive by 240% - 300%

that is 26275 defence in this flank with only 2450 unit in here , your troops basiclly dont die
and because your trooops dont die , your moral also barely drops
if you really do lose a battle in this phase , you do not lose half of your army like you always do

if the battle long enough to drag you into melee phase(since most of the time one side will lose due to the your army can hardly change into melee phase...
you should only becarefull with the enemy countered your tactic but most of the time you will still win the fight unless you are really out numbered
IF you really losing the melee phase , just retreat then start a new battle , so that you can use your super shieldwall tactic again

*TLDR VERSION
use
60% heavy infantry / 30% pikeman (2shock : 1defence) ratio as a normal setup , this setup can let you have a stronger melee phase
60% pikeman / 30% heavy infantry (1shock : 2defence) ratio to fight horse country like mongol , this setup can also have a better shieldwall(but this doesn't matter unless enemy have high attack damage
Thanks a ton! This is all really helpful stuff, I'll be able to refer back to it in the future to figure stuff like this out. I've heard from a lot of people that Elephants are almost never worth using, but I like to play in India a lot. Do you know if this is true?
 
I've heard from a lot of people that Elephants are almost never worth using, but I like to play in India a lot. Do you know if this is true?
They're expensive and paired with too many archers. Tactics-wise, it would be nice to hit the second weight-multiplier of Gray Wall, but you can't do that without allowing an enemy flank to fire the Charge on Undefended tactic against you. They also seem to be slightly bugged in a way that I don't fully understand, but it relates to their "base_type" designation in the special troops file. I'm still using them in my current India game, but I'm using a few mods that tweak them a bit.
 
In regards to Elephants: When I was doing my horde run, I tried out elephants after moving my capital to India. I could not see any effect from them in battle. It's as if they weren't there, or pretending to be Horse Archers. I can't explain it. I think I made a bug report about it..... (Has there been a forum wipe recently? Apparently I made no posts between 2015 and 2018 which makes no sense and is not true.... Asking cause I can't find said bug report or any bug reports filed during that run)

Don't think I'm touching elephants again.
 
I tried out elephants after moving my capital to India. I could not see any effect from them in battle. It's as if they weren't there, or pretending to be Horse Archers

When the Special Troops category—which includes Horse Archers, Camel Cavalry, and War Elephants—was introduced, there was a bug that caused those units to fire each other's tactics. Is that what you're talking about?

The issue that I've noticed is a bit more subtle and seems to be a consequence of the line "base_type = heavy_cavalry" in the War Elephants entry in the Special Troops file. In the combat tactics file Heavy Cavalry are called "knights". I don't know whether "heavy_cavalry" is defined elsewhere for other purposes, but consider that between v 2.2.1 and v 2.4, the Feint tactic was affected by an error in its bonuses and penalties section that referred to the Heavy Cavalry unit as "heavy_cavalry" instead of "knights". This leads me to believe that the line in the Special Troops file is an error. It's a good error in that it prevents War Elephants from firing Heavy Cavalry tactics (compare to Horse Archers firing Light Cavalry tactics because of "base_type = light_cavalry"), but it's a bad error in that it seems to mess up calculations of a flank's composition. In my India game, I was fielding a flank with the following composition: 56.9% Archers, 19.6% Pikemen, 15.7% Light Infantry, 7.8% War Elephants. I had calculated that this flank should have a 97.8% chance to fire Gray Wall at the beginning of Skirmish, but I was getting Gray Wall 77.5%, Shieldwall 15.5%, Feint 5.1%, and Generic Skirmish 1.7%. The flank was seen as having higher percentages of Pikemen (>20%) and Light Infantry (>20%) than it actually did, which was causing it to fire Shieldwall and Feint. When I changed the War Elephants entry in the Special Troops file to "base_type = knights", I got the expected chance of Gray Wall, but the War Elephants fired Heavy Cavalry tactics during melee. But that problem can be fixed through modding the Combat Tactics file.
 
Commanders:
First of all, the (Non Jade Dragon) command traits:
Defensive Leader is amazing when combined with unyielding and patient, but I dislike it because of the malus to attack, which once you defeat an army, makes it harder to eliminate
Aggressive Leader is basically the opposite, and won't help you much if you are outnumbered, but If you have an equal amount of troops or an advantage you can easily take them down
Unyielding is basically Defensive Leader without the malus to attack

Troop Leaders: I don't like using these unless my flank is entirely made up of one type of troop, in which case there is nothing better.
Terrain Leaders: Just don't bother with these. Unless you have a terrain leader of every type and switch them out right before battles, these are often useless in most cases.

Organizer is a good trait for catching up to an opponent or running away, but its really not that useful in battle unless you expect to lose

Inspiring Leader: Pretty much the only trait here that is good in any situation, no matter what happens. You just can't go wrong here, so theres no reason not to have this one.

Holy Warrior: This is self explanatory, good for heretics and infidels but not for the same religion

Flanker: This is necessary for any retinue flank that you will ever make.
Direct Leader: Overall this trait is pretty useful, not much else to say about this

Battlefield Terrain Master: THIS. This is what kills 100k mongol hordes and shreds aztec stacks. Combine it with Game Master and Boom. Basically it greatly increases the chance for a certain type of tactic to fire which makes it impossible for the enemy to attack you with more troops than you have. Its pretty pointless without good composition but i've seen amazing battles won thanks to this trait.

Don't forget, however, that command traits don't mean everything; Patient, Brave, Cruel, artifacts, and some lifestyle traits have similar effects to the command traits, so don't forget those. Also, change your commanders based on the situation. If you are being attacked, you need different traits from when you are attacking. Don't mix them up.

For composition, just have one flank of pure Calvalry, and fill the other two up with levies; The levies can tank until your cavalry wins beats its own flank and finishes off the rest.
 
They're expensive and paired with too many archers. Tactics-wise, it would be nice to hit the second weight-multiplier of Gray Wall, but you can't do that without allowing an enemy flank to fire the Charge on Undefended tactic against you. They also seem to be slightly bugged in a way that I don't fully understand, but it relates to their "base_type" designation in the special troops file. I'm still using them in my current India game, but I'm using a few mods that tweak them a bit.

How do these mods tweet the elephant retinue?
 
How do these mods tweet the elephant retinue?
One of them changes the War Elephant unit by replacing "base_type = heavy_cavalry" with "base_type = knights" in the Special Troops file. It also changes all of the tactics triggers in the Combat Tactics file to prevent War Elephants from firing Heavy Cavalry tactics, which they otherwise would because of the previous change. NB: The change to the tactics triggers also prevents Horse Archers from firing Light Cavalry tactics.

The other one slightly adjusts the ratio in the Steel Bow Infantry retinue from Archers 200:20 War Elephants (9.1% WE) to Archers 150:25 War Elephants (14.3% WE), which allows you to compose a flank that both meets the condition for the second weight-multiplier of Gray Wall (7.5% War Elephants) and stays below 60% Archers (to prevent the enemy flank from firing the "Charge on Undefended Flank" tactic).

My preferred flank composition is then SBI: Defense: Light Skirmish (8:2:1) (56.9% A, 19.6% P, 15.7% LI, 7.8% WE), which fires Gray Wall as its initial skirmish tactic 97.8% of the time. The Steel Bow Infantry retinue is still "too expensive" with these mods, which are meant to be just light fixes to things that I thought were wrong with vanilla tactics.