T.H.E. Project

[Darknesskilla]

Ok, dude, first, you need to chill, I meant no disrespect. Second, I never claimed I knew more than you on that subject, I probably know less. But it seems to me that they did, in fact, change the flag etc. I was just letting you know that maybe it could be a put off for some people (like me), who like the rest of your mod, but are put off by the "No Vichy france mentality". You don't need to listen to me, it was just a suggestion. Other than that T.H.E project sounds good

-Traduction (pour entre sur qu'on se comprends)-

Ok, calme toi, je ne voulais pas te manquer de respect. Deuxièmement, je n'ai pas dit que je j'en savais plus que toi sur le sujet, j'en sais probablement moins. Mais il me semble ils, en fait, change le drapeau national etc. et n'oublie pas que je parle du point vu officiel, qui diffèrenre souvent avec la réalité de la chose. Je voulais juste que tu sache que, si tu enlève entièrement la France Vichy, cela pourrait désinterresser certaine personnes (comme moi) qui, autrement, adorerait ton mod. Tu n'as pas besoin de m'écouter, ce n'était qu'une suggestion... note aussi que j'admire beaucoup ton travail sur le mod EWWII, je te souhaite bonne chance avec T.H.E Project. J'ai aussi remarquer que tu n'avait pas de traducteurs, si tu veux, je peut en être un...

 

[Fernando Torres]

Ok, dude, first, you need to chill, I meant no disrespect. Second, I never claimed I knew more than you on that subject, I probably know less. But it seems to me that they did, in fact, change the flag etc. I was just letting you know that maybe it could be a put off for some people (like me), who like the rest of your mod, but are put off by the "No Vichy france mentality". You don't need to listen to me, it was just a suggestion. Other than that T.H.E project sounds good

No problem, when i speak english i probably seem to be agressive or so but i'm not. Its just due to my bad english.
And well, the flag did never change, this an example of what i was talking about. Honestly, trust us, we (i mean 49h, koenig, zveroboy and me who are the leaders of this project) are all french and we all feel it like this.

And about "historical" or not, i don't want a stupid historical mod with no possibilities because the way the History took place is one of the ways it could have take place. IE Franco will be able to join Axis, Hitler'll be able to invade USSR sooner or to ask for a second pact etc. Historical realism is also important, i'll never forget it.

Oups je viens de voir la traduc...oui si tu gères bien anglais/français ça pourra beaucoup nous aider ! (pis de toute manière tu peux déjà participer en donnant des idées et propositions).
If you need a translate, just ask, i don't know how much you can speak french. However, if you understand well, i'll develop more my opinion in french about Vichy (far easier for me and i'll be able to tell all that i can't in english).

 

[Darknesskilla]

I'm perfect bilingual, my dad's an anglophone and my mom's a francophone, I go to a French school, yet write a lot inn English etc... so I can manage both well enough to translate anything you send my way.

As for Vichy, I suppose your no Vichy alternative will still have Pétain offer a armistice to the Germans etc. The rest sounds good, maybe try and see what you can add to the rather basic simulation of the Battle of the Atlantic, since your down-sizing the game...

 

[Hawk_345]

j'aime quand je vois le francais parler ici, c'est bon de le practiquer pour mois, mais c'est dificile pour cree les propres mots avec un ordinateur anglaise alors je ne peut pas faire les accents sans utiliser les numereaux est "ALT", est je ne sais pas c'est Numereaux dans ma tete come ca.

I know that french there is no where near as "neat" and "clean" as it should be but i speak/understand it beter than i write.

 

[unmerged(42794)]

Maybe I am totally impolite to infrige upon such an intelligent and expertised discussion about something like Vichy or no Vichy, but I'll do it nonetheless

Understanding your first answer about this topic I would say that no one said that France didn't exist during this time, especially not as a people, not as a culture, and even less as a history.
But it ceased to exist as the nation that France was before the loss in 1940.

None of the two Frances around during that time were the France before the loss or after, both were forced creations, by history and the results of the loss.
Like the GDR, and the FRG, none were the real Germany again until they were united, no matter how they worked, having a country, a nation being split up means all the remainders are not the whole part.
True, Petain didn't create a completely new country, he just used the leftover to create a fascist dictatorial nation, but per se it was just the souther part of France with that new system.
It was by all means not France as it was known before or is known after.
Making it Vichy is the only correct way to represent the forced occupation and division.
If however the story ends in the game, both countries reunite on the prewar borders or almost prewar borders, and are left with the chance of independent rule, then it should be France again, but imho saying that this creation that existed for a few years during WW2 is France, and would be represented-with a few slider changes you suggested- is imho an insult on what France is.
The french nation and the french people were not once during that time, and that is accurately represented by not having a france in pretty much every mod.

 

[Darknesskilla]

Tough call, I agree with Fernando and Shilo... (is that even possible :wacko: ?)... But he did, in fact, say what I meant to say a whole lot better than I did. You have to should show the change, and France was no longuer the united, free France. It was divided, in search of it's identity. THAT was what I meant. Because it would be lying to yourself that what is represented by the game's "Vichy France" never existed...

 

[Fernando Torres]

I'm perfect bilingual, my dad's an anglophone and my mom's a francophone, I go to a French school, yet write a lot inn English etc... so I can manage both well enough to translate anything you send my way.

As for Vichy, I suppose your no Vichy alternative will still have Pétain offer a armistice to the Germans etc. The rest sounds good, maybe try and see what you can add to the rather basic simulation of the Battle of the Atlantic, since your down-sizing the game...

Of course of course, Petain will be the head of state and the sliders will move a lot.
About the battle of atlantic, we first have to know if 1.2 patch will fix the ASW. But i'll do my best.
PS : added you as translater, 'll add as historical adviser too if you want. Have a look at the BoP board to see the advances.

 

[Fernando Torres]

Maybe I am totally impolite to infrige upon such an intelligent and expertised discussion about something like Vichy or no Vichy, but I'll do it nonetheless

Understanding your first answer about this topic I would say that no one said that France didn't exist during this time, especially not as a people, not as a culture, and even less as a history.
But it ceased to exist as the nation that France was before the loss in 1940.

None of the two Frances around during that time were the France before the loss or after, both were forced creations, by history and the results of the loss.
Like the GDR, and the FRG, none were the real Germany again until they were united, no matter how they worked, having a country, a nation being split up means all the remainders are not the whole part.
True, Petain didn't create a completely new country, he just used the leftover to create a fascist dictatorial nation, but per se it was just the souther part of France with that new system.
It was by all means not France as it was known before or is known after.
Making it Vichy is the only correct way to represent the forced occupation and division.
If however the story ends in the game, both countries reunite on the prewar borders or almost prewar borders, and are left with the chance of independent rule, then it should be France again, but imho saying that this creation that existed for a few years during WW2 is France, and would be represented-with a few slider changes you suggested- is imho an insult on what France is.
The french nation and the french people were not once during that time, and that is accurately represented by not having a france in pretty much every mod.

Okay. I agree with certain things, i don't with others.
Well, the two Germany examples is far different, they were two legal countries. The SU or USA did never say "there were no GDR" or no FRG. Free France is not a state ! It is not !! Do you know how did the Americans consider De Gaulle and Free France ? For them, de Gaulle was illegal and the real France, i mean, the official France, was lead by Petain.
Now listen, de Gaulle proclamed himself chief of Free France at the BBC. Do you know how many guys listen to him ? Around 50 000. Nothing.
There were never two France, i will die if not, i exactly know what was the feeling of the french people at that time cause i talked with several members of my family who lived it !
So yes, France surrendered, France lost the war but they say "France did win the war in 1945". This is THEIR interpretation. After the war, De Gaulle tried to tell us there was one France and it has always fighted but this is wrong. France surrendered AND lost the war. Now, SOME french decided to resist IN France or from foreign. But they are not a state, there were no Free France government, there were no Free France industry, there were no Free France Parliament etc etc.
And if now you've understood this feeling which is not my only state of view, you can't say that the change of regime justifies a new country. Because IG, a country is not a state. If a country and a people decide (or are forced) to change their regime, the change is represented by sldiers move IG, not by a new country. What if you'd create Vichy France ? First, you'll call it Vichy France ? This is stupid, it was called State of France. If you call it Vichy France, call RSI "Salo's Republic" or post ww1 Germany "Weimar's Republic", it's the same thing. Now about symbols. The hymn did not change. How about the flag ? Would you keep this stupid vichy flag ? But damn the flag was the one i have as avatar !! Free France had another flag, that's it ! But France, Vichy France as you call it, had the same flag that France always had in its History since 1789.

Seriously, this is probably hard for you to understand because it's not your country so...and also because so many mods and the vanilla too are made with vichy france, but if you really want realism, you can't say no to such a change. Now tell me why if i'd be wrong, many french in that forum made the same proposition ?

 

[unmerged(68424)]

Hitler'll be able (..) to ask for a second pact etc.

Yes! This mod is going to very right direction!!

Concerning France and Vichy France, don't be so french, other people can understand this

 

[Fernando Torres]

For ahistorical possibilities, i always said it was good if it's realistic.
But the ahistorical BEFORE dantzig which is realistic too would despite kill the game. But don't worry, i won't make anything alone or without discussing on it, this is not my way to work. When the time of events and general balance will come we'll have a serious debate.
Now, 49h and me have finished the ground units. We're thinking about naval and air units. If someone has any suggestion, i listen to him. At the same time, Zveroboy and Koenig are working on OoBs. (dammit 4 french guys )

 

[Darknesskilla]

Well, that settles that, as for translating, I'll start whenever you decide you want to send me something to translate !

I just read the historical advisor thing... I know a fair bit about history so I could do that as well. Specialty area ? 1944-45 (D-Day & all)

 

[unmerged(42794)]

Okay. I agree with certain things, i don't with others.
Well, the two Germany examples is far different, they were two legal countries. The SU or USA did never say "there were no GDR" or no FRG. Free France is not a state ! It is not !! Do you know how did the Americans consider De Gaulle and Free France ? For them, de Gaulle was illegal and the real France, i mean, the official France, was lead by Petain.
Now listen, de Gaulle proclamed himself chief of Free France at the BBC. Do you know how many guys listen to him ? Around 50 000. Nothing.
There were never two France, i will die if not, i exactly know what was the feeling of the french people at that time cause i talked with several members of my family who lived it !
So yes, France surrendered, France lost the war but they say "France did win the war in 1945". This is THEIR interpretation. After the war, De Gaulle tried to tell us there was one France and it has always fighted but this is wrong. France surrendered AND lost the war. Now, SOME french decided to resist IN France or from foreign. But they are not a state, there were no Free France government, there were no Free France industry, there were no Free France Parliament etc etc.
And if now you've understood this feeling which is not my only state of view, you can't say that the change of regime justifies a new country. Because IG, a country is not a state. If a country and a people decide (or are forced) to change their regime, the change is represented by sldiers move IG, not by a new country. What if you'd create Vichy France ? First, you'll call it Vichy France ? This is stupid, it was called State of France. If you call it Vichy France, call RSI "Salo's Republic" or post ww1 Germany "Weimar's Republic", it's the same thing. Now about symbols. The hymn did not change. How about the flag ? Would you keep this stupid vichy flag ? But damn the flag was the one i have as avatar !! Free France had another flag, that's it ! But France, Vichy France as you call it, had the same flag that France always had in its History since 1789.

Seriously, this is probably hard for you to understand because it's not your country so...and also because so many mods and the vanilla too are made with vichy france, but if you really want realism, you can't say no to such a change. Now tell me why if i'd be wrong, many french in that forum made the same proposition ?

The GDR and the FRG were as legal or illegal as Vichy France and Free France, ie not at all.
If a people is forced to be devided by foreign agressors, you cannot call the new creation legitimate.
L'etat francais, not France as Vichy was called (for good reasons, as it as I said, no longer represented France or the French people but a totally new state) never was considered France by anyone but a few people who have/had a hard time accepting historical facts.
There are many good reasons why of all people the French and especially the youth nowadays have a problem with Vichy, one good reason is the very lacking history lessons about this whole subject.
So, yes, you and your friends being french makes you about the worst people to talk about this subject, and your family the most biased advisers that exist.
It is your Mod, you can do what you want, but France ceased to exist until it was recreated after the war, this accurrately represented by not having a France during this time.
Neither DeGaulle nor Petain had a France, both were as ilegitimate as it can get, Vichy had only a little more legitimacy because it was, unlike Free France, still found on parts of the real France on the mainland.
It is really not important, as harsh as that may sound, how people felt, but reality. Reality meant that very soon after the surrender France ceased to exist. The result, the creation of vichy was rivaled by another illegitimate child born out of the surrender, and maybe it didn't feel a whole lot different for the French back then, although I argue people must have been blind and deaf not to feel it, but anyways, it felt different because it was.

So, what I am saying is this, Free France and Vichy should both be created as new countries, France has to cease to exist, I am not saying that DeGaulle had the real France, I am saying no one had.
And saying that a few slider changes do good to what Vichy was compared to France means a shocking lack of historic knowledge.
And btw. Weimar Republic is how the Germany between the two Reichs is called, and for example saying that Weimar and the third Reich were the same countries, just with a changed flag would be about as hilarious as calling the Vichy regime France.
Maybe the question you should ask yourself is this: Why does everyone but the French think it wasn't France? Are all others wrong, or does the distinct possibility exist that your own bias and lacking history classes have led to this error in judgement?

 

[Fernando Torres]

[...]Are all others wrong, or does the distinct possibility exist that your own bias and lacking history classes have led to this error in judgement?

Thanks for teaching me lessons and completely misunderstanding what i said. :wacko:




Now, can we talk about naval-air units ?

 

[unmerged(42794)]

Thanks for teaching me lessons and completely misunderstanding what i said. :wacko:




Now, can we talk about naval-air units ?

Now tell me why if i'd be wrong, many french in that forum made the same proposition ?

I just answered your question, very detailed, but explicitly outlining why so many french are having the same erroneous viewpoint.

 

[Fernando Torres]

Nice, you're an awesome Historical teacher and we are all dumb. Really nice to know, it'll be usefull.

 

[unmerged(85522)]

Nice, you're an awesome Historical teacher and we are all dumb. Really nice to know, it'll be usefull.

Calm down, FT, YOUR mod deserves better! Don't get involved in trench warfare.
France, Vichy France and Free France are complicated questions of WWII, their implementations in a GAME could only be approximate.

 

[unmerged(63461)]

I just answered your question, very detailed, but explicitly outlining why so many french are having the same erroneous viewpoint.

Excuse me to be French too, but I can't red what you wrote without any reaction.
First your analysis is totally erroneous. Vichy regime was totally lawful, the french parliament voted special powers to Petain while it was setting in Bordeaux so...the legal France was "the vichy regime" and we have to call it France. Fernando made a clever and appropriate explanation.
Secondly, it is not necessary to be so aggressive and to critic, as you done, french people. This not a reason because France had some difficulties to digest this dark period that we are not able to make a clear and objective analysis.
So, Thank you for your constructive criticisms, but we can pass them easily. A bon entendeur.

 

[unmerged(42794)]

Excuse me to be French too, but I can't red what you wrote without any reaction.
First your analysis is totally erroneous. Vichy regime was totally lawful, the french parliament voted special powers to Petain while it was setting in Bordeaux so...the legal France was "the vichy regime" and we have to call it France. Fernando made a clever and appropriate explanation.
Secondly, it is not necessary to be so aggressive and to critic, as you done, french people. This not a reason because France had some difficulties to digest this dark period that we are not able to make a clear and objective analysis.
So, merci de tes critiques si constructives mais nous pouvons nous en passer aisément. A bon entendeur.

Well, those special powers given were illegal, as was everything else that took place during that time.
Well, France had a very hard time digesting it, officially it wasn't acknowledged by France for a very long time, and the history classes around this topic were lacking if they took place.
And if you can't answer me in english I really don't think it is important, but I considering your problem with accepting and digesting the bad parts of your own history I doubt that you don't need help, but suit yourself.

 

[unmerged(63461)]

Well, those special powers given were illegal, as was everything else that took place during that time.

Oh I see that mister is a french third republic constitutional specialist.
But these special powers were legal, there was a special clause in the constitution, and nowadays with the fifth Republic it can be voted under very special conditions : "The President of the Council Paul Reynaud, who wanted to continue the fight, finally chose to resign on June 16, 1940.
The president Albert Lebrun then appoints Philippe Pétain President of the Council. The next day, the latter announced on the radio that France must cease fighting and seek the armistice. The government Philippe Pétain, formed in Bordeaux on June 17, and Parliament moved to Vichy in July."

 

[Fernando Torres]

Calm down, FT, YOUR mod deserves better! Don't get involved in trench warfare.
France, Vichy France and Free France are complicated questions of WWII, their implementations in a GAME could only be approximate.

Well, some stories must not be falsifated and especially when it touches your country, your story, your family, your life and when you know it better than any foreigner, you can't afford to be told that you need to be teached History lessons.
Of course those are complicated questions and we won't ever find the best solution for such a game but there's an incredible difference between thinking there were 3 different France (3rd Republic, Vichy France and Free France) and realising that France was never split but did not make any choice during the war, ANY CHOICE. Just a few french decided to join de Gaulle or to support Petain, the whole majority did not make any choice and just tried to keep alive and safe. Those guys were France and those guys, 99% of french people, were governed by the Petain governments. This is what some call Vichy France and what THEY called FRANCE. Remember : FDR called it France, Churchill called it France, 99% french people called it France. They did, so i do.

Anyway, the debate is over for me once end for all. If some disagree with us, sorry.
Now i to focus on air and naval units instead of such steril (steril in english ??)discussions.
Does anyone have a proposition ?