Somalia

[unmerged(29041)]

Well, not that it matters, but I couldn't disagree more. Check this out.

Although we do have events making Yemen an Ottoman vassal, IIRC. The arms and technology ( and troops ) came from somewhere and Adal ( IMHO ) shouldn't just get a free boost because they declare Jihad. The event could involve Yemen, if it is an Ottoman vassal.

Well, that non-academic source is mixing accepted facts, with clear mistakes and modern myths altogether. I will produce my sources when I have access to them (I am sort of in the middle of vacation, but with access). A few examples:
1) The capital of Ethiopia was not Danqaz at that time. It was a later emperor who chose Danqaz as his capital (forecoming event).
2) It can certainly be contested that Ahmad ibn-Ibrihim al-Ghazi was Somali, and most serious historians (Pankhurst for example) do so. He has been adopted by Somalis because they have no other famous historic figure, and because he was from Harar [I must check that because he could be from Zeila/Saylac], in a land currently disputed between Solmalia and Ethiopia. Adal was one of the peripheral muslim kingdoms that sometimes were part of Ethiopia, and sometimes were independent. They were mainly populated by Lowland Ethiopians that were mixed with immigrants from the Southern Arabic peninsula, not Somalies. Ahmad married his sister to a Somali whose name is known, and that brought him the support of an army of Somalies. Previously he only had the support from Mafhuz followers in Saylac, further indicating that he was not Somali.
3) Ottoman control of Yemen dates to the fall of the Mameluks (1517). Much earlier than that, events have been set in motion by Mahfuz, who was activelly buying firearms.
4) Adal and Ethiopia were far from being equal. Adal was small and lightly populated, while Ethiopia was large and heavily populated. Only the Christians in Ethiopia were far more numerous and powerful that entire Adal.
5) That the Ottomans were aware of diplomatic Portuguese missions in Ethiopia is correct. They did have spies everywhere. But that did not make Adal submissive to them. The deal between Ahmad and the Ottomans is one of these a posteriori explanations that lack any historic proof. Ahmad was buying Turkish firearms, but he was paying for them. The entire Muslim world was doing that. That does not make Adal any satellite of OE, anymore than GB is a satellite of USA. Ahmad did compromise Adal's soveraignty to get help for the battle of Wofla, but it did not come to anything because Adal virtually ceased to exist as a state after the battle of Wayna-Daga. The Ottomans then took what they wanted (the Red Sea ports) without anybody's objection, and that could be considered a payment (or not). I have already made an event in which they inherit that part of Adal if she takes the wrong choices that she took in history.
I could therefore say that your source is wrong in at least two of his/her three main enunciates:
-Adal was a Turkish satellite state. It was certainly of the same ideas (block, or whatever you want to call it), but clearly did not had any diminished soveraingty in favor of the OE.
-Gragn was not Ethiopian, he was Adal of Somali origin. This is a modern interpretation vested by political interest. Somalies don't want him to be Ethiopian, and Ethiopians don't want him to be Somali. He was not Somali, and he would have objected to be called Ethiopian, however correct that was. He could be better described as Arabic-Ethiopian, or Muslim-Ethiopian.
-The Portuguese were both a blessing in disguise and the devil amongst us. That is simply a point of view. IMHO they were just Portuguese. Welcomed when needed, and kicked out when not. The Ethiopians did what they had to do, and the Portuguese could not complain much about being treated unfairly after how they treated others in those same years.

 

[Khephren]

Well, that non-academic source is mixing accepted facts, with clear mistakes and modern myths altogether. I will produce my sources when I have access to them (I am sort of in the middle of vacation, but with access). A few examples:

Well, I realize that was a non-academic source...it just seemed to summarize a lot of what I've read. ( I only check the forums on my lunch break o ) I realize Gragn wasn't Ethiopian. So, you say Gragn paid for arms...that goes contrary to what I've read, but if so, shouldn't Adal take a big hit in the treasury?

Anyhow, I'm most interested in seeing you're Adal breakup events in the late 16th Century.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

So, you say Gragn paid for arms...that goes contrary to what I've read, but if so, shouldn't Adal take a big hit in the treasury?

Anyhow, I'm most interested in seeing you're Adal breakup events in the late 16th Century.

He paid in blood. Portuguese accounts talk about how suddenly Zeila (actual Saylac), the main port of Adal, became the biggest slave market of the Indic Ocean. You could not go to any Indian or Arabian port without seeing lots and lots of Ethiopian slaves, both Christians and Muslims. You wont find that associated with his name very often, but that is how he financed his 15 years war against a much bigger and powerful neighbor. If the Ottomans had been involved, Ethiopia would have had no chance. Nobody could stop them then. Ahmad was constantly buying firearms (arquebuses did not last very long in campaign) and had trained his elite regiments in Ottoman style. Between war devastation and massive slave trade (estimated at hundreds of thousands, perhaps over one million), he singlehandledly created what we would call today a genocide. The thus emptied land promted the Oromo to just walk and take it.

The way I am planning it, if you are playing Ethiopia you will suffer a time of troubles if you let Adal survive until 1526. Then Ahmad will unleash his Jihad, but he will ultimately fail if the Portuguese send help or if you are able to survive until 1576.

If you play Adal, and Ethiopia still exists by 1526 then you have two chances. You can chose to bet your country and unleash your Jihad, enjoying a great advantage until Portuguese help arrives, but then you must exterminate Ethiopia before 1576 to succeed. Or you can choose a peaceful path, and leave Ethiopia alone until after 1560.

If Adal and Ethiopia are at war between 1520 and 1560, the Oromo will invade. They will make 7 provinces worthless and will hit two others while completely de-centralizing the owner. They will eventually be assimilated by 1640 improving slightly the value of those provinces over starting values.

If by 1576 Ethiopia still exists, and Adal chose the war path, that means that Adal has failed her bet (as she historically did), and will collapse unable to cope simultaneously with the military defeat against Ethiopia and the Oromo invasion. Mugadishu (Somalia) should inherit one province, Ottoman Empire another, and the rest will go to Ethiopia, from the original ones. There is a last chance for a human player that has ignored the repeated instructions that he must kill Ethiopia, to secede everything, except Harar (Arsi province), and declare war to Ethiopia. In over 95% of the cases for the AI we should see the hsitorical disappearance of Adal in 1576, plus Ottoman presence in those lands, to spice things up.

Ethiopia should see a brief renaissance under the last good emperors, before plunging into the era of the princes.

That is pretty much the plan. Do you like it?

 

[Khephren]

It disappears? I thought it just kind of moved to Awsa more or less....far less powerful.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

It disappears? I thought it just kind of moved to Awsa more or less....far less powerful.

Nominally it continued existing but it really doesn't cut it any longer as a EU2 nation.
After the Oromo debacle the court was transferred to the Oasis of Aussa (Awsa) in the Denekil depression, near Afar territory. In a desert below sea-level, it is one of the worst places in Africa. But there they could keep in touch with the Ottomans at Massawa. Control of that oasis in the middle of the dessert, surrounded by Afars and Oromos does not really count as a nation. We don't even know the names of the rulers after the first two. Eventually the court of the Oasis was overrun by Afars or Oromos in 1676. The city of Harar became independent from this faraway court in 1647, behaving as a city state, without any control of surrounding terriories. We know the rulers of Harar, (although from conflicting lists) and those are the ones for a surviving Adal (therefore incorrect). But city-states are also not represented in EU2.

If in the new map, Denekil is a province, as in MKJ's map, we could see if Adal can move there by event, but it is difficult, because it was not part of Adal, but no-man's-land, as it was worthless.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Further changes in provinces:
Arsi and Harerge should be of Sunni religion.

The Oromo province-specific events will be posted in the Ethiopia thread.

# The end of Adal
# by Fodoron
event = {
	id = 155007
	trigger = {
		exists = ETH
		owned = { province = 1518 data = -1 } # Arsi
		event = 155002 # CYR: A new capital in Harar
	}
	random = no
	country = CYR
	name = "EVENTNAME155007" # The end of Adal
	desc = "EVENTHIST155007"

	date = { year = 1577 }
	offset = 150

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME155007A" # Move to Aussa (End game)
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = independence which = DEL } # Mogadishu
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 752 } # Massawa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 753 } # Keren
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 758 } # Ogaden
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1516 } # Welo
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1517 } # Shewa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1519 } # Harerge
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1588 } # Gonder
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1589 } # Kefa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1590 } # Bale
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 754 } # Issas
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 755 } # Afars
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 757 } # Somalia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 759 } # Mudugh
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 760 } # Mogadiscio
		command = { type = trigger which = 165019 } #ETH: The end of Adal
		command = { type = trigger which = 301045 } #TUR: The end of Adal
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME155007B" # Remain in Harar and beat the odds
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = independence which = DEL } # Mogadishu
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 752 } # Massawa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 753 } # Keren
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 758 } # Ogaden
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1516 } # Welo
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1517 } # Shewa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1519 } # Harerge
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1588 } # Gonder
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1589 } # Kefa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ETH value = 1590 } # Bale
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 754 } # Issas
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 755 } # Afars
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 757 } # Somalia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 759 } # Mudugh
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = DEL value = 760 } # Mogadiscio
		command = { type = war which = ETH }
		command = { type = trigger which = 165020 } #ETH: The disintegration of Adal
		command = { type = trigger which = 301045 } #TUR: The end of Adal
	}
}

EVENTNAME155007;The end of Adal;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST155007;By 1567, when Nur died of pestilence, the sultanate of Adal had been reduced to the city of Harar and the Oromo had cut the vital connection to the ports of Saylac and Barbera. What had been Adal disintegrated, part falling under control of Somalies, and most becoming Oromo lands. The Ottomans took control of the Red Sea ports as payment for their help. Meanwhile Harar was consumed by internal instability, and coups and counter-coups were responsible for the short rule of Harar Emirs. In 1575, Emir Muhammad IV made the mistake of joining the rebellion of the governor of a Muslim province in the North East of Ethiopia. He was captured and executed by Emperor Sarsa Dengel, and this defeat saw the end of Adal's last army. In 1577, the emir transferred the sultanate to the Aussa oasis in the Danakil depression. This desert below sea-level was located in no-mans land between the Afars, the Ottomans at Massawa and the Ethiopians. By moving to one of the nastiest places in Africa the sultanate prolonged its nominal existence until it was overrun by Afars and Oromo in 1672. The city of Harar, remained viable behind its walls, independent from the sultanate since 1647, as a city-state. It always has been Muslim, and today is considered the fourth sacred city of Islam. For all practical purposes, 1577 saw the end of Adal as a state. In the long chain of mistakes, one had to be the last.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME155007A;Move to Aussa (End game);;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME155007B;Remain in Harar and beat the odds;;;;;;;;;;

# The end of Adal
# by Fodoron
event = { 			
	id = 301045 #triggered by CYR_155007
	random = no     
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301045" # The end of Adal
	desc = "EVENTHIST301045"
      
	action_a = { 
		name = "ACTIONNAME301045A" # Free ports in the Red Sea
		command = { type = trade value = 200 }
	}
}

EVENTNAME301045;The end of Adal;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301045;Between 1526 and 1576, the sultanate of Adal conducted a full fledged war of conquest against Ethiopia. With firearms bought from Ottoman merchants and using Ottoman tactics, Adal almost succeeded, but last minute help from Portugal allowed Ethiopia to ultimately defeat Adal. The Ottoman governor of Yemen lent help to Adal to try to overcome the Portuguese, under promise of vassalage. In the end Adal disintegrated consumed by the war effort, the defeat, and the invasion from nomads that seized the opportunity. The Ottomans then took control of several of the former ports of Adal in the Red Sea, without anybody opposing them.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301045A;Free ports in the Red Sea;;;;;;;;;;

 

[Garbon]

Nominally it continued existing but it really doesn't cut it any longer as a EU2 nation.
After the Oromo debacle the court was transferred to the Oasis of Aussa (Awsa) in the Denekil depression, near Afar territory. In a desert below sea-level, it is one of the worst places in Africa. But there they could keep in touch with the Ottomans at Massawa. Control of that oasis in the middle of the dessert, surrounded by Afars and Oromos does not really count as a nation. We don't even know the names of the rulers after the first two. Eventually the court of the Oasis was overrun by Afars or Oromos in 1676. The city of Harar became independent from this faraway court in 1647, behaving as a city state, without any control of surrounding terriories. We know the rulers of Harar, (although from conflicting lists) and those are the ones for a surviving Adal (therefore incorrect). But city-states are also not represented in EU2.

If in the new map, Denekil is a province, as in MKJ's map, we could see if Adal can move there by event, but it is difficult, because it was not part of Adal, but no-man's-land, as it was worthless.

Umm...I'm going to have to agree with Khephren that this is a little odd. Mali became basically a non-entity in the 17th century, but we don't wipe it out as it did still exist. While it might have been quite weak and ruled over practically nothing, I don't think Mogadishu should inherit anything, as that isn't really correct.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Umm...I'm going to have to agree with Khephren that this is a little odd. Mali became basically a non-entity in the 17th century, but we don't wipe it out as it did still exist. While it might have been quite weak and ruled over practically nothing, I don't think Mogadishu should inherit anything, as that isn't really correct.

Mogadishu isn't inheriting anything that she did not own in 1419, except for one province (Northern Somalia or Somaliland) that strictly speaking should not be ruled by anybody, but that is inhabited by Somalies nevertheless.

Adal certainly desintegrated as a state, as Ifat has done previously. If we help states been born at the right time, I don't see why we should not help them die at the right time. Some inheritances in Europe are actually desintegrations with somebody grabbing the pieces.

 

[Garbon]

Adal certainly desintegrated as a state, as Ifat has done previously. If we help states been born at the right time, I don't see why we should not help them die at the right time. Some inheritances in Europe are actually desintegrations with somebody grabbing the pieces.

Perhaps that is because, the best way of simulating the region after the disintegration of the state would be to have it unowned. However, Eu2 doesn't allow for that, nor would we actually want that as then some random entity would colonize it. It is the same for nations with the problem on the opposite end, we shouldn't really see the Ashanti until a few centuries in. However, we can't leave the province empty as we don't really want it colonized and if it is unowned we can never get Ashanti to revolt.

While we can certainly change it, the general guideline so far has been to keep the state in or start them in early but just in a horribly broken sort of way. Only when we can reasonably give those provinces away, do we do so. This is not the case with Mogadishu which really only owned its capital province. Everything else was either owned by Ajuran (I believe their capital either belongs in Mogadishu's capital province or is slightly in the PTI) or independent chiefs. I don't think we should compound that gross representation by adding another province to the mix.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Perhaps that is because, the best way of simulating the region after the disintegration of the state would be to have it unowned. However, Eu2 doesn't allow for that, nor would we actually want that as then some random entity would colonize it. It is the same for nations with the problem on the opposite end, we shouldn't really see the Ashanti until a few centuries in. However, we can't leave the province empty as we don't really want it colonized and if it is unowned we can never get Ashanti to revolt.

While we can certainly change it, the general guideline so far has been to keep the state in or start them in early but just in a horribly broken sort of way. Only when we can reasonably give those provinces away, do we do so. This is not the case with Mogadishu which really only owned its capital province. Everything else was either owned by Ajuran (I believe their capital either belongs in Mogadishu's capital province or is slightly in the PTI) or independent chiefs. I don't think we should compound that gross representation by adding another province to the mix.

I agree that not owned by anybody but not colonizable would be the ideal status. Giving that that is impossible, it becomes a question of preference who should own them.

But the situation of the area is not very different to what we have now. Somalia is ruled by warlords, and althuough it has borders, a national flag, and a government, most of the country has reverted to chiefdom status. Yet in all the maps, it appears as a country. Some of its spin-offs are known yet unrecognized. Describing Somalia today is not very different to the problem that we face in EU2, and some simplification is needed.

Adal ceased to exist entirely. Most of her territory became controlled by Ethiopia in post-EU2 times, and was previously unclaimed by any other state. Giving a province with port to the Ottomans represents quite well the importance they acquired in the area.

In my opinion this representation, however incorrect, is better than others, but as I said, is a question of preference.

Adal can save herself by chosing an option B, as standard for alternate results in AGCEEP.

 

[Garbon]

It doesn't exactly matter what maps from the period looked like, if we know that they weren't entirely accurate. Mogadishu owned very little territory and certainly did not own more than one eu2 province. Mogadishu only owns 3 because I didn't know of Ajuran at the time and needed to make sure those two provinces weren't colonizable. So Mogadishu is pretty much at its limit for how many provinces it should have/get, as it is already over its limit. Thus, while handing a province over to Mogadishu, you might get a setup that you think is the best we can do for Adal, but you are really just passing the ahistoricity to Mogadishu.

I'm fine with ceding territory to Ethiopia and Ottomans, as although I do think the latter is a slight stretch, it isn't so bad as it does like you say, represent their importance in teh region.

This isn't that I want the state of Adal to survive forever, but that sometimes we have to use a tag as placeholder before or after the nation being represented was there.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

It doesn't exactly matter what maps from the period looked like, if we know that they weren't entirely accurate. Mogadishu owned very little territory and certainly did not own more than one eu2 province. Mogadishu only owns 3 because I didn't know of Ajuran at the time and needed to make sure those two provinces weren't colonizable. So Mogadishu is pretty much at its limit for how many provinces it should have/get, as it is already over its limit. Thus, while handing a province over to Mogadishu, you might get a setup that you think is the best we can do for Adal, but you are really just passing the ahistoricity to Mogadishu.

I'm fine with ceding territory to Ethiopia and Ottomans, as although I do think the latter is a slight stretch, it isn't so bad as it does like you say, represent their importance in teh region.

This isn't that I want the state of Adal to survive forever, but that sometimes we have to use a tag as placeholder before or after the nation being represented was there.

The distinction between a country artificially kept to hold one or more provinces as placeholder, or those one or more provinces artificially given to a neighbour of same culture as placeholder escapes me.

 

[Garbon]

Uhh...because this change is harming the history of Mogadishu by making it suddenly a nation that could be fueding with Ethiopia.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Uhh...because this change is harming the history of Mogadishu by making it suddenly a nation that could be fueding with Ethiopia.

I see, because having Adal eating Mogadishu completely as in my last test will not harm their histories.
Ethiopia seems to keep quite a lot for herself unless ganged-up by Muslims. The Oromo events will further that introspection, as basically she doesn't make money or advance due to all those suddenly worthless provinces. Between 1650 and 1740 she should recover some, but more than half of the country will be Sunni.

 

[Garbon]

I see, because having Adal eating Mogadishu completely as in my last test will not harm their histories.
Ethiopia seems to keep quite a lot for herself unless ganged-up by Muslims. The Oromo events will further that introspection, as basically she doesn't make money or advance due to all those suddenly worthless provinces. Between 1650 and 1740 she should recover some, but more than half of the country will be Sunni.

Please don't try to finish this argument with a sidetrack. I still think that provinces should be ceded to Ethiopia and the Ottomans, so we're just talking about have a 1-2 province Adal after its collapse. This broken state with little tax base will hardly be able to eat Mogadishu.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Please don't try to finish this argument with a sidetrack. I still think that provinces should be ceded to Ethiopia and the Ottomans, so we're just talking about have a 1-2 province Adal after its collapse. This broken state with little tax base will hardly be able to eat Mogadishu.

We never finished this issue, and we should do it so we can submit the Ethiopian-Adal work.

So you are fine with the collapse of Adal and secession of provinces to Ethiopia and one province to Ottomans.

You are not fine with the cession of two Somali provinces to Mogadishu. And you are not fine with the scripted disappearance of Adal at her historic ending.

Is that right?

 

[Garbon]

We never finished this issue, and we should do it so we can submit the Ethiopian-Adal work.

So you are fine with the collapse of Adal and secession of provinces to Ethiopia and one province to Ottomans.

You are not fine with the cession of two Somali provinces to Mogadishu. And you are not fine with the scripted disappearance of Adal at her historic ending.

Is that right?

True. My suggestion for the last paragraph is to have a rump state Adal with those two provinces.

 

[Garbon]

And for the record, it isn't because I take issue with Adal's disappearance. My problem is adding two provinces to Mogadishu when it already is 3 times as large as it should be. Mogadishu should not be the refuse pile for problem provinces.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Then we still disagree on that, because I prefer ahistoric borders than ahistoric countries. If those two provinces have Somali culture, and Mogadishu is the only Somali state, and those two provinces were not governed by anybody, I rather have them in the hands of Mogadishu.
Besides it is not very different from what is happening today in the exact same place with the exact two provinces. Two unrecognized statelets (Somaliland, and I don't remember the name of the other), claim to be independent, while a government-less Somalia claims they are part of their territory.
If the international comunity does not recognize them today, what is the problem with us doing the same in 1600?

 

[Garbon]

Umm...because Mogadishu was sort of like a city state, the amount of territory it owned was like nil. For all intents and purposes they are a Zanj state. Giving them all of the Somali provinces, just because they have somali as a secondary culture is totally bizarre. Mogadishu really doesn't have rights to 2 of its 3 provinces right now, so it should not be bloated to 5.

And the standard is for rump states, after all, that is what we have with Mali in West Africa. We don't have the tags to accurately parcel out those provinces so we leave a backwards stunted Mali. Sort of the same with Mataram...although that situation is totally screwy at the moment.

Oh and on putting the current situation back in time...Mogadishu doesn't claim to be anything other than one province big. So you don't really have the same situation...at all.