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I actually look extremely similar to Nikephoros, no joke. No gray hairs yet, (I've got plenty of red though, I'm a leprechaun!) but I've got the beard and my hair is actually longer than his. Plus, my beard also is curly while my hair is straight, just like his, only a bit straighter. Anyways, while the intelligence agents of SOMEONE (Like I said, I really can't even think of anybody at this moment who would rather have THOMAS THE LOON on the throne, than Nikephoros.) would perhaps have more independence in their duties, but to the point of giving the go-ahead to assassinate the most important man in the entire world? I doubt anyone would do that without some concrete knowledge that this was what was expected, and they would certainly be wanting guaranteed or already given compensation. This guy isn't some provincial baron, he's literally the most powerful, important man in the world.

As for people who would rather see a weak emperor - well, there are the Mongols, probably some remnants among the Turks, there's Gabriel, who could want him dead just for usurping his prerogatives as emperor, and who is probably confident in his ability to manipulate his brother...

Regarding requiring concrete evidence of intent - "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" was an outburst in anger, not actually geared towards killing Thomas a Becket, but we know how that turned out. Similarly, the conspirators against Caesar didn't have a concrete plan for how that would turn out, either. John Wilkes Booth - again, a man without clear guidance, but with a conspiracy on his side. That's three cases off the top of my head where local agents acting on behalf of a supposed constituency murdered someone, twice a head of state and the last a major public figure, only to find out that their supposed support didn't exist.
 
Impressive reforms by Nikephoros. Many leading scholars state that centralisation of the state (and reigning in pesky nobles) started when monarchs started to look at ways to keep larger and more reliable armies in the field. The higher need for money to finance this lead to maximising the gathering tax revenue while the increased need for coördination caused the rise of a proffesional bureaucracy. However, most of the reforms named above took place in the 18th century. Let's hope that Nicky can push his reforms through.

Also, Andronikos love of music made me think of Nero for some reason. Let's hope for the Empire it was just me...
 
As for people who would rather see a weak emperor - well, there are the Mongols, probably some remnants among the Turks, there's Gabriel, who could want him dead just for usurping his prerogatives as emperor, and who is probably confident in his ability to manipulate his brother...

Regarding requiring concrete evidence of intent - "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" was an outburst in anger, not actually geared towards killing Thomas a Becket, but we know how that turned out. Similarly, the conspirators against Caesar didn't have a concrete plan for how that would turn out, either. John Wilkes Booth - again, a man without clear guidance, but with a conspiracy on his side. That's three cases off the top of my head where local agents acting on behalf of a supposed constituency murdered someone, twice a head of state and the last a major public figure, only to find out that their supposed support didn't exist.

Well the Mongols MIGHT, but would the Mongols have any way of knowing about this random hunting trip? Besides, they wouldn't want to risk war starting up with the Romans, especially now that they're unified AND the mongols still have Altani to deal with and the Japanese invasion can't have been a cakewalk either. It'll be mostly dismounted mongolian warriors and east asian spear leveis against small core groups of samurai and their households, along with villager levies trained by said samurai mostly. I doubt the mongols would LOSE if they managed to get across the sea with a force, but they won't just plow through. And the conspirators against Caesar didn't really NEED a plan, they were doing it to "save the republic" in their eyes, and they DIDN'T work for anybody. John Wilkes Booth was a disgruntled man with a gun and a grudge, not a confederate agent. The war was already over. And as for Father Becket, THAT caused a tremendous uproar, was NOT appreciated by the King to say the least, and was not a case of some assassin working on his own, but rather a group of hothead knights hoping to gain royal favor. Nobody who knows of this trip really qualifies as any of those, and like I said, even Caesar or Abe weren't quite as powerful as Nikephoros, nor did they have an armed hunting party with them... Abe got shot in the dome at the opera. Caesar got stabbed in the back going to a frickin board meeting in his nightie. I can see an accident happening, though I somewhat doubt it. Certainly the chance of a FATAL accident are quite slim, anyways. Maybe something similar to Manuel's being confined to bed for a while.
 
Well the Mongols MIGHT, but would the Mongols have any way of knowing about this random hunting trip? Besides, they wouldn't want to risk war starting up with the Romans, especially now that they're unified AND the mongols still have Altani to deal with and the Japanese invasion can't have been a cakewalk either. It'll be mostly dismounted mongolian warriors and east asian spear leveis against small core groups of samurai and their households, along with villager levies trained by said samurai mostly. I doubt the mongols would LOSE if they managed to get across the sea with a force, but they won't just plow through. And the conspirators against Caesar didn't really NEED a plan, they were doing it to "save the republic" in their eyes, and they DIDN'T work for anybody. John Wilkes Booth was a disgruntled man with a gun and a grudge, not a confederate agent. The war was already over. And as for Father Becket, THAT caused a tremendous uproar, was NOT appreciated by the King to say the least, and was not a case of some assassin working on his own, but rather a group of hothead knights hoping to gain royal favor. Nobody who knows of this trip really qualifies as any of those, and like I said, even Caesar or Abe weren't quite as powerful as Nikephoros, nor did they have an armed hunting party with them... Abe got shot in the dome at the opera. Caesar got stabbed in the back going to a frickin board meeting in his nightie. I can see an accident happening, though I somewhat doubt it. Certainly the chance of a FATAL accident are quite slim, anyways. Maybe something similar to Manuel's being confined to bed for a while.

My point stands. There are people who stand to benefit from a weakening of Imperial authority, palaces are by their very nature information-porous, and local agents on the ground have a habit of doing things that they think benefit their patrons but have unintentional, disastrous consequences.
 
Andronikos is the man ive been waiting for! Manuel reborn to force rome into her tip top shape.

Oh, there will be blood.

I doubt it. He doesn't have that... thing. And being Manuel doesn't mean killing everyone off. It means being so devious and inteligent that you see killing them off as the easiest way of achieving your goals.

And he might become a sociopath at best.

Just my 2 Cents. ;)
 
So Andronikos is probably insane/sociopathic/fill-in-the-blank. Great.

This is definitely my nerdiness shining through, but for me the most interesting part of the update was the new details on the Byzantine military bureaucracy--which now apparently resembles the complexity of NATO. (Seriously: I keep waiting for numbered task forces and "II Corp, 8th Army, Army Group East" to show up somewhere...) The posts of CinC West and CinC East seems especially worrisome to me: that's a lot of power concentrated in individuals outside of the immediate sight of the Emperor, and situations like that don't tend to end well. Then again, perhaps its a sign of Imperial maturity that an Emperor can trust his military bureaucracy enough to devolve large amounts of power to their operational command and trust them to remain loyal.

Somehow, I doubt that things are that peachy.
 
That will depend on if his immediate subordinates support him, and then if their subordinates support them ad infinitum. That is the beauty of the system that Nikephoros has established. Not only does it give the immediate benefits that he suggest, but there are layers upon layers of ranks and commanders that will check should one or two decide to step outta line, especially if most of them are appointed by the Emperor or promoted by loyal Generals appointed by the Emperor.
 
Wow, the Byzantine has become even more byzantine. I wonder if people who did not go to Byzantine Administration School from the age of 5 onwards will understand at all how this system works. This is the 13th century after all, most kingdoms of the time were fairly simply in their structures. :eek:

Imagine what the Kings of Sortmark would say when you show them the organizational chart of the Byzantine empire. :D They would probably think the Empire has been wholly taken over by priests and bureaucrats. Oh wait, they're right.... :D

Talking about people outside the empire: What are the inter-ethnic relations in the countries which have in the last 150 years come under Greek rule? How do the burghers of the Italian trading cities and the feudal aristocrats in ex-Latin regions perceive their situation, vis-a-vis to that of the recently immigrated Greek administrators, businessmen and nobles? Surely there must be intense rivalry, especially commercially. How bad are inter-ethnic tensions?

I recently read about ethnic hatred in the Byzantine empire, specifically Constantinople, before the 4th crusade. Historically the Komnenid emperors (not doing nearly as well as those in this AAR) were more or less forced to grant the Italians tax exemptions and all sorts of priviledges, which let the Italians out-compete virtually all the Greek traders and left only a really small group of export traders who sold directly to the Italians. The people of Constantinople developed a really intense hate against Latins in general. And one fine day in 1182, after the overthrow of the notoriously pro-Latin regency by Andronikos II, the Greek people of Constantinopolis massacred almost the entire Latin population of the city (60,000 people) and sold the remainder (4,000) as slaves to the Turks. :eek:

Wiki: "Massacre of the Latins"

The Empire has brought peace to many regions, but its spread also led to the decline of many previously ascendant cities, most notably Venice, Genoa and Pisa (conquered -and ravaged- during the reign of Thomas I IIRC). Subsequent emperors established more and more layers of Greek-dominated administration over the conquered territories. Without a doubt there are many Italians who don't mind being ruled over by Greeks, but what about those who resent the foreign rule?

We've seen many of the nice sides of this Komnenid Empire. The vanquishing of various crusader kingdoms. The defeat of the Latin rival kingdoms, and the conquest of their proud cities. The establishment of Greek hegemony over the mediterranean world, and the spread of Greek culture, religion and commerce throughout this world. However what about the defeated? The masses of people who now have no prince of their own, defending their lives and their land, no king of their own who administers justice by their own laws. Only Greeks who lord it over them. And a distant Emperor, whose days and nights are totally absorbed just by keeping his own soldiers in check and reshuffling the gigantic bureaucracy.

Has the Empire, in its greatest triumphs, in its unification under one victorious throne, planted the seed for its own downfall? How can a distant emperor administer justice to his innumerable subjects? If the top of the pyramid is so busy just hanging on to power, and the top aristocracy so absorbed in grabbing as much power for themselves as they can, who looks out for the good of the little people? When will the resentment of the disenfranchised conquered peoples, who still remember the days when they had it good, explode into violence? How long can the Empire still hold on to its vast conquests, before it all collapses into a storm of death and destruction?
 
Well, the latin princes weren't exactly going and throwing coin at the people or anything, they were too busy fighting other latins. The Greeks don't seem like they are too harsh of an overlord, they merely ask taxes and military service if that particular area is threatened. This new system actually makes things quite a bit more fair than before, because the army groups will likely only be raised if their sector is threatened, meaning each soldier has a personal stake, however small or large it might be. The Italians might be quite disgruntled, but I would image that has disappeared with time, since the ravaging of Italy was under Christina's regency mostly. By now the Italian families who amounted to anything are probably interbreeding with Greek officials, and the poorer Italians haven't any reason to be bothered by what their rulers are doing, since they would be just as disadvantaged if not more so under a Latin Count so strapped for cash he needs to tax the peasants into oblivion. I don't think that serfdom is part of the economic system of the Empire, so that's certainly good for them. The North Spanish were pretty troublesome, but that was mostly for religious reasons, not Ethnic. I don't think they really cared about being ruled by a Greek as much as being ruled by a man who had such Saracen tendencies. And of course I'd say that in the East, where Islam is still dominant, that religious tensions take the forefront of any conflict between the ruling class and the rest of the populace. In this time period, it seems like Religion > Class = Ethnicity > Nationality > Other Stuff. Nationality only being a minor factor, but probably increasing in import as Religion fades from prominence, just as in OTL.
 
Well, the latin princes weren't exactly going and throwing coin at the people or anything, they were too busy fighting other latins.
Of course, but nostalgia tends to cloud the memory. :p

The Greeks don't seem like they are too harsh of an overlord, they merely ask taxes and military service if that particular area is threatened. This new system actually makes things quite a bit more fair than before, because the army groups will likely only be raised if their sector is threatened, meaning each soldier has a personal stake, however small or large it might be. The Italians might be quite disgruntled, but I would image that has disappeared with time, since the ravaging of Italy was under Christina's regency mostly. By now the Italian families who amounted to anything are probably interbreeding with Greek officials, and the poorer Italians haven't any reason to be bothered by what their rulers are doing, since they would be just as disadvantaged if not more so under a Latin Count so strapped for cash he needs to tax the peasants into oblivion. I don't think that serfdom is part of the economic system of the Empire, so that's certainly good for them.
Well for the rural regions that is all fine and dandy, but before the Thomasine invasions northern Italy was an economically prosperous region with many rich, proud cities that valued their independence VERY HIGHLY. Not just peasants who gave a shit and aristocrats who quarreled among each other. Thomas sacked and destroyed a number of cities, and frankly some of the cities like Genoa and Venice will sorely miss their independence no matter how "nice" the Empire treats them. (I.e. only tax them dry sometimes and only staff half the public offices with Greeks, instead of all of them... :rolleyes:) Come on, Italy is ruled by foreigners, and Italy is not some savage backwater where the locals accept their obviously superior masters who bring them culture and sanitation and stuff. In southern Italy, where they have a history of foreign domination, they might not care much, but northern Italy has been fiercely independent and the people were used to running their own affairs before Thomas' army showed up, tore down their city walls and imposed a truly Byzantine hierarchy of occupation and foreign administration on them.

The Greeks may be benevolent masters but if you look at their historical record, there's one thing the Byzantine Empire was REALLY were bad at, and that is decentralized governance. I don't buy the story that all is fine and dandy in Italy because the oh so wise Greeks brought peace and prosperity for everyone and wisely abstain from meddling in the affairs of the locals. You don't conquer a religiously and ethnically alien, affluent country with independent cities and integrate them into a strong (Byzantine!!!) Empire like that. Even with exarchates and themata and all that stuff.

The North Spanish were pretty troublesome, but that was mostly for religious reasons, not Ethnic. I don't think they really cared about being ruled by a Greek as much as being ruled by a man who had such Saracen tendencies. And of course I'd say that in the East, where Islam is still dominant, that religious tensions take the forefront of any conflict between the ruling class and the rest of the populace. In this time period, it seems like Religion > Class = Ethnicity > Nationality > Other Stuff. Nationality only being a minor factor, but probably increasing in import as Religion fades from prominence, just as in OTL.

Don't underestimate ethnicity. It is not a modern invention. People tend to be hostile to strangers when they don't have a reason to be nice, especially when they are hungry or feel they are badly off in life.

As I mentioned, the Byzantines themselves had really nasty pogroms at times, and the Latin massacre of 1182 can only be described as a bloodbath driven by anti-Italian and anti-Latin hatred.
 
Well, the Latin Massacre never happened this go around. And Basil, the Megaloprepis, one of the most beloved rulers of Romanion, was decidedly Latin in many of his mannerisms, even if he never converted to Catholicism or anything that serious. I don't think that the Northern Italians or the Northern Spanish would be that upset about being nominally ruled over by Greeks, with a native local government. No more upset than they might have been being technically subordinate to Germans. Although the Blacks and the Whites were at each other's throats over the conflict between the Pope and the Emperor, they weren't exactly upset about the ethnicity of the Emperor, but rather his piety/lack thereof. The sort of fierce hatred for Latins that you describe probably hasn't really formed so much in this timeline. Yeah, there's bound to be tension between a Frenchman and an Athenian, but the MAJORITY of the people wouldn't care enough to make any significant problems. Yes, some disenfranchised merchant families from Genoa, Florence, Venice, Milan, etc. would be pretty disgruntled, but they are probably already married into the aristocracy by now and have managed to start raking in the gold again. Merchants above all else need to be able to actually conduct business without pirates and brigands along the routes their merchandise travels. The fact that the entire Mediterranean is practically a Byzantine Lake means that piracy naturally will have decreased, and the roadways of the Empire are certainly much safer than before, since they have the manpower required for adequate patrols. So yes, their profits take a hit after their little republics are dissolved and made part of the empire, but the safety that comes with being a roman vassal makes trade much safer and efficient.
 
Another factor worth mentioning in the ethnicity debate: successful empires tend to be very good at co-opting local elites, and Romanion is no exception. To be sure, there are probably cases of well-connected greek merchants steamrolling their commercial opposition...but it's not like there's a greeks-only Imperial Civil Service running the Empire like the Raj circa 1880. Just about everyone involved in local and regional government is still a local themselves, and while conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy might seem like a good deal for an ambitious young aristocrat/merchant/would-be bureaucrat, there's no systematic attempts at conversion or cultural homogenization.

For the most part, Empire is good for business: merchants get pirates-free sea lanes, peasants get peace and quiet unless they're unlucky enough to get caught in the crossfire of a Komnenid civil war, and taxes are complained about regardless of who is in charge. For now, things are pretty good.
 
Well, well. While this Nikephorian setup may be good at avoiding epic intra-familial civil wars, it will be also good at starting up soldier-emperors or soldier-pretenders of all stripes.

As always, great stuff. Just so much work goes into this one, it's hard to compare any other AAR with it.
 
Yes, this AAR is ridiculously awesome. I mean, Knud is fine stuff and all, but quite honestly nothing else even comes close to the sheer amount of detail and story as this AAR. It's not even that much of an AAR, is the real beauty of it. It's almost like a series of novels BASED on an AAR. You could totally read this and it would be awesome without even playing Crusader Kings, whereas most AARS are more like pictures of the gameplay, a slight story or narrative, usually from the ruler's point of view, with some other narrators for variety, and that's about it. Not three-page epic battle scenes, interims explaining the various
bureaucratic and military structures within the Empire, and side-adventures ranging from a womanizing spaniard raised to become an imperial agent, to a vengeful mongol princess, a religious prophet's rise to fame, and who can forget the mis-adventures of those poor Norman crusaders in Egypt, and their slightly moon-touched leader?

In short, this rocks!
 
Imagine what will happen when this thing goes EU3 and has a head on collision with Timelines for Narative dominance.
 
Imagine what will happen when this thing goes EU3 and has a head on collision with Timelines for Narative dominance.

Well, AFAIK Timelines only has one more season left, and Rome AARisen still has at least another year to go, so I'm not expecting too much overlap there. Moreover, Rome AsundAAR (or whatever BT ends up calling the sequel) would last from 1399 all the way to 1820, or whenever he decides to call it quits. Such a project would be years in the making, so I'm expecting/hoping to see a very long and healthy Byzantine prominence in the EU3 forums in the not too distant future. :)
 
Well for the rural regions that is all fine and dandy, but before the Thomasine invasions northern Italy was an economically prosperous region with many rich, proud cities that valued their independence VERY HIGHLY. Not just peasants who gave a shit and aristocrats who quarreled among each other. Thomas sacked and destroyed a number of cities, and frankly some of the cities like Genoa and Venice will sorely miss their independence no matter how "nice" the Empire treats them. (I.e. only tax them dry sometimes and only staff half the public offices with Greeks, instead of all of them... :rolleyes:) Come on, Italy is ruled by foreigners, and Italy is not some savage backwater where the locals accept their obviously superior masters who bring them culture and sanitation and stuff. In southern Italy, where they have a history of foreign domination, they might not care much, but northern Italy has been fiercely independent and the people were used to running their own affairs before Thomas' army showed up, tore down their city walls and imposed a truly Byzantine hierarchy of occupation and foreign administration on them.
Actually Northern Italy were under the rule of the "Holy Roman Empire" for much of its medieval history, forreign rulers is by no means something new. As I understand it the Greeks followed their standard modus operandi, i.e: They went in told the local senate "All your base are belong to us, k thx bai" and pretty much left the local powers run the show, buisness as usual, except that the Imperial Tax-system was expanded to cover that city and a Strategos installed somewhere in the vicinity to keep an eye on things. So for the average merchant prince or guild alderman, nothing has really changed, except that they are now burdened by a tax-system that is the finest in the western world (chances are that they end up paying less taxes after the Empire moves in on them), new roads (the Greeks inherieted the Romans tendency to build roads everywhere), less bandits and pirates (except for Venice and Genoa the Italian city-states power ended at the gates) and access to a market spanning the entire Mediterranean, plus they no longer have to pay import taxes to get into said market. I imagine that there were propperly a few grumpy old men muttering about independence, but after the first generation passed I think the merchant princes were just a tad too busy drowning in money to care (oh and that would be Roman GOLD solidi not some petty little local silver piece of doubtful purity).

Don't underestimate ethnicity. It is not a modern invention. People tend to be hostile to strangers when they don't have a reason to be nice, especially when they are hungry or feel they are badly off in life.

No ethnicity isnt a modern invention, but during the middle ages it really did not matter very much. People tended to be much more local and insular in their outlook and their loyalities pretty much ended at the city gates. The modern Nation-States as we know them just wern't around at this time, Italians for instance would never call themselves Italians, they would call themselves Venetians or Pisans or what have you. And you better belive they wern't too fond of those strange sheep-buggering inbreds just over on the other side of the river, who were, as their grandfathers had told them, a bunch of thieves and murderers down to the last infant.
Actually being an honest to God foreigner would properly be an advantage, sure they are a bunch of strange Greeks with weird customs, but at least they arn't one of those from over the river. And since the central government generaly stays out of peoples buisness, what reason is there to be dissatisfied? Religion might be a source of problems, but the Orthodox Church has never been too keen on the whole holy-war and conversion by sword thing (one of its nicer traits imo), and its one thing to die fighting for your right to worship, its quite another to get yourself killed fighting because some dude in far of Konstantinople dosn't say "Filioque".

As I mentioned, the Byzantines themselves had really nasty pogroms at times, and the Latin massacre of 1182 can only be described as a bloodbath driven by anti-Italian and anti-Latin hatred.
Mostly this was when the Empire was under pressure and the people needed someone to blame, but things are going pretty well for the Empire so there isnt a need to find any scapegoats.


The Greeks may be benevolent masters but if you look at their historical record, there's one thing the Byzantine Empire was REALLY were bad at, and that is decentralized governance. I don't buy the story that all is fine and dandy in Italy because the oh so wise Greeks brought peace and prosperity for everyone and wisely abstain from meddling in the affairs of the locals. You don't conquer a religiously and ethnically alien, affluent country with independent cities and integrate them into a strong (Byzantine!!!) Empire like that. Even with exarchates and themata and all that stuff.
Thats just not true, the Theme system itself is propperly one of the finest excamples of decentralized governance of all time! The "Byzantines" had experience in ruling everything from Greeks over Syrians to Copts to Turks and litteraly a houndred other different peoples in between, they did it precisely because they never tried to impose any form of direct centralized government, which is patently impossible anyways without modern communication equipment. In reality the Empire is, by necessity, more a federation of cities and tribes, held together by a finely tuned bureaucracy, than it is anything we would call a nation. The Empire is aproaching its second milinia, no other civilization (except maybe ancient Egypt) can claim that, and over those two thousand years the "Byzantines" build arguably the finest system for governing so many disparate peoples that the world has ever seen.
:eek: Oh boy! Wall of text, sry!:wacko:
 
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