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((I don't recall kicking Graetius out))
"That is why I have noted on the bill that they must justify the reasoning for the vote of No Confidence. If the reason is not a valid one, then they cannot bring up a Vote of No Confidence. Thus, it cannot be abused as a political weapon as there has to be evidence behind the allegations, which would be looked upon by a neutral party and they would determine if the reasons are just and acceptable. We would not be removing our Imperator just from free will. It must be justified.
Also, what say you if we had an Imperator that was adored by the masses, but was corrupt, and say we were unable to vote them out of power. They could end up being put back in power consistently until their death if their public popularity remained. That is not what we would want, which is why I believe that the length of which an Imperator can rule should be limited."-Auron Desimodius
May I ask Senator Desimodius who gets to decide whether the reason is justified? Surely it cannot be the Imperator or the senate, and I should hope you don't plan to give this power to some faceless bureaucrat. Neither can we give this power to the people, otherwise we should just call another election. May I suggest that he give this power to the Council of High Judges, for whom justice is the be all and end all of service.
"The Council of High Judges would be the most fitting, as long as those that are members of it leave their political and personal views upon a person out of their neutral decision making and deal with it professionally. It obviously has to be a neutral party that has authority but does not have ties with any particular side within this Senate."-Auron Desimodius
((I don't think Auron kicked him out so much as challenged his leadership))
Ah but sir who decides if the vote is valid or not? Not the Senate or the Imperatar of course because of the level of abuse available by both sides. Even if we established some council to vote on it they are only men, and ceseptable to all the temptations that men are. We live in a democracy it is for the people to decide who they want or not.
((Also does anyone else find it odd that in a game where people can basically form any parties they want any time they want we are already seeing the birth of a two-party system?))
Ah but sir who decides if the vote is valid or not? Not the Senate or the Imperatar of course because of the level of abuse available by both sides. Even if we established some council to vote on it they are only men, and ceseptable to all the temptations that men are. We live in a democracy it is for the people to decide who they want or not.
As I state previously we are a democracy, the masses have the capability to support a flawed leader just as much as us Senators do, yet it in the end it is there choice, not ours, or we should become an Oligarchy against both the core tenents of the Republic and the core Tenents of our party.
((Also does anyone else find it odd that in a game where people can basically form any parties they want any time they want we are already seeing the birth of a two-party system?))
"Judges separate their duty and their politics every time they do their job; there should be no doubt that our personal scruples will in any way impede determining the validity of the claim, assuming of course that there were clear guidelines as to the powers to Imperator is allowed to hold and what sorts of actions would be unconstitutional."
((I don't think it's fair to say we have developed a two party system, especially considering how easily the parties morphed in the Victoria 2 AARs))
((I don't think it's fair to say we have developed a two party system, especially considering how easily the parties morphed in the Victoria 2 AARs))
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It appears that a majority of the party has supported my accession to the leadership.
I am eternally grateful to all those who offered their backing to my candidacy. I assure my noble friends that I shall do all that is necessary to preserve our party and its followers and see their interests upheld in the Curia. I also offer my condolences to Senator Pavo Tsarthagion, and my gratitude for his role in founding this great movement and his many years of service in defending the rights of the common man against the entrenched bureaucracy.
- Caesennia Caprica
I am eternally grateful to all those who offered their backing to my candidacy. I assure my noble friends that I shall do all that is necessary to preserve our party and its followers and see their interests upheld in the Curia. I also offer my condolences to Senator Pavo Tsarthagion, and my gratitude for his role in founding this great movement and his many years of service in defending the rights of the common man against the entrenched bureaucracy.
- Caesennia Caprica
I vote yes on the Lex Caprica et Aureolia bill
I also firmly support Senator Caprica upon ascension to the leadership of the Mercators.
I also firmly support Senator Caprica upon ascension to the leadership of the Mercators.
((I'll just assume that Atlantis has a very efficient mailing system so I can still participate in the RP.))
Does defending the rights of the common man involve using his fellow Atlanteans for Slave Labor, hurting the common man through his unfair practices giving jobs that could go to citizens to slaves who only work to live and need for anything more? Is this defending the rights of the common man, or more Mercator deception?
((Nothing against you nvm just trying to get some good RP discussion going while we wait for the update.))
"Senator Pavo protecting the rights of the common man? Hah, is that what you call seeking the enslavement of those he saw as mere barbarians, but were in fact fellow citizens? You call that man a protector of such rights when through slavery, our citizens would also be suffering as there would be less jobs for them as the slaves would have them, and these slaves would not be receiving money, thus our economy would be suffering with slavery as there would be less money being circulated in the system via paying jobs and so forth, meaning our citizens would have had less money to spend on goods within our nation, damaging our nation's goods market as well. Even if the slaves were being paid, what would stop their masters from taking the money since effectively, under Pavo and slavery, they would have had no rights, and thus their masters could have taken their money if they had it as they saw fit. The system of slavery would just damage our economy as well as betray the rights of the Urollans, as well as our own citizens."-Auron Desimodius
The past few days of marching had been... tense, to say the least. Vulpis' most trusted men had been effective at keeping news from Atlantis from reaching the camps, and Graetius. But everyday, the Imperator was devising more and more flamboyant, and utterly foolish, plans to destroy the Urollans. Whereas his initial tactics were brilliant, bold, and everything you would expect of the great and powerful Dragon of Atlantis, his new strategies, at first proposed daily, were now arriving on an almost hourly basis, were so... grandiose, that not only would it be wholly impractical to implement them, but a single flaw, an err in positioning, could lead to a cascading failure in the entire endeavour. Graetius' manner, too, seemed to reflect this pomposity and unhinged strategic mindset... he demanded to be carried across the camp on a grand platform, rather than march or ride his stallion, at least according to the rumours; Vulpis doubted the veracity of the tales, but it was plan as day that the Imperator was losing his sanity, and his lust for power would not only undue this campaign, but Atlantis, herself, if he continued to act in such a manner...
I submit the following bill to the House, hoping to clearly define the powers of the bodies of the state, seeing as nobody has done this yet. I am fully open to any revisions and am willing to offer any explanations to my suggestions.
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Another rider from the camp of Vulpis Aureolis arrives into the halls of the Senate, proclaiming...
The Legate, Vulpis Oreolis, command-a o' the Reserve Legion, announces 'is support for this new piece o' legislation, proposed by Senat-a Smig-git!
He then turns his horse around and rides out of the Senate hall...
The Legate, Vulpis Oreolis, command-a o' the Reserve Legion, announces 'is support for this new piece o' legislation, proposed by Senat-a Smig-git!
He then turns his horse around and rides out of the Senate hall...
I do NOT support this new bill.
The powers of the Imperator are too great and his protection too much. Until this is modified I will not stand behind this bill.
The powers of the Imperator are too great and his protection too much. Until this is modified I will not stand behind this bill.
Is it to my bill you are referring, Senator? Could you suggest how you would improve it if so?
Sorry yes, I was rushed for time earlier, I had business to attend back at my manor and was forced away.
Esteemed Senator my main problem is the power of the Imperator is far too great for my liking. While I am pleased there is now a bill to limit the powers of the powers that be and I am happy to see members of this Curia taking the initiative.
Firstly, the power to close the congress at any time is open to abuse. Perhaps a majority will be needed to close the congress of say 66%. This would stop tyrants such as Graetius abusing this law. What would happen if Graetius was faced with a Mercator majority congress. He'd simply close the congress thus bypassing dealing with an opposition controlled congress.
My solution is far from perfect and is open to improvement.
Secondly the exemption of the Imperator and the Speaker from being prosecuted. What then if the Imperator murdered or raped a citizen. He would have the full powers of state to cover up his deed and many years to do so should he commit the crime in the middle of his term.
Should a crime be committed by a member of this Curia, no matter their position they must face the full force of Atlantean law.
Thirdly, an "attack" upon the Imperator is regarded as treason. The term "attack" is open to interpretation by those who make the law- i.e: the Imperator or Speaker. An attack can range from verbal abuse, an organised criticism of policy to the outright murder of the Imperator. We could see freedom of speech silenced in this house should this term remain vaguely defined.
I do not oppose the ideas behind this bill, rather I am completely for them and support my college for proposing this important legislation- I merely object to it in it's current form.
Senator Othollo
On the first point, I agree that it is open to abuse, but cannot think of a sound way to regulate this; we cannot ask the senate to ratify its closing, because they will oppose it. Anyway, seeing as the Imperator and the Senate are elected simultaneously it is very unlikely that they would come into conflict immediately, so it really is a clause that allows for disfunctional government to be reset restoring sound government. However, if anyone does have any ideas as to how we should control the dissolution of the senate, I would welcome it.
On your second point, if the Imperator murdered or raped they would still be accountable to congress who could initiate a prosecution; this clause is there to prevent their government from being intimidated by lawsuits during their time in office. Once they have finished their term, their immunity runs out and they are subject to the normal laws, including for any breaches during their term.
On your final point, I agree that that needs clarification; I was referring to a physical attack, not calling for any restraints on freedom of speech.
On your second point, if the Imperator murdered or raped they would still be accountable to congress who could initiate a prosecution; this clause is there to prevent their government from being intimidated by lawsuits during their time in office. Once they have finished their term, their immunity runs out and they are subject to the normal laws, including for any breaches during their term.
On your final point, I agree that that needs clarification; I was referring to a physical attack, not calling for any restraints on freedom of speech.
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