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You've never heard of people complaining about NK Mode?

Seriously? OUTSIDE OF NORTH KOREA MODE, I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PENALTY FOR GOING OVER YOUR DEMESNE LIMIT.

Happy?

The Dev fix will affect everyone who goes over their demesne limit, not just NK mode players. The penalty for going minorly over the demesne limit has been the same since the game was released - a tax penalty and a -10 modifier to other vassal opinions. It's been that way for 2 years, and OUTSIDE OF THE NORTH KOREA EXPLOIT (just to make sure you understand what I'm trying to say) there hasn't been an issue about it, or any calls to change it. And yet that's getting swept up in the same "fix" as the general NK nerf.

Yay PDX overreaction!
 
Really? I remember the tech changes, but what changed with the demesne holding penalty?

evil_events.txt. Events that now only happen when bankrupt (below 0), cut with 1.10, reintroduced with 2.0, not affected anyhow by your demesne limit anymore.
 
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Anyone going over their demesne limit will be impacted. Period.
Seriously. For the longest time there's been a 50% income penalty for going two over the limit, but you're going to say that's fine but a... Oh, I dunno, probably 20% or smaller levy cut is worth getting up in arms over?

Your character's domain limit matters. Setbacks are part of the game. Or perhaps we should patch out the ability for larger states to declare war on you if that's too much for you to handle.
 
Not true. Changed with 1.10.

Also the free creation of Barony level vassals since 1.10, while overall a welcome addition, has made NK Mode much more convenient.

Seriously? OUTSIDE OF NORTH KOREA MODE, I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PENALTY FOR GOING OVER YOUR DEMESNE LIMIT.

So outside of people complaining about the lack of penalty for going over your demesne limit, you haven't heard of people complaining about the lack of penalty for going over your demesne limit. I'm glad you brought this up, it's important information. This is going to cause me to rethink my position.

Yay PDX overreaction!

right now it's all in your head. You've stated that you believe that it's going to be 25% levy reduction for being one over your demesne limit. No one else believes Paradox would be this extreme.
 
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Unfortunately yes. It's like a car wreck, I can't look away.

If you can't avoid profanity, please don't post on the forum.

And now again you require someone to prove that NK Mode couldn't of happened, therefore it should be in the game. Same logic applies to extra terrestrials. Ok, I'll play your inane little game and say NK Mode could of happened. NK Mode is less likely to have happened than the Primates of the Congo organizing and invading Egypt. So it makes more sense to have Primate Invasion in the game than NK Mode.

Avoid Profanity, belittle other people instead? That your modus operandi? Also yay for slippery slope there?

Lets go over this one more time, maybe, just maybe, you will get what im saying. So far it seems you are intent on ignoring it, or using the usual slippery slope, strawman, name-calling, insulting and hyperbole.

NK Mode is not historical, it isnt even how North Korea works. Kim Jong-Whoever is the de facto dictator, but he has people under him that control the country, just because he is the de-facto leader does not mean he also does all the taxes, the budget and so forth. He is a Dictator, essentially think the President if ONLY he had the power to decide on anything, cutting out congress and so forth to use america as a example for a second. A Dictatorship is not the same as "control everything by yourself". Case in point, Nazi Germany and Iraq under Hussein.

So the term "NK Mode" is already wrong by its definition. So the concept of thought is, if you hold everything yourself as a Ruler in CK2, you still technically need your council, you still have essentially people in those castles, cities and bishoprics that technically you control from a mechanical point. The underlying system is still the same even once you essentially consolidate all the power to one guy, "NK Mode" removes essentially overseers, because that is what vassals are, they are put in charge of land to administer to it IN YOUR NAME, but they also have their own court so to speak which basicly runs things, its called delegation of power, its a proven concept. So the king has dukes, the dukes have counts, the counts have barons and the barons? They have seneshals and similar who actually run their stuff, and those seneshals also have people under them, but for the sake of the game, only as far down as barons are shown. So if you cut out dukes, counts and barons, the king controls basicly everyone who would be below the barons normally in the power structure, hence why it makes logical sense to assume this is still the case, the king simply did not assign overseers but rather consolidated all the land to himself. The downside of this is that you get less taxes because the system is much less efficient, you have to, behind the scenes as it were, deal with more people and there is much more abuse and corruption as a result because it is difficult to keep track of things as one guy.

If you see everything only in game mechanics, well yes it doesnt make sense, but if you then think that barons, burghers and bishops are the only people who see after baronies, cities and bishoprics without any support then you are wrong from a logistical standpoint already. The game can only show so much of the power structure, if there was a way to simulate essentially what happens if you hold all the titles and had to deal with basicly powerless masses directly, rather than a few dukes and counts, this argument of yours wouldnt work. It still doesnt because you just equated everything to ET. Which lets be honest, makes no sense to any argument, its just silly.

So with that said, lets go look at the fix, you get less taxes the more you go over the limit. You also get less levies up to a point, you dont go into negative levies or no levies, probably up to a certain amount like how the income works, you know a 90% decrease maximum. What this fix has now done, as per my argument up there, it has made NK Mode actually more historically accurate in the sense that you become less capable of ruling your entire realm because you cut out several people, i.e. barons, counts and dukes. As such, you take penalties for actually doing it, well more penalties since the tax penalty was already there to begin with. So what has is achieved? NK Mode can still be done, it is simply more logically sound than before, you become less capable of forming a army because you have to deal with essentially everything yourself, or rather you have to deal with all those seneshals and kitchen staff and everything, since the whole bureacracy isnt really working after all, so again..its hard to issue orders, keep track of things etc.

Let me repeat this for you, NK Mode has been made more logically, logistically and historically accurate BY the fix. It hasnt been nerfed, it hasnt been fixed, it isnt going away. If you want people to not play NK Mode you have to look at why people use it, after all if you simply wanted to cheat you already could, so the issue is somewhere else. Vassal Management, more interactions with them, a better mechanic to what they do and when, just because they dont love you unconditionally doesnt mean they would want to depose you so we need more factions, more plots for them to do. Why cant the AI vassals have factions to, i dunno, strengthen the realm? Which could give you events that increase or decrease their relationship to you? If all you do is try to nerf something, you ignore the root-cause of what might make people abuse mechanics. After all there is a difference between using mechanics to your advantage and abusing them until the game essentially breaks.

Thats why this "fix" makes no sense, its why it shouldnt happen. What paradox should have done is say "we're looking at it" and then actually look at how they can improve on the game, on the feudalistic systems to make it more fun and rewarding to play the game correctly before they close the loophole that allowed NK Mode or similar. Because as it stands, it can still be done.
 
Avoid Profanity, belittle other people instead? That your modus operandi? Also yay for slippery slope there?

If you want to attach your self worth to the idea that NK Mode is something other than an unintended exploit, when the developers have stated it's an unintended exploit, that is kind of...

Lets go over this one more time, maybe, just maybe, you will get what im saying. So far it seems you are intent on ignoring it, or using the usual slippery slope, strawman, name-calling, insulting and hyperbole.

I'll address you point for point again. I'm not going to quote your entire post because you've wasted so many words. Here we go.

NK Mode is not historical, it isnt even how North Korea works.

Wait a second. Reading ahead. You need this many sentences to to prove this? Please take PrinceCola as a fine example of brevity.

Why do people call it North Korea mode...do one man own everything in North Korea? That's not possible. I mean, he can control the people who control it, but i doubt he control every area personally.

Indeed. Given that it's a only a game designed to simulate history, what NK Mode represents is disconnected from reality. NK Mode is probably how Kim Jong Un wishes things could work.

No one should have to read you write if it's irrelevant so I'm going to skip ahead until we get to the heart of what we disagree on.

If you see everything only in game mechanics, well yes it doesnt make sense, but if you then think that barons, burghers and bishops are the only people who see after baronies, cities and bishoprics without any support then you are wrong from a logistical standpoint already. The game can only show so much of the power structure, if there was a way to simulate essentially what happens if you hold all the titles and had to deal with basicly powerless masses directly, rather than a few dukes and counts, this argument of yours wouldnt work. It still doesnt because you just equated everything to ET. Which lets be honest, makes no sense to any argument, its just silly.

Here we go. So you're taking for granted that whoever or whatever bureaucracy you imagine that you delegated power to is running your county, bishopric, city, barony is powerless. Incapable of ambition or disloyalty no matter what. But until the fix still capable of raising full levies. It's also invisible (because it isn't there). Why would you assume this bureaucracy exists? Because it's convenient. And this is logical? Absolutely not unless your goal is to bypass having to delegate authority with an exploit. The game can only show so much of the power structure so with NK Mode you just cut it out and imagine a different and overpowered alternative is there. This is called deluding yourself.

So with that said, lets go look at the fix, you get less taxes the more you go over the limit. You also get less levies up to a point, you dont go into negative levies or no levies, probably up to a certain amount like how the income works, you know a 90% decrease maximum.

Like Kumicho you're assuming you know what the fix will be. This is all we know about the degree to which levies will be nerfed.

you will be a bankrupt France with only 400 troops while the strong HRE will be raising a lot more troops than that.

Good luck finding the point where your kingdom is too weak to defend itself with NK Mode. Or you could not use it to begin with.

What this fix has now done, as per my argument up there, it has made NK Mode actually more historically accurate in the sense that you become less capable of ruling your entire realm because you cut out several people, i.e. barons, counts and dukes. As such, you take penalties for actually doing it, well more penalties since the tax penalty was already there to begin with. So what has is achieved? NK Mode can still be done, it is simply more logically sound than before, you become less capable of forming a army because you have to deal with essentially everything yourself, or rather you have to deal with all those seneshals and kitchen staff and everything, since the whole bureacracy isnt really working after all, so again..its hard to issue orders, keep track of things etc.

Are you saying the fix is a good thing? I'm proud I convinced you. I'm hoping it so realistically simulates NK Mode that it's impossible to defend your realm without delegating authority unless you're a very small realm.

Let me repeat this for you, NK Mode has been made more logically, logistically and historically accurate BY the fix. It hasnt been nerfed, it hasnt been fixed, it isnt going away.

People used NK Mode because it was vastly overpowered. When it is fixed, if it becomes unattractive people won't use it. I think you overestimate how much people hate vassals in general. If dealing with vassals and the challenges that come with them makes you more powerful in the game, the point of NK Mode is gone for most people.

If you want people to not play NK Mode you have to look at why people use it...

To summarize the rest of your post, you make the dubious claim that people like NK Mode not because it's extremely easy and unchallenging but because vassals suck, they're boring and they make the game too hard. This is your opinion about vassals. If you want Paradox to improve them, that's fine and unrelated. NK Mode shouldn't replace vassals because you don't like them.

Thats why this "fix" makes no sense, its why it shouldnt happen. What paradox should have done is say "we're looking at it" and then actually look at how they can improve on the game, on the feudalistic systems to make it more fun and rewarding to play the game correctly before they close the loophole that allowed NK Mode or similar. Because as it stands, it can still be done.

I take the opinion that fixing NK Mode is one less bug to worry about, and an indication that the developers are still improving the game. I'm just a glass half full kind of person.
 
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If you want to attach your self worth to the idea that NK Mode is something other than an unintended exploit, when the developers have stated it's an unintended exploit, that is kind of...

Self Worth attached to a mechanic? Are you really trying to insinuate that? You belittle people by using the aforementioned methods in your posts, this has nothing to do with the fix but rather by proponents of said fix, such as yourself. There is a difference.

I'll address you point for point again. I'm not going to quote your entire post because you've wasted so many words. Here we go.

Wait a second. Reading ahead. You need this many sentences to to prove this? Please take PrinceCola as a fine example of brevity.

Wasted words because i actually explain in detail where my problem with the fix lie, alright. A more indepth explanation on how the system works because someone shortened it is a waste? Right, go ahead.

No one should have to read most of what you write so I'm going to skip ahead until we get to the heart of what we disagree on.

Please do not start telling people what they can and can not read. Just because you choose to ignore points doesnt mean everyone else has to, though going by the behaviour of certain people in this thread, it seems par for the course.

Here we go. So you're taking for granted that whoever or whatever bureaucracy you delegated power to is running your county, bishopric, city, barony is powerless. Incapable of ambition or disloyalty no matter what. But still capable of raising full levies. Why would you assume this to be the case? Because it's convenient. And this is logical? Absolutely not unless your goal is to bypass having to delegate authority with an exploit. The game can only show so much of the power structure so with NK Mode you just cut it out and imagine a different and overpowered alternative is there. This is called deluding yourself.

They are not powerless because YOU hold the power. Thats the whole point isnt it? They all answer to you at the end of the day, which is precisely why you cut out the rest, the problem is the system cant simulate the "faceless masses" to have opinions and such, which is the limitation of the game. Again if it could simulate this, this thread would not exist, nor would you have anything to argue with, what little there seems to be. Also "deluding yourself" because i actually assume there is a powerstructure below barons that answer to you even if the game doesnt, or cant represent them properly. What was that about "lets not insult people" again?

Like Kumicho you're assuming you know what the fix will be. This is all we know about the degree to which levies will be nerfed.

Assuming is a bad thing? Yet you are saying you KNOW, which intellectually speaking, is worse. Reminds me of when someone pointed out a argument with creationists, but i cant remember if that was you or not, though it might have been. There will not be a hard cap, that much has been stated. There will be no point where you have no levies at all. Going by pre-existing systems it is therefore likely to assume that the levy reduction will work the same way, therefore the higher you go over the limit, the less levies you get, rather than a blanket amount for simply being over the limit.

Good luck finding the point where your kingdom is too weak to defend itself with NK Mode. Or you could not use it to begin with.

What..are...thats an oxymoron right there. Why would i have to find out where the kingdom is too weak to defend itself? I'd simply find at which point the levy reduction is tolerable to not be too weak. And again, if you hold 400 counties, which give you, for the sake of an example 200 troops each, you get 40000 Troops. If the nerf reduces them this far. Therefore being really big negates the reduction again. Because a large percentage of alot of troops is still a higher percentage. 10% of 200 is less than 10% of 400, basic math there.

Are you saying the fix is a good thing? I'm proud I convinced you. I'm hoping it so realistically simulates NK Mode that it's impossible to defend your realm without delegating authority unless you're a very small realm.

You have not convinced me of anything. I have never stated that NK Mode is better, or that the fix in any way affects me beyond that it is a pointless fix because those it would affect can still mod the game, can still cheat. Therefore you have asked the devs to fix something that can equally be unfixed within a few hours. Rather than taking time to please you people, Paradox should have focused its efforts into making the rest of the game better, i.e. better vassal mechanics and NK Mode would solve itself over time even without a fix being needed. Also, again, its a question of math. You will never become entirely defenseless, if you manage to grow big enough you can rival the HRE or ERE easily. The difference is that you simply have to grow big first with vassals, then get rid of them once you have a large enough size.

People used NK Mode because it was vastly overpowered. When it is fixed, if it becomes unattractive people won't use it. I think you overestimate how much people hate vassals in general. If dealing with vassals and the challenges that come with them makes you more powerful in the game, the point of NK Mode is gone for most people.

You assume to know things based on what? Has any NK Mode Player actually stated this to be the case? Or did they do it because playing the game properly was boring to them, or if you want to be more precise there, unneeded? If you can play without vassals, why would you want vassals? If vassals are the difficulty, why should you be unable to eliminate this difficulty if you so choose? If Vassals are irritating, why take away the option to get rid of them, penalty or not? Why not instead make vassals better, make dealing with them more dynamic and engaging? Make the game actually fun rather than penalizing people who dont play the game your way, especially if the cause of the lack of fun was caused by another "fix" you created to begin with. You cant magically unbreak something else by breaking another thing.

To summarize the rest of your post, you make the dubious claim that people like NK Mode not because it's extremely easy and unchallenging but because vassals suck, they're boring and they make the game too hard. This is your opinion about vassals. If you want Paradox to improve them, that's fine and unrelated. NK Mode shouldn't replace vassals because you don't like them.

I make no claims to know why people do certain things, i can only apply my point of view and guess as to their motivations. I am doubtful that NK Mode became popular because people wanted to cheat or something like that. Also my opinion about vassals is my opinion and Paradox should improve them, which is relevant to the discussion because it just might fix NK Mode without any nerf being needed to begin with. Also, vassals suck, that is a fact. That is not an opinion, thats fact. If you played the game for any length of time you would see this, that does not imply vassals suck as such, but the mechanics for them do, they are unengaging, boring and pointless. Improving upon them would do more to fixing NK Mode or similar "exploits" than simply putting a penalty in place.

I take the opinion that fixing NK Mode is one less bug to worry about, and an indication that the developers are still improving the game. I'm just a glass half full kind of person.

Finally, that may be your opinion. But your opinion is not fact, it is not law. While NK Mode can be fixed and should be eventually, the fact that feudalism is still not fun, not engaging and usually a hassle rather than anything else means that similar exploits will come up again because of this. If vassals and dealing with them as such was improved such "exploits" would be minor and obscure and fixing them would not require such a large spectacle as you people made it into. Case in point, NK Mode was always possible, before the 2.0 levy nerf nobody used it. Why? Because there was no need to, so perhaps that change caused it, so looking at a better implementation of said levy rebalance might also be a good option.

And I'm just a "who drank half of my drink" kind of person, whats your point again?
 
the problem is the system cant simulate the "faceless masses" to have opinions and such, which is the limitation of the game. Again if it could simulate this, this thread would not exist, nor would you have anything to argue with, what little there seems to be. Also "deluding yourself" because i actually assume there is a powerstructure below barons that answer to you even if the game doesnt, or cant represent them properly. What was that about "lets not insult people" again?

You imagine that a city or barony without a leader is run by faceless masses who love you. Without fail. Always. Because you getting full levies from it is the easiest way for you to play the game. I imagine a city or barony without a leader is a city or barony without a leader. And that I can get full levies when holding every demesne in the world is a developer oversight.

Self Worth attached to a mechanic? Are you really trying to insinuate that?

The only way I can understand you feeling insulted by me concluding that you're deluded by thinking NK Mode is accurately represents how the developers wanted to simulate history is if your self-worth is in invested in NK Mode being proven legitimate. I would not recommend this.

I can say then and here now that I know what Groogy said

The original design of the game is that going over the demesne limit is hurtful for you, the problem before was that it was never enough to actually discourage it. Though calling it a nerf is wrong as you are basically not playing something that was intended to be viable from the very start.

The takeaway I would hope you have is that I'm not insulting your character or intelligence because I think you're very misguided about the way the game is intended to work. I think you'll be more at peace with the continued development of the game if you stop looking for things in NK Mode that aren't there.
 
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Would you all please calm down and discuss this civilly? I am going to compile a list of pros and cons for this fix

Pros-
- Makes NK mode much harder to take over the world with
- Discourages going over the demesne limit (you are supposed to stay at or below)
- Makes NK mode empires much more easy to be defeated.

Cons-
- Might not be going far enough to fix NK mode without a rework of the imprisonment + banishment aspect of it.
- Levy nerf numbers unknown. Could be huge, could be small.


If anyone could suggest some pros and cons to me without vomiting on the other side of the argument, that would be great.
 
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If anyone could suggest some pros and cons to me without vomiting on the other side of the argument, that would be great.

In the spirit of togetherness I'll put forward a Con.

The levy nerf on being over your slightly demesne limit might be too harsh. Since we don't know what it will be, we'll have to wait and see.
 
You imagine that a city or barony without a leader is run by faceless masses who love you. Without fail. Always. Because you getting full levies from it is the easiest way for you to play the game. I imagine a city or barony without a leader is a city or barony without a leader. And that I can get full levies when holding every demesne in the world is a developer oversight.

The only way I can understand you feeling insulted by me concluding that you're deluded by thinking NK Mode is accurately represents how the developers wanted to simulate history is if your self-worth is in invested in NK Mode being proven legitimate. I would not recommend this.

I can say then and here now that I know what Groogy said

The takeaway I would hope you have is that I'm not insulting your character or intelligence because I think you're very misguided about the way the game is intended to work. I think you'll be more at peace with the continued development of the game if you stop looking for things in NK Mode that aren't there.

It isnt run by the faceless masses, they arent peasants, but rather every person of importance in a given city or village, such has the jailor, marshal and so forth. Essentially there is a powerstructure beneath what is essentially the mayor of a town, the same is true for a barony, the baron has people under him which essentially have very specific jobs and he delegates responsibilities to them. These people are not represented in the game because, if they were, you'd have millions of characters and the game would be slow and unwieldy. So they dont "love you" or "hate you" because, as far as the mechanics are concerned they do not exist, but in this timeperiod these people, these "jobs" did exist. However even if they hated you, lets assume they exist, they are so far down the totempole that they couldnt do anything even if they had wanted to, they have literally no real power, even barons dont, counts and dukes and kings do, because they have enough political clout and underlings to make things happen, barons dont, and people under them even less so. I am not saying that they should give you full levies, or full taxes, hence the fix makes it more logically sound because now there is a downside for having ineffective delegation, a single king can not deal with all these people that realistically a baron would deal with, and the count would deal with all the barons and so forth up the chain, ergo you lose taxes because these, "unseen people" pocket some of it, or dont relay your orders right and so forth, hence penalty to tax income and levy size.

No the fact you are telling me i am deluded because i actually consider historical relevance and actual facts to the discussion is insulting. This has nothing to do with the mode of gameplay. I am outlining as to how this would work, if the game could properly represent it or rather how it would have worked in reality if something like this had ever happened. And the concept can be seen in action already, if you dont have dukes, you have to deal with alot of counts, if you dont have dukes or counts, you have to deal with all the barons, so if these "lesser stations" had people in them, without barons you'd be dealing with them. It is also insulting in a backhanded manner of saying i am misguided for actually thinking logically and critically about what NK Mode would be like IF it ever happened, but that does NOT imply that i approve of it, nor that i propose we should keep it.

My issue this whole time is that it is a lesser problem and if other issues were fixed, then NK Mode would go away without needing a fix for that single issue specifically because now that its got nerfed, should they nerf counts-only mode next? And if thats nerfed the next big exploit people find? If you only fix the resulting problems instead of tackling the root issue you are playing catch-up and eventually everything will be stripped and restricted unless feudalism as it is is fixed because until it is actually fun, engaging and challenging at once, rather than boring, pointless and irritating as it is now most of the time, then people will continue to exploit.
 
I agree with you A D
My problem with the whole thing is NKM was a personal choice.
Ok say they want to nerf something they never intended to be possible.
I am fine with that.
But if you look at all the bugs, problems with Fued and Decad, this had to be like #100 wayyyy down the list.
It just sucks that instead of fixing the root of the problem (Which btw would have stopped 99.9% of NKM players) they came into my house and told me how I was allowed to play a game I have spent almost $200 on.
 
No the fact you are telling me i am deluded because i actually consider historical relevance and actual facts to the discussion is insulting.

You are delusional. Nothing about your post is historical or based on facts. You are simply imagining a 9th Century bureaucracy that could span an entire continent that is completely passive and let's you do whatever you want. Unless there are counts in your realm, somehow that makes it fall apart. Everyone knows that in history if you had less power than a count, you were incapable of organizing.

And Paradox discovered this incredibly new form of Medieval governance by accident, because they never intended people to play this way :rofl:

You're insulting yourself by conjuring up such fantasies to justify an exploit and asserting that it could of happened in history.
 
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You are delusional. Nothing about your post is historical or based on facts. You are simply imagining a 9th Century bureaucracy that could span an entire continent that is completely passive and let's you do whatever you want. Unless there are counts in your realm, somehow that makes it fall apart. Everyone knows that in history if you had less power than a count, you were incapable of organizing.

And Paradox discovered this incredibly new form of Medieval governance by accident, because they never intended people to play this way :rofl:

You're insulting yourself by conjuring up such fantasies to justify an exploit and asserting that it could of happened in history.

Okay, im done. Please pick up a history book. Clearly you have no idea how feudal dynamics actually worked in the timeframe you attempt to convice people are actually correct. Count is not the lowest station. Baron isnt either, each Count had Barons under him, these Barons had a form of proto-local government thing going where they actually had specific jobs for specific people and they did that job. Or are you telling me a single mayor could run a whole town? A single bishop could run a whole church? But you are calling me delusional? Seriously?
 
Okay, im done. Please pick up a history book. Clearly you have no idea how feudal dynamics actually worked in the timeframe you attempt to convice people are actually correct. Count is not the lowest station. Baron isnt either, each Count had Barons under him, these Barons had a form of proto-local government thing going where they actually had specific jobs for specific people and they did that job. Or are you telling me a single mayor could run a whole town? A single bishop could run a whole church? But you are calling me delusional? Seriously?

Absolutely you're delusional. You think that NK Mode is a workable model of government. It's laughable to think that just by holding every count and baron's title you think that a ruler could do everything that count or baron could do.

Do you not understand NK Mode? Let me explain it to you, it's not historical, it's only possible due to a loophole in rules about how vassals rebel. Counts are the lowest ranking vassal in CK2 that can rebel. In NK Mode, which you claim is logical, you need to create/imprison/banish barony level titles constantly in order to maintain income. If the barons could rebel, they would, but due to the game mechanics they can't.

In history Barons and members of the Bourgeois often organized for their mutual benefit. If NK Mode were attempted in reality, all over the world knights and theigns would be saying to each other, "Hey this fool King from the other side of Europe thinks he can run the world, but he's never around and he doesn't share power. He's another culture and another religion. And there's literally no one within 1000 miles who represents his power to keep us in check. We should make our own local King."

The Magna Carta in 1215 was imposed on King John by a group of mostly Barons, Mayors and Abbots. They didn't and wouldn't passively accept imprisonment and banishment, one by one, without protest as you think they should.

Please pick up a history book.

For me this is the saddest part of the post. In every book of history chronicling history from 2014 to the dawn of man, you see that humans have out of necessity had to delegate power and also faced upheaval from those beneath them in the structure of power who want to replace them as ruler. No wonder A-D hates vassals, he doesn't understand human ambition or motivation.
 
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The Magna Carta in 1215 was imposed on King John by a group of mostly Barons, Mayors and Abbots. They didn't and wouldn't passively accept imprisonment and banishment, one by one, without protest as you think they should.

How is Paradox's proposed nerf to going over the demesne limit going to address the ai "passively accept imprisonment and banishment, one by one, without protest"? Frolix42 Besides the personal insults, memes and telling other posters what it is they think and are saying, what point are you actually trying to argue? I have not seen anyone say that NK mode is fine and should stay as it is.

A-D made the very good point: "What paradox should have done is say "we're looking at it" and then actually look at how they can improve on the game, on the feudalistic systems to make it more fun and rewarding to play the game correctly before they close the loophole that allowed NK Mode or similar. Because as it stands, it can still be done."

Feudalism is not being made deeper or more interesting. PI have not said they are addressing the levies they screwed up (in 2.01?) and the "imprisonment and banishment" you mentioned are not being overhauled. What PI have said is:

There has been some big issues with what people have dubbed "North Korea Mode", making the game way too easy to play and removing the entire feudal point of the game. So we have made playing this way a lot less rewarding by reducing the amount of levies and income they actually get from doing this. It is of course still completely possible to play like this if you still want to, but you will be a bankrupt France with only 400 troops while the strong HRE will be raising a lot more troops than that. Small counts and dukes who go over their demense limit just a little bit will be a bit penalized but not to the same degree.

This approach of PIs is most likely too much (they will probably overnerf and throw another element of the game out of whack) and/or not enough as its not addressing the root cause of NK mode only one of the symptoms of CK2's inadequate feudal game mechanic.

Besides even further boring the other poor readers of this thread with several posts telling me what an awful human being I am or what it is you think I am thinking and saying or some other circular tangent. Admitedly A-D is setting him/herself as an easy target with the fairly silly "NK is legit historically" but ignoreing that, can you succintly state what it is you are positing? That PIs proposed change is enough and we shouldnt question them or raise concerns?
 
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Absolutely you're delusional. You think that NK Mode is a workable model of government. It's laughable to think that just by holding every count and baron's title you think that a ruler could do everything that count or baron could do.

Do you not understand NK Mode? Let me explain it to you, it's not historical, it's only possible due to a loophole in rules about how vassals rebel. Counts are the lowest ranking vassal in CK2 that can rebel. In NK Mode, which you claim is logical, you need to create/imprison/banish barony level titles constantly in order to maintain income. If the barons could rebel, they would, but due to the game mechanics they can't.

In history Barons and members of the Bourgeois often organized for their mutual benefit. If NK Mode were attempted in reality, all over the world knights and theigns would be saying to each other, "Hey this fool King from the other side of Europe thinks he can run the world, but he's never around and he doesn't share power. He's another culture and another religion. And there's literally no one within 1000 miles who represents his power to keep us in check. We should make our own local King."

The Magna Carta in 1215 was imposed on King John by a group of mostly Barons, Mayors and Abbots. They didn't and wouldn't passively accept imprisonment and banishment, one by one, without protest as you think they should.



For me this is the saddest part of the post. In every book of history chronicling history from 2014 to the dawn of man, you see that humans have out of necessity had to delegate power and also faced upheaval from those beneath them in the structure of power who want to replace them as ruler. No wonder A-D hates vassals, he doesn't understand human ambition or motivation.

Okay, first i thought you might have legitimate points, then i figured you went to trolling, now im actually considering you are really just dense. NK Mode is a workable model of government. You named it after NORTH KOREA, which last i checked, actually exists. Secondly, and please for the love of god read properly this time, if you remove barons, counts, dukes and kings that are represented vassals, what are you left with? The people that the baron would have HISTORICALLY as vassals under him, people without actual power who help run things. Look at all the minor titles you can give people, example Seneshal, these are based entirely around these offices that ARE beneath a Baron in rank. These people do not hold land, but they help administer it without being in a overseer position.

So, that said, if you have all these people which help run things but arent barons, you control them. The game does not represent them because otherwise you would have MILLIONS of characters, not just a couple 100.000, no actually millions. Im not even going over the rest of your rant because clearly you dont understand what im actually saying, probably because you simply refuse to actually check up on things.

And clearly, you dont read history books or you would know that there were titles beneath a baron, just because they didnt hold land per se does not mean they didnt exist. Thats where BARONS delegate power to, therefore IF we include them in the game? Your entire argument falls flat because you have nothing to argue with. You simply dont. You keep repeating the same pointless, insane mantra of how i am saying something that im not. So again, pick up a damn history book and learn about things before you try to impose your biased, false view onto me.
 
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