North Korea Mode

[frolix42]

Are you telling me that you've NEVER gone over your demesne limit? Ever? Because in every game I've played I've gone over at some point. Going from a high stewardship married man to an unmarried infant is an almost immediate way for that to happen. And if you have ever gone over your limit, you'll be affected by the "fix".

Maybe he and I have minimal faith that Paradox won't nerf your levies by 25% if you are only 1 holding over your limit like you believe will happen.

If I imprison / banish and create new vassals, I'm not playing "NKM".

Yes...you are. If you were not there would be no exploit. NK Mode would be impossible to maintain.

But that's ok, just go back to the insults and childish name-calling, I'm sure that it makes you feel better...

What I do care about is people whining on here that other people might be playing the game the way they don't want them to, and that PDX should "fix" the game for them.

So your desire for a "buff to feudalism" isn't whining, but our wish to see the game fixed is whining. You're living in a glass house when you post on a forum.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

Are you telling me that you've NEVER gone over your demesne limit? Ever? Because in every game I've played I've gone over at some point. Going from a high stewardship married man to an unmarried infant is an almost immediate way for that to happen. And if you have ever gone over your limit, you'll be affected by the "fix".

Of course I have. It is just another dialemma to deal with. - Should I be weak now and strong later? Or. Should I be strong now and not as strong as I could have been later?

It is going to affect you if you are exploiting its relative looseness now. If demecne limit - as a gameplay mechanic itself - is going to exist, it should damn well have actual mechanics backing it up.

But that's ok, just go back to the insults and childish name-calling, I'm sure that it makes you feel better...

Wasn't that the reason this thread still exists??? Damn, I need to rethink my life...

 

[daemonofdecay]

What I do care about is people whining on here that other people might be playing the game the way they don't want them to, and that PDX should "fix" the game for them. Why should you care how I play the game? If I play as normal but have 4 holdings over my demesne limit and utilize in-game features like feasts, my chancellor, my spymaster, etc to either keep my vassals happy or discourage them from factionalism, why should you care? Why should you be demanding that my way of playing isn't the "right" way, or the way that the game was "intended" to be?

Normally I would agree with you (I have no problem with games having cheat codes and such, after all), but this argument becomes invalid when you factor in multiplayer, because then your gameplay style does impact other players.

Not to mention they are fixing an exploit, which is something developers work on all the time. Exploits, bugs, unforeseen problems... these are what patches are supposed to fix. NKM was never meant to be a viable strategy. It turns out that many players think it is, which means there is a problem. Thus, they recognize that they need to increase the negative modifiers already present to suitably dissuade players from considering NKM to be viable.

Imagine in Hearts of Iron if they had unintentionally given German cavalry ridiculously powerful stats, allowing for all cavalry armies to destroy armored divisions and conquer nations with ease, but only realized long after the game was released. This is not historical, doesn't make sense from a game-play perspective, doesn't fit the setting and the goals of the game, and is something they would want to fix. Who here would stand up to defend this exploit? Would anyone claim those against Nothing but Kavallerie Mode (NbKM) were just trying to spoil the game for those who enjoy their horse-based Wehrmacht? After all, you don't have to use cavalry in your games, and we all know the AI would never take advantage of the NbKM, so where is the harm, hmm? Surely if you are against fixing NKM, you would be against any such alterations to the game.

Indeed, why fix any bug players use to their own advantage, even when it goes against the very nature of the game they sought to create? What happens if pressing 'g' on the keyboard gave you free gold everytime. You don't have to use the G Key Mod (GKM), but why stop other players who enjoy using that exploit in the game? How dare the developers nerf the G-key so it doesn't give any gold at all! If you don't want to get free gold, just don't press the key. Problem solved.

 

[Kumicho]

Maybe he and I have minimal faith that Paradox wouldn't nerf your levies by 25% if you are only 1 holding over your limit.

I was responding to someone who claimed that only people playing NKM were going to be affected. In that he's wrong, because PDX has come out and admitted that anyone going over their limit at all will be affected. You might have faith that it's not going to be drastic, but that's not the same as saying that it's not going to affect everyone, because it will.

So your desire for a "buff to feudalism" isn't whining, but our wish to see the game fixed is whining. You're living in a glass house when you post on a forum.

Requests to improve the game that I'm playing = not whining.
Demanding changes to the game that OTHER people are playing = whining.

I'll ask again, why should you care how other people play the game? If you don't approve of a certain way of play, don't play that way. I certainly have a ton of house rules that I usually play with like not vassalizing the Pope, but I'm not on here demanding that PDX "fix" the exploit that gives you hundreds of gold every month while being able to excommunicate anyone you want. It's because I really don't care how you play, and whether you vassalize the Pope or not. But listening to people on here demanding that not only should PDX fix an obvious exploit, but that it should affect everyone who ever goes over their limit is, well, whining.

And yes, it's exactly the same as the Prince-Archbishopric "fix" from before. A little-known exploit used by a handful of people get's "fixed" by a hard cap that affects far more people than were ever using the exploit in the first place.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

Requests to improve the game that I'm playing = not whining.
Demanding changes to the game that OTHER people are playing = whining.

 

[frolix42]

I also wouldn't be affected by the new patch, which supposedly "fixes" NKM.

I love the speed of your self-contradiction where you claim that the NK Mode fix is going to destroy your ability to raise levies above your demesne limit, and then immediately state that it will not prevent you from taking advantage of going above your demesne limit.

The purpose of the fix is that it forces you to create vassals if you are above your demesne limit in order to avoid a levy penalty. You can hold all of the counties titles in your kingdom, and you will still apparently be able to imprison/banish baronies as long as you do so. But now this is viable only until you hold so many counties that the levy nerf makes it a necessity to give away a county to a vassal. Now you're creating counts who will become very angry with you when you imprison/banish. From this point forward, the more counties you take, the more your increasingly numerous counts will loathe you because your a tyrant.

These counts are going to form factions and try to overthrow you regularly if you continue to be above your demesne limit and imprison/banish baronies for money.

I think it's clever because it's still allows those who are obsessed with playing without vassals access to this play-style, but encourages them to abandon it.

 

[daemonofdecay]

I was responding to someone who claimed that only people playing NKM were going to be affected. In that he's wrong, because PDX has come out and admitted that anyone going over their limit at all will be affected. You might have faith that it's not going to be drastic, but that's not the same as saying that it's not going to affect everyone, because it will.

If I go over the point at which I cannot effectively maintain control over my lands, then I should suffer a penalty. The more I go over this limit, the larger the penalty.

Why is this a problem?

 

[Kumicho]

Normally I would agree with you (I have no problem with games having cheat codes and such, after all), but this argument becomes invalid when you factor in multiplayer, because then your gameplay style does impact other players.

Not to mention they are fixing an exploit, which is something developers work on all the time. Exploits, bugs, unforeseen problems... these are what patches are supposed to fix. NKM was never meant to be a viable strategy. It turns out that many players think it is, which means there is a problem. Thus, they recognize that they need to increase the negative modifiers already present to suitably dissuade players from considering NKM to be viable.

Imagine in Hearts of Iron if they had unintentionally given German cavalry ridiculously powerful stats, allowing for all cavalry armies to destroy armored divisions and conquer nations with ease, but only realized long after the game was released. This is not historical, doesn't make sense from a game-play perspective, doesn't fit the setting and the goals of the game, and is something they would want to fix. Who here would stand up to defend this exploit? Would anyone claim those against Nothing but Kavallerie Mode (NbKM) were just trying to spoil the game for those who enjoy their horse-based Wehrmacht? After all, you don't have to use cavalry in your games, and we all know the AI would never take advantage of the NbKM, so where is the harm, hmm? Surely if you are against fixing NKM, you would be against any such alterations to the game.

Indeed, why fix any bug players use to their own advantage, even when it goes against the very nature of the game they sought to create? What happens if pressing 'g' on the keyboard gave you free gold everytime. You don't have to use the G Key Mod (GKM), but why stop other players who enjoy using that exploit in the game? How dare the developers nerf the G-key so it doesn't give any gold at all! If you don't want to get free gold, just don't press the key. Problem solved.

Honestly, I hadn't thought that NKM was a problem in multiplayer, but then again I've never played it. Every multiplayer game that I've seen had set house rules that reached far beyond "no NKM", and usually included things like assassinations, where you could raid, etc.

To be fair, I'm annoyed for a couple reasons:

1) The "fix" is going to hit everyone, including those not playing NKM. If it was something like "any time you're 10 over the limit you get zero demesne troops" I'd be fine with it, but it's not. It's going to affect anyone going the slightest bit over their demesne, which wasn't the original intention for the "fix". It was supposed to nerf NKM, *not* rebalance gameplay...
2) Most people shouldn't care about how others play the game. If I'm going to try a ridiculously hard start like a Karen vassal and want to go over my demesne limit to make it even remotely playable, why should people on here be telling me that I'm playing the game "wrong"? The game is set up to be as hard or as easy as you want it. If you want easy, there's the assassination button. Or start a the Emperor for the ERE/HRE. If you want ridiculously hard, try Canaries or Norrland in 1066. Or play by house rules that prohibit things like matrilinear marriages. The beauty of the game is that you tailor it to be whatever YOU want, and however YOU want to play. PDX can do whatever they want with the game, it's their game. What's annoying are the people on here claiming that other people are playing the game wrong, or that the "fix" SHOULD be all-encompassing and hit everyone because that's the way they want everyone else to play...


And there is an exploit that gives you free gold, it's the command prompt.

 

[frolix42]

I'll take the bait, even if it's low quality.

Requests to improve the game that I'm playing = not whining.
Demanding changes to the game that OTHER people are playing = whining.

So I'm not going to be effected if the game is changed to be the way you want it?

Breathtaking. Did you know that there is more than one copy of CK2 in existence?

 

[Shivah]

Where are you pulling those assertions that NKmode nerf(or call it demecne limti buff) is going to affect everyone else?

From past "fixes" to other features perhaps? In this game and EU4 it's par for the course. It's called pattern recognition, not paranoia or cynicism. Paranoia would be thinking everyone concerned about unintended consequences must really be using NKM.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

From past "fixes" to other features perhaps? In this game and EU4 it's par for the course. It's called pattern recognition, not paranoia or cynicism. Paranoia would be thinking everyone concerned about unintended consequences must really be using NKM.

Basically a more fancy wording of: pulling facts out of the arse.

It is obvious that this whole assertion rests on the assumption that PI (in secret) follows a doctrine to purposefully mess stuff up.

 

[frolix42]

It is obvious that this whole assertion rests on the assumption that PI (in secret) follows a doctrine to purposefully mess stuff up.

Indeed. Many people love to paint themselves as martyred by patches, ignoring the trend that quality of the product has increased by an incredible degree since release. Given that I haven't agreed with all patch changes Paradox has made, I would never want them to reach a point where they just give up and leave bugs like NK Mode in the game.

I'm very surprised that there is a portion of the player-base who seems to not want Paradox to improve and patch their products unless there is an realistically unattainable unanimity behind all patch changes.

 

[daemonofdecay]

1) The "fix" is going to hit everyone, including those not playing NKM. If it was something like "any time you're 10 over the limit you get zero demesne troops" I'd be fine with it, but it's not. It's going to affect anyone going the slightest bit over their demesne, which wasn't the original intention for the "fix". It was supposed to nerf NKM, *not* rebalance gameplay...

What is your source for this? I don't remember the Devs saying that someone who is one province over his limit is going to garner the same modifiers as someone who is ten, twenty, or a hundred provinces over their limit.

2) Most people shouldn't care about how others play the game. If I'm going to try a ridiculously hard start like a Karen vassal and want to go over my demesne limit to make it even remotely playable, why should people on here be telling me that I'm playing the game "wrong"? The game is set up to be as hard or as easy as you want it. If you want easy, there's the assassination button. Or start a the Emperor for the ERE/HRE. If you want ridiculously hard, try Canaries or Norrland in 1066. Or play by house rules that prohibit things like matrilinear marriages. The beauty of the game is that you tailor it to be whatever YOU want, and however YOU want to play. PDX can do whatever they want with the game, it's their game. What's annoying are the people on here claiming that other people are playing the game wrong, or that the "fix" SHOULD be all-encompassing and hit everyone because that's the way they want everyone else to play...

They're fixing what they see as a bug and an issue of balance. This NKM is no different then my hypothetical NbKM for Hearts of Iron. If you think having cavalry be more powerful than tanks is fine because you don't have to use cavalry, and game balance can be fixed in multiplayer with just some house rules, then that is fair enough. But for the rest of us - and the Paradox developers - they are not just going to forgo game balance and fixing problems in their game just because some players prefer the exploit.

And there is an exploit that gives you free gold, it's the command prompt.

Exactly. If players want to "exploit" the game, then there are still plenty of ways to do so. They are not removing your ability to play the game as you want, they are just fixing a problem in the vanilla game, just like they would fix a hypothetically non-functioning G-key.

If someone wants to play the game in North Korea mode, or Space Marine mode, or Cybernetic Dinosaur mode, then they are still free to mod the vanilla game to represent their vision. If you like NKM, a few modified .txt files and you are able to do so with ease. You don't need to demand that Paradox keep the game bugged and exploitable. Like you say, the game is as easy or hard as you want it to be. So nobody should complain about Paradox trying to fix the game and remove an exploit to improve the vanilla game. If you still prefer NKM, there is literally nothing stopping you from continuing to use it post this patch. All you need to do is just get a bunch of free gold from the console so you can use mercenaries instead of levies.

 

[daemonofdecay]

Indeed. Many people love to paint themselves as martyred by patches, ignoring the trend that quality of the product has increased by an incredible degree since release. Given that I haven't agreed with all patch changes Paradox has made, I would never want them to reach a point where they just give up and leave bugs like NK Mode in the game.

I'm very surprised that there is a portion of the player-base who seems to not want Paradox to improve and patch their products unless there is an realistically unattainable unanimity behind all patch changes.

Indeed. I would imagine most players would be happy to see Paradox fix an obvious flaw in the game. Just because this bug has allowed people to play the game differently by exploiting something wrong with the game mechanics (cavalry beating tanks in HoI), they seem to feel like they are being attacked. Paradox is supposed to eradicate bugs and exploits, no matter how much some might love exploiting them. That's their job. If players don't want to play with Paradox's feudal simulation (aka the vanilla game) then they can mod in their NKM Space Marines or whatever ahistorical game-breaking stuff they wish.

But to demand that the game remain unchanged in perpetuity just because some players might enjoy playing with flaws is silly and self-centered.

 

[frolix42]

If I'm going to try a ridiculously hard start like a Karen vassal and want to go over my demesne limit to make it even remotely playable, why should people on here be telling me that I'm playing the game "wrong"?

What is a Karen vassal? An example of a nearly impossible start would be the county of Luxemborg in 867, simply because the King of Lotherangia almost always revokes that title because the AI is programmed to want it as a capital.

But...that's the game...

 

[Kumicho]

If I go over the point at which I cannot effectively maintain control over my lands, then I should suffer a penalty. The more I go over this limit, the larger the penalty.

Why is this a problem?

There already is a penalty, and it's been the same for the past 2 years. I haven't heard of ANYONE complaining that it wasn't adequate before this latest "fix".

 

[Kumicho]

I'll take the bait, even if it's low quality.



So I'm not going to be effected if the game is changed to be the way you want it?

Breathtaking. Did you know that there is more than one copy of CK2 in existence?

Can you really not see the difference between someone wanting their OWN game improved, and someone demanding SOMEONE ELSE'S game be changed? I don't care how you play your game, but the minute that you start whining to the devs to change the way I play my game, you've become a whiner, in my eyes.

 

[frolix42]

There already is a penalty, and it's been the same for the past 2 years. I haven't heard of ANYONE complaining that it wasn't adequate before this latest "fix".

You've never heard of people complaining about NK Mode? Paradox has, so they have promised to fix it. I'm glad that Paradox listens to it's customers.

Can you really not see the difference between someone wanting their OWN game improved, and someone demanding SOMEONE ELSE'S game be changed? I don't care how you play your game, but the minute that you start whining to the devs to change the way I play my game, you've become a whiner, in my eyes.

Did you know that the people at Paradox Studios have sold their games to people other than you? When you express your opinion here about how you think the game should be improved, you are demanding that someone else's game also be changed. When someone else expresses their opinion about how game should be improved, it's not whining just because it disagrees with your opinion.

I very much don't care how you look upon with contempt people who disagree with you. I have no sympathy for you when you complain that BaronIronmaggot is being childish and calling you names (he's not) then you turn around and call me a whiner just because I disagree with you. This is very hypocritical. I would much prefer you to keep this type of opinion to yourself and discuss NK Mode.

 

[Kumicho]

What is your source for this? I don't remember the Devs saying that someone who is one province over his limit is going to garner the same modifiers as someone who is ten, twenty, or a hundred provinces over their limit.

I'll post it again:

Small counts and dukes who go over their demense limit just a little bit will be a bit penalized but not to the same degree.

Anyone going over their demesne limit will be impacted. Period.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

There already is a penalty, and it's been the same for the past 2 years. ...

Not true. Changed with 1.10.