Load regular troops in transport planes

[Modo]

An infantry brigade is twice as heavy an airborne one. 10 versus 5.

That's just a game mechanic set up for sea transport. Support brigades were also inherent in every division, but you don't see each having 5 or 10 of them. Citing game mechanics doesn't change reality.

And as I said, artillery etc. could be modelled as being disassembled and, with a attack delay, reassembled.

Following this logic, you can airlift anything, even a Schwere Panzer Abteilung with all of its gear. Since we're on the subject, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

[timkoningskelp]

I would like to see that you could air transport MTN troops between different airfields. Of course not drop them in hostile territory but use them to reinforce bridgeheads captured by paratroopers. They had light and dismantable equipment, for mule transports etc, so they would fit into transports planes.

I agree HQs would be nice as well.

There are some examples of this being done in real life. Crete would be an obvious example, but the Germans also transported troops by airlift to Norway, Holland, the Balkans and on the eastern front. The Demjansk pocket being a prime example of this, where the Germans managed to keep an entire corps in fighting condition for months by flying in replacements, reinforcements, equipment, supplies and ammunition. They did not only keep the formations already in the pocket in shape, they even reinforced these units with new troops.

With regards to transporting HQ's by air: this was done quite often. The HQ of the SS panzerkorps which was relocated from Kursk to Italy in the summer of 1943 was flown to Italy, including it's equipment. The bulk of the 11. AOK was transported to Leningrad by air after the conquest of the Crimea and arrived there weeks in advance of it's combatformations which followed by rail. Airlifting an HQ should definatly be possible, provide you have an operational airfield at the location where you want this HQ to be unloaded.

 

[panzeroo]

This where the game is limited. There is noway to prevent a unit allowed as airliftable to also be allowed to be paradropped. Any unit made airliftable will also become para enabled. Whilst the player might decide not to exploit paradropping spammed HQs all over the place the AI might decide otherwise...

It would be great if there was a distinction between airlift mission ( from airfield to airfield ) and paradrop missions . As well it would be great if there was a difference between sea transported unit missions ( from port to port ) and sea invasion missions.

 

[Chromos]

This where the game is limited. There is noway to prevent a unit allowed as airliftable to also be allowed to be paradropped. Any unit made airliftable will also become para enabled. Whilst the player might decide not to exploit paradropping spammed HQs all over the place the AI might decide otherwise...

It would be great if there was a distinction between airlift mission ( from airfield to airfield ) and paradrop missions . As well it would be great if there was a difference between sea transported unit missions ( from port to port ) and sea invasion missions.

+1
Should be on the HOI3 wishlist..

Kind regards,
Chromos

 

[Loke]

If I remember correct, Tunisia was captured from "air" by elements of the german "Von Broich" div. and the italian "Superga" div. In nov 1942. And both infantry div...

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Sources for that? 2 inf div by air took an entire country? Are you talking about taking over from Vichy France? In which case infantry could be flow in very small numbers without heavy equipment, similar to flying in reinforcements, because they did not have to fight battles.

The game is fine as is with this: 105s + 150s would not fit into WW2 air transports except for the Giants which were another of Hitler's obsession with everything being bigger [but not better].

And while it was technically possible to air transport parts of inf divisions, that had to unfold over time which is again something that the game doesn't handle. Germany air transported 2 Nat Spanish divisions from Africa during the Spanish Civil War [I'm not sure what equipement or trucks or horses they had], but that took 2 months. How do you simulate a 1 or 2 month airborne operation to move one infantry division?

As for HQ, how difficult is it to create an Hq on the spot for airborne? If they hold a province, you can give them an HQ instantly. And HQ are not needed, they add something, something that paratroopers were trained to do without.

The 22nd air landing division was part of Germany's unique setup for airborne operations through Crete: but any unit like that, including Ringel's mountain division, relied upon the seizing of an intact airfield to land troops rather than using para or gliders to first take the airfield. Again something hard to simulate within the game. The game handles this right and no extra coding for refinements are needed.

 

[alex0809]

OK, what you all said sounds reasonable. Still, I don't think it would break the game if it was implemented for infantry divisions only, only landings at friendly airports.

Another small question, I don't want to open another thread for it:
what do you use Multi-Role fighters for? Do you even use them at all? Since when I look at the stats, I think they might be quite useful when you need CAS but don't have air superiority yet - true?

 

[panzeroo]

I find the multi roles are good in regions with only few low level airfields such as north africa and burma. An air unit which can fight air battles and bomb is very useful here.

 

[Loke]

john heidle,

#1 One of my sources for this; B H Lidell Hart(wellknown author) and his famous History of the Second World War. Im sure you can find alot more historical litterature about the Tunisian campaign.
#2 These two divisions among the initial axis troops in Tunisia.
#3 Axis forces started arriving by air november 9 at the airfield of "El Aouina" near Tunis without meeting any french resistance, nov 11th the axis numbers was strong enough and they could disarm the french troops surrounding them, nov 17th the first contact between allies(american/british) and axis forces in Tunisia.

Oh, and they did fight battles aswell even without heavy equipment, this was a successful improvised operation.

 

[juv95hrn]

This where the game is limited. There is noway to prevent a unit allowed as airliftable to also be allowed to be paradropped. Any unit made airliftable will also become para enabled. Whilst the player might decide not to exploit paradropping spammed HQs all over the place the AI might decide otherwise...

It would be great if there was a distinction between airlift mission ( from airfield to airfield ) and paradrop missions . As well it would be great if there was a difference between sea transported unit missions ( from port to port ) and sea invasion missions.

+2

 

[Loke]

+2

+3

 

[jju_57]

What we don't know about those two infantry divsions in Tunesia is how their equipment got there. For example during Gulf War one the troops arrived in Saudia Arabia from planes. But most of their euipment was shipped in. The US also used prepositioned equipment as part of their strategy.

So maybe those two divisions had a batallion or two flown in and got their equipment from ships at the docks. often troops can be flown to a place to secure it and then get the rest of their equipment before going on offensive operations.

What I see is an issue is not flying troops from Germany to Rome to eventually fight there. Their equpiment can be sent by rail. But the issue is para's capturing an airfield behind enemy lines and you flying in infantry divisions. ther eis no way their equipment can get to them since the airfiled is cut off. Most of the examples listed here already had the heavy equipment at the desitination or they didn't use it. But the game can't seperate out the heavy equipment form an infantry division so this would end up being an exploit.

 

[panzeroo]

the exploit could be counterd by allowing only an infantry brigade air lifted per air unit, and only a few days worth of supply. So the infantry will quickly die from lack of supply unless a port/ land route is possible. In general though the air lift concept is pointless as paratroops will achieve the same goal. Why air lift an infantry briagde when you can send in a para divsion ?

 

[Modo]

To prevent exploits, you'd need the airlift mission itself to take a very, very long time. Attack delays or low supply won't cut it, 'cause the former won't stop defensive airlifts along a front, and the latter can be countered by players building a couple more transport planes.

It would be great if there was a distinction between airlift mission ( from airfield to airfield ) and paradrop missions .

It would be great if there was an airlift mission at all. I'm not sure the current method of redeploying loaded planes was even intended.

As well it would be great if there was a difference between sea transported unit missions ( from port to port ) and sea invasion missions.

Isn't there already a sea transport mission?

 

[panzeroo]

perhaps a huge org malus to airlifted troops, so that they are broken very quickly if they are in a heavy fight.
The sea transport mission is the same as sea invasion. So a 1936 transport fleet can launch a dday sized sea invasion without much issue. It would be great to have a distinction between a nation transporting a division or corps sized formation between friendly ports and using the same boats and troops to launch a sea invasion of enemy coast.

 

[comsubpac]

perhaps a huge org malus to airlifted troops, so that they are broken very quickly if they are in a heavy fight.
The sea transport mission is the same as sea invasion. So a 1936 transport fleet can launch a dday sized sea invasion without much issue. It would be great to have a distinction between a nation transporting a division or corps sized formation between friendly ports and using the same boats and troops to launch a sea invasion of enemy coast.

as long as you don't have a port the mission is different. as soon as you conquered one i see no reason why using that harbor should be different from using one in your own territory.

 

[jju_57]

How about they fix the sea transport missions first. Right now I can off load a tank division in an hour and its ready for battle.

The best way to fix any kind a transportation malus is through organization. Set it to zero and then keep it there for X period of time. This not only means it can't attack but it can get killed if forced to defend. After the time period is over raise to to full organization and allow normal activities for the unit.

Today we use sea transportaion as an exploit (para capture port sea transport in few divisions) and if you allow this for airbases you are just making another exploit. And all that will happen is MP games will set house rules against it and the AI won't do it and human vs AI will use it as it they already don't have enough going for them.

 

[comsubpac]

How about they fix the sea transport missions first. Right now I can off load a tank division in an hour and its ready for battle.

The best way to fix any kind a transportation malus is through organization. Set it to zero and then keep it there for X period of time. This not only means it can't attack but it can get killed if forced to defend. After the time period is over raise to to full organization and allow normal activities for the unit.

Today we use sea transportaion as an exploit (para capture port sea transport in few divisions) and if you allow this for airbases you are just making another exploit. And all that will happen is MP games will set house rules against it and the AI won't do it and human vs AI will use it as it they already don't have enough going for them.

maybe they could put a (extended) attack delay to the transport mission.

 

[jju_57]

maybe they could put a (extended) attack delay to the transport mission.

Attack delay doesn't stop them from defending at 100%. Those units just shipped in should not be able to defend that well. It takes hours to off load all the equipment and supplies. And that's the real exploit here.

For example. The AI or a human in MP makes a mistake and moves a port defending stack out of the province. A para unit captures the province and the AI/human realizing what happened orders the stack to attack the port to get it back. The other side transports in 5 divisions and they are all part of the battle in that very same hour. Those 5 divisions should not be allowed to participate in the defense for hours or even a day.

 

[comsubpac]

Attack delay doesn't stop them from defending at 100%. Those units just shipped in should not be able to defend that well. It takes hours to off load all the equipment and supplies. And that's the real exploit here.

For example. The AI or a human in MP makes a mistake and moves a port defending stack out of the province. A para unit captures the province and the AI/human realizing what happened orders the stack to attack the port to get it back. The other side transports in 5 divisions and they are all part of the battle in that very same hour. Those 5 divisions should not be allowed to participate in the defense for hours or even a day.

so those divisions should stay in reserve for a certain time? that should prevent them from entering the battle.