Legacy of the Prometheans

[whatguts]

Here's an idea- in Myth, Prometheus has great foresight, thus he was able to foresee the future of men, that his creations would die without fire, and so he theft

you can base it off a secret society that- foresaw as Prometheus did, and prevented WW1 from happening by killing the assassin Danilo Ilić, thus preventing WWI from happening, or more or less reduced to a regional conflict with minimum territorial changes.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Here's an idea- in Myth, Prometheus has great foresight, thus he was able to foresee the future of men, that his creations would die without fire, and so he theft

you can base it off a secret society that- foresaw as Prometheus did, and prevented WW1 from happening by killing the assassin Danilo Ilić, thus preventing WWI from happening, or more or less reduced to a regional conflict with minimum territorial changes.

But that would lead to world peace!
We can't have that, it would be boring.

I do like the idea of having secret societies though.

 

[Ithron]

A greater Baltic republic
I guess it depends on what deal Russia makes with Germany, in The First World War.

Well, with war going as in our timeline and Russia and Germany both loosing it, its not that much up to them. Also, with a pre-1500 PoD even things like Germanized Prussia can be avoided. So, if interested in Baltic-centric regional power, I'd be glad to help.

 

[EmperorWillham]

colonial democracies fighting against pluralist democracies
You might have to explain this one.

There are couple of large colonial empires, like French and British, which are especially close to one another. And then there are democracies like USA which are anti-colonialist. Lets take this example - imagine Franco-British union fully happening, like it was imagined briefly in our timeline in 1940 and 1956. Might such a larger state attempt to fight more for its colonial belongings? Possibly. So putting that to the extreme and a chance of hostilities with USA is there, if Franco-British union is fighting some colonial rebels and USA decides to fully support the rebel side. Thus, colonial democracies go into war against "pluralist"/"anti-colonial" democracies. Of course, fighting against USA is possibly only if these colonial democracies are either couple of them together (thats why I mention Franc-British union), they are not beaten in 2 world wars, USA is weaker, or other conditions.
Realistically, just this one case of differences in foreign policy usually is far from enough for a war between great states. But, if there are other reasons for hostilities, then it can be explored.

One more idea - a Portugal-Brazilian federation with a capital on some island in the middle between them might be also an interesting addition. Especially if game can go for 30+ years then such integration process could actually happen also during the game, though, would make more sense to be at the start.

And one more idea: The question of 51st state. for a short time after 1945 Sicily had a group lobbying for joining the USA. Also in USA itself there were ideas about the need to annex Japan fully into USA after 1945. And then there were ideas that Taiwan, with the last anti-communists sheltering there, should also join the USA.. And of course, Cuba, was de-facto USA territory in the second part of 19th century. Now, of course, USA is already a superpower.. at least post-WW1. But, the option for USA to go into these or similar cases with the attitude: "To hell with it, we can enlarge anywhere if people want it" would be also an interesting development. With appropriate difficulties, costs, negative reactions from other states, etc.

AAnd one more: this concept is a great one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Federation

Anyway, all depends on whats the timeline, the point of divergence and how to make the world consistent with itself.

Portugal-Brazilian federation

Portugal-Brazilian federation, with the capital in The Azores?
I thought I had strange ideas.

Still though, it sounds incredibly interesting, and very weird.
Were the Brazilians and Portuguese willing to do it?

American empire
I was thinking of having the U.S. be a more isolated nation in this world after World War One.
Thus leading to some radical changes in the rest of the world.

However, some people may want to create an empire,
so I guess there is room to add some events in the future for additional states joining the union.

Imperial federation
It definitely sounds interesting.
In this timeline the Lanyans did a similar thing with their empire.
So, I see no reason why the British could not do it as well.
Of course depending on how prevalent the feelings of nationalism are in their various dominions.

Franco-British Union-United States Cold War thing
This would depend on whether not France has that revolution,
in which case kiss all those Colonies goodbye,
or if France is in some serious trouble with Germany.

I guess it would be something interesting to explore.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Well, with war going as in our timeline and Russia and Germany both loosing it, its not that much up to them. Also, with a pre-1500 PoD even things like Germanized Prussia can be avoided. So, if interested in Baltic-centric regional power, I'd be glad to help.

I knew having such a odd divergence point would be a bad idea...
So what kind of Baltic Republic the did you have in mind?

I was thinking if the Russian Republican government ended the war sooner,
they could have avoided a Communist revolution.

Having a peace deal granting independence to Poland, Finland, Lithuania, and Courland.

 

[Ithron]

Portugal-Brazil nearly came to be a real thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Portugal,_Brazil_and_the_Algarves

American empire. Well, it would be a democratic global federation, not an empire . The problem with USA is that starting from the beginning of the 20th century, USA can in time conquer the world - because its large homebase power (and large it is in all aspects: industry, manpower, resources, tech) is so well defended. So, any endgame struggle might in the end be the same - "somebody" vs "USA". But to neutralize or minimize its power realistically is a difficult thing. Sure, pre-1914 struggle between USA and some random 1-2 European empires should be unwinnable for USA. But if the war lasts more then 10 years, then USA would have a good chance of winning.

Baltic republic: well, thats just one thing that I've been exploring in my games. Long live the Paradox games for fueling nationalism :rofl:. With a start in 867 building up a stable and prosperous Baltic power capable of realistically standing on its own against most threats is quite possible . Sure, you can conquer the world in any Paradox game.. but where's the realism in that. Basically, a country encompassing 3 modern Baltic states, Prussia, North-Western Belarus, modern Pskov oblast, and in rarer case all Baltic sea islands - makes a country that is as powerful as Poland in 17th century or Spain in 19th, and some 2-3 times more powerful than Sweden in 20th century. It still is not an heavy-industrial powerhouse because all that region has only low-value local coal, but its not an easy pushover minor either.


During mid-20th century some Baltic people thought that Aistija (a country of Latvia+Lithuania+in extreme cases also Prussia) would be a good idea. Like Czechs and Slovaks at the end of 19th century and beginning 20th created the bases for a constructed country "Czechoslovakia". These guys wanted the same for Balts. Aistija was a fringe idea, but, some pan-Baltic country could also be formed as a result of 1st world war. After all, in Bulduri conference, in 1920, where Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, Ukrainian and Finnish delegations participated, it was included in documents, that these countries (well, except Ukraine), are organizing cooperation and looking into possibilities of formulating a Baltic Confederation.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Portugal-Brazil nearly came to be a real thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Portugal,_Brazil_and_the_Algarves

American empire. Well, it would be a democratic global federation, not an empire . The problem with USA is that starting from the beginning of the 20th century, USA can in time conquer the world - because its large homebase power (and large it is in all aspects: industry, manpower, resources, tech) is so well defended. So, any endgame struggle might in the end be the same - "somebody" vs "USA". But to neutralize or minimize its power realistically is a difficult thing. Sure, pre-1914 struggle between USA and some random 1-2 European empires should be unwinnable for USA. But if the war lasts more then 10 years, then USA would have a good chance of winning.

Baltic republic: well, thats just one thing that I've been exploring in my games. Long live the Paradox games for fueling nationalism :rofl:. With a start in 867 building up a stable and prosperous Baltic power capable of realistically standing on its own against most threats is quite possible . Sure, you can conquer the world in any Paradox game.. but where's the realism in that. Basically, a country encompassing 3 modern Baltic states, Prussia, North-Western Belarus, modern Pskov oblast, and in rarer case all Baltic sea islands - makes a country that is as powerful as Poland in 17th century or Spain in 19th, and some 2-3 times more powerful than Sweden in 20th century. It still is not an heavy-industrial powerhouse because all that region has only low-value local coal, but its not an easy pushover minor either.


During mid-20th century some Baltic people thought that Aistija (a country of Latvia+Lithuania+in extreme cases also Prussia) would be a good idea. Like Czechs and Slovaks at the end of 19th century and beginning 20th created the bases for a constructed country "Czechoslovakia". These guys wanted the same for Balts. Aistija was a fringe idea, but, some pan-Baltic country could also be formed as a result of 1st world war. After all, in Bulduri conference, in 1920, where Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, Ukrainian and Finnish delegations participated, it was included in documents, that these countries (well, except Ukraine), are organizing cooperation and looking into possibilities of formulating a Baltic Confederation.

Portugal-Brazil

Didn't Brazil leave that for a reason?
I guess it could have survived.
Any ideas on that?



American "global" federation
Yeah, I think it's probably best for America, if it were to stay where it's at.
Be better for everyone else as well.

Having a nation that can produce tons of stuff, and have it's homeland nearly untouchable.
Of course, events have a way of knocking you out of isolationism.


Baltic republic

OK, so let me get this straight.
You're gunning for a Baltic Republic consisting of the three Baltic states,
plus Eastern Prussia?

So why did they not do this in real life?

Also love to hear more about this "Bulduri conference".

I have to say, I'd never heard of this before.

I have heard of the United Baltic puppet state of the German empire,
but not a Baltic Republic of their own formation.

 

[Ithron]

Of course, Baltic Republic never existed. Its my own term for a Baltic state that I've created in some Paradox games and that has some resemblance with real life ideas. But none of the Baltic Confederation or Baltic Federation or Baltic Union ideas ever went farther than couple of discussions. United Baltic Duchy - thats a state that did indeed existed, at least on paper.

With Germany winning the WW1 OR Entante allowing Germans to do what they please in their eastern held territories in 1918-1920, a German puppet-states like United Baltic Duchy might very well have survived. Because even after defeat in western front Germany was clearly the leading power in the region between Baltic and Black seas. In fact, such interesting people like von der Goltz (liked by Finnish, hated by Baltics ) dreamed that he'll organize a Baltic puppet under leadership of Prussian power, rebuild German armies and establish a German-loyal Russian government. And with a Russia backing Germany, soon re-start military activities in the west. But, Entante by direct and inderect military support helped to ensure that Germans more or less (..) but do respected their defeat and retreated from this region.

Portugal-Brazil
Yes, Brazil left, but it was an interesting concept. Even more so because that state would have colonies in Africa.


"Baltic republic

OK, so let me get this straight.
You're gunning for a Baltic Republic consisting of the three Baltic states,
plus Eastern Prussia?

So why did they not do this in real life?"

Yes, pretty much. I'm advising that a way to make this region more interesting and not just a pushover between German-power and Russo-power is a buffing and consolidation.

They did not do this in real life because: 1) Surrounding powers like Sweden and Russia centralized in 15-16th centuries much better than local Livonian confederation ever managed. And whenever state centralized it tries to limit consolidation of power in its near surrounding. Thus, growth of powers on eastern shores of Baltic sea were impossible. 2) If Lithuania stays independent (meaning - doesn't form Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth) and manages to sustain itself longer against Russia (not an impossible task), then Eastern Prussia and modern Latvia and Estonia might very well in time come under its control. Well, it might even happen with Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, so it might be both ways. So there was some possibility there. 3) In our timeline, post-ww1 no Baltic confederation happened because: a) couple of countries had border conflicts, namely Lithuania and Poland that totally destroyed any serious regional cooperation; b) when in 1930s Lithuania and Poland had let their mutual conflict decrease to almost reasonable levels and some chance of serious regional cooperation arouse, the historical great powers (namely Germany and Soviet Union) of the region had regained their influence and neither of them planned to allow any kind of serious regional cooperation between countries Finland to Romania.

But, if: 1) no Lithuanian-Polish war; 2) abit more reasonable Polish foreign policy; 3) idea of regional federation abit more popular, 4) Germany and Soviet Union abit less successful in their foreign policy, then -> some kind of Baltic or "Intermarium" cooperation is a quite realistic chance.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Of course, Baltic Republic never existed. Its my own term for a Baltic state that I've created in some Paradox games and that has some resemblance with real life ideas. But none of the Baltic Confederation or Baltic Federation or Baltic Union ideas ever went farther than couple of discussions. United Baltic Duchy - thats a state that did indeed existed, at least on paper.

With Germany winning the WW1 OR Entante allowing Germans to do what they please in their eastern held territories in 1918-1920, a German puppet-states like United Baltic Duchy might very well have survived. Because even after defeat in western front Germany was clearly the leading power in the region between Baltic and Black seas. In fact, such interesting people like von der Goltz (liked by Finnish, hated by Baltics ) dreamed that he'll organize a Baltic puppet under leadership of Prussian power, rebuild German armies and establish a German-loyal Russian government. And with a Russia backing Germany, soon re-start military activities in the west. But, Entante by direct and inderect military support helped to ensure that Germans more or less (..) but do respected their defeat and retreated from this region.

Portugal-Brazil
Yes, Brazil left, but it was an interesting concept. Even more so because that state would have colonies in Africa.


"Baltic republic

OK, so let me get this straight.
You're gunning for a Baltic Republic consisting of the three Baltic states,
plus Eastern Prussia?

So why did they not do this in real life?"

Yes, pretty much. I'm advising that a way to make this region more interesting and not just a pushover between German-power and Russo-power is a buffing and consolidation.

They did not do this in real life because: 1) Surrounding powers like Sweden and Russia centralized in 15-16th centuries much better than local Livonian confederation ever managed. And whenever state centralized it tries to limit consolidation of power in its near surrounding. Thus, growth of powers on eastern shores of Baltic sea were impossible. 2) If Lithuania stays independent (meaning - doesn't form Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth) and manages to sustain itself longer against Russia (not an impossible task), then Eastern Prussia and modern Latvia and Estonia might very well in time come under its control. Well, it might even happen with Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, so it might be both ways. So there was some possibility there. 3) In our timeline, post-ww1 no Baltic confederation happened because: a) couple of countries had border conflicts, namely Lithuania and Poland that totally destroyed any serious regional cooperation; b) when in 1930s Lithuania and Poland had let their mutual conflict decrease to almost reasonable levels and some chance of serious regional cooperation arouse, the historical great powers (namely Germany and Soviet Union) of the region had regained their influence and neither of them planned to allow any kind of serious regional cooperation between countries Finland to Romania.

But, if: 1) no Lithuanian-Polish war; 2) abit more reasonable Polish foreign policy; 3) idea of regional federation abit more popular, 4) Germany and Soviet Union abit less successful in their foreign policy, then -> some kind of Baltic or "Intermarium" cooperation is a quite realistic chance.

Intermarium

Maybe nothing this extreme.

Maybe an alliance for start, then it can grow into a eastern European Union?
Of course this is depending on politics, and if the great powers don't mess it up.

Three Baltics Republic

So what about the three Baltic states uniting into a Republic,
with Finland as a observer.

If I were to pull off such a thing, how would you get Poland to back off?
So the right conditions can be met to created it.

 

[OnFire]

What about an Islamic Caliphate state in Greater-Arabia (Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Iraq)?

 

[Ithron]

Yes, Intermarum is extreme and I'm not suggesting having it. Not against it, but not very in favor either. Though, it might be worth keeping in mind that Kaiserreich mod doesn't really have Intermarum (except in some very rare event cases), so, if need is to dramatically change dynamics in this part of Europe, then Intermarum concept might help.

A Baltic Republic/Union/Federation from Narva to Klaipeda? Or preferably, up till Danzig? Yes, that would be great!

Concerning Poland. Baltic Republic should have enough resources to stand on its own against Poland, with similar power level, if Baltic Republic exist at least since, for example, Napoleonic wars (basically, an independence of such a state at least 100 years before 20th century would probably lead to at least the same power levels as Poland postWW1). Like Belgium and Netherlands, with some luck in international relations, Poland and Baltics might be on permanently decent relations. Main threat to both Poland and Baltics anyway would be some German state and some Russian state, whatever their names.

Anyway, it would be easier if you would decide if there are specific goals, points of divergence or definite countries to be included. Because otherwise, there are plenty, plenty of interesting cases and possibilities. Starting from Novogord-led Russia and ending with Confederate conquest of Caribbean .

An alternative concerning Baltics or some other nearby region where Germany has interest, using Rüdiger von der Goltz and his bizzare ally Pavel Bermondt-Avalov as a lighter versions of Roman von Ungern-Sternberg might be a concept worth exploring. Establishing their German-aligned artificial states in post-chaos of WW1, with clear goals of conquest and ambitious power play.

 

[EmperorWillham]

What about an Islamic Caliphate state in Greater-Arabia (Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Iraq)?

A Pan-Arab state is possible.

However, you do have the foreign empires who wish to put that region in their sphere.
The Entente powers wanted pieces of the Ottoman empire at the end of the first world war.

However if the ottoman empire did not join the war?

Or if everything played out similarly to the OLT.
You'll have something like ISIS possibly rising up.

The situation that is going on in the real world.
Really shows this could happening.

I guess it depends on whether not the situation was handled in a a better way,
or a screwed up route. (OTL)

Sorry for the rambling.
I think we'll add a possibility of doing this in one of those two ways.

 

[Ithron]

I think Islamist fundamentalists shouldn't really be in-game if they closely resemble current Islamist fundamentalists. They rather should resemble Senussi.

Pan-Arabist state is a great idea. But it then should have a plenty of events concerning the many problems that such a state would have. It is/was both a real state and a real possibility, but not without many difficulties.

 

[EmperorWillham]

Yes, Intermarum is extreme and I'm not suggesting having it. Not against it, but not very in favor either. Though, it might be worth keeping in mind that Kaiserreich mod doesn't really have Intermarum (except in some very rare event cases), so, if need is to dramatically change dynamics in this part of Europe, then Intermarum concept might help.

A Baltic Republic/Union/Federation from Narva to Klaipeda? Or preferably, up till Danzig? Yes, that would be great!

Concerning Poland. Baltic Republic should have enough resources to stand on its own against Poland, with similar power level, if Baltic Republic exist at least since, for example, Napoleonic wars (basically, an independence of such a state at least 100 years before 20th century would probably lead to at least the same power levels as Poland postWW1). Like Belgium and Netherlands, with some luck in international relations, Poland and Baltics might be on permanently decent relations. Main threat to both Poland and Baltics anyway would be some German state and some Russian state, whatever their names.

Anyway, it would be easier if you would decide if there are specific goals, points of divergence or definite countries to be included. Because otherwise, there are plenty, plenty of interesting cases and possibilities. Starting from Novogord-led Russia and ending with Confederate conquest of Caribbean .

An alternative concerning Baltics or some other nearby region where Germany has interest, using Rüdiger von der Goltz and his bizzare ally Pavel Bermondt-Avalov as a lighter versions of Roman von Ungern-Sternberg might be a concept worth exploring. Establishing their German-aligned artificial states in post-chaos of WW1, with clear goals of conquest and ambitious power play.

OK so if this Napoleonic Baltic Republic existed,
how much would it screw up world war one?

Like I said before.
I'm just beginning to wonder if I have made mistake in making such a weird POD.

However, if it clears things up.

Roman empire fell.

The dark ages happened.

The Mongols fell.

The colonization of the Americas happened pretty much like in the OLT. (Could be subject to change.)

The renaissance happened.

Romanov dynasty formed the Russian empire.

The U.S. won the revolution.

Napoleon was defeated.

The north won the Civil War.

Italy unified

Germany unified.

Europeans colonized Africa. (Borders could be little different, though.)

The idea of Communism was created.

Japan begins opening up to the west.

Technology is probably 10 years more advanced than in OLT.

Spanish-American war. (Need help with this one.)

Europe is divided into two power blocs.

Great war happens. (The cause is left to be determined.)

 

[EmperorWillham]

I think Islamist fundamentalists shouldn't really be in-game if they closely resemble current Islamist fundamentalists. They rather should resemble Senussi.

Pan-Arabist state is a great idea. But it then should have a plenty of events concerning the many problems that such a state would have. It is/was both a real state and a real possibility, but not without many difficulties.

Yeah, it would have many problems. It's the Middle East.

Well the first Caliphate, was pretty ahead of its time.

The Arabians did not overthrow The Ottoman empire, for 500 years,
so it seems such a super state can exist in the region.


Then there's the British, who stirred up Arabian nationalism.

Then a course there's the Jewish question.

The Sunni-Shiite division.

Need to create industry and infrastructure.

Then there's fundamentalists and power hungry king and generals, to deal with.

I guess all of this depends on whether or not this happened in a peaceful or violent matter.

If it's peaceful that a democratic Arab State could form, if not
then the people will turn to violent fundamentalists, to fix the borders.

Like we see what's going on now.

 

[Shatterfury]

But that would lead to world peace!
We can't have that, it would be boring.

I do like the idea of having secret societies though.

No it would not.

WW1 happened because of nationalism, the assassination was just an excuse.

France wanted to knock Germany down so it can be the most important mainland power again, UK wanted to make sure no one can touch them so they formed an alliance that drew them in WW1.The German Empire wanted to get some colonies and keep it`s status as the most powerful European power, The Russian Empire was going through a pan-slavism phase and USA...well I don`t know why they would even join, to troll the Germans I guess.

 

[EmperorWillham]

No it would not.

WW1 happened because of nationalism, the assassination was just an excuse.

France wanted to knock Germany down so it can be the most important mainland power again, UK wanted to make sure no one can touch them so they formed an alliance that drew them in WW1.The German Empire wanted to get some colonies and keep it`s status as the most powerful European power, The Russian Empire was going through a pan-slavism phase and USA...well I don`t know why they would even join, to troll the Germans I guess.

I see you're point. I guess that's why some people think it was destiny.

So, how would preventing Danilo Ilić do anything than?

 

[EmperorWillham]

OK, I'm thinking about having some classical music for the default tracks.
Then have The Radio stations, come in around the twenties.

 

[Shatterfury]

I see you're point. I guess that's why some people think it was destiny.

So, how would preventing Danilo Ilić do anything than?

Well we wouldn`t have a WW1 like we had but we would have one nonetheless.There was a huge tension in the air and the French and the Germans were butting heads and it didn`t help that the British gave the French the impression that they would back them.

A little more diplomatic foreplay and the French could have been facing the might if the German Empire on their own.

The British chose the French and the Russians because those two bordered their colonial possessions in Africa and in Asia while the Germans had very small colonial land.

The Kaiserliche Marine was of no consequence, the British Empire didn`t have to maintain a huge army like the German Empire thus they could a lot more resources to dedicate to the Royal Navy, far more then the Germans could ever have.
It helps to read British historians, it seems the "impending Teuton naval invasion" was just hot air to get people worked up.Since the French and the Russians were the only ones to could threaten the British colonial empire they were eliminated as enemies by being brought into an alliance.

There is no destiny on anything like that, just basic sociopolitical and geopolitical facts adding up.

So you say that the point of divergence will be in 1500? What about those made up nations that you wanted to put in?

 

[EmperorWillham]

Well we wouldn`t have a WW1 like we had but we would have one nonetheless.There was a huge tension in the air and the French and the Germans were butting heads and it didn`t help that the British gave the French the impression that they would back them.

A little more diplomatic foreplay and the French could have been facing the might if the German Empire on their own.

The British chose the French and the Russians because those two bordered their colonial possessions in Africa and in Asia while the Germans had very small colonial land.

The Kaiserliche Marine was of no consequence, the British Empire didn`t have to maintain a huge army like the German Empire thus they could a lot more resources to dedicate to the Royal Navy, far more then the Germans could ever have.
It helps to read British historians, it seems the "impending Teuton naval invasion" was just hot air to get people worked up.Since the French and the Russians were the only ones to could threaten the British colonial empire they were eliminated as enemies by being brought into an alliance.

There is no destiny on anything like that, just basic sociopolitical and geopolitical facts adding up.

So you say that the point of divergence will be in 1500? What about those made up nations that you wanted to put in?

Yeah, I know. It's just amazing how everything lined up perfectly to create such an event.

So what do you want to know about my "made up nations"?