Is Zunism's Placement in the Pagan Group Appropriate?

[kbernges]

Since I'm playing a Zunist game presently, I decided to do what I always do when I'm playing something with which I'm not familiar of the entity on which it is based: do some research into it.

From what information I've found on Zunbil religious practices, essentially they worshipped Zun, which is fully cognate with the Hindu god Surya. Essentially the relationship between Zunists and Hindus is similar to the comparison to Egyptian religion under Akhenaten and the standard polytheistic practice.

Additionally, the holy sites seem to have been put around the theme of sun worship rather than something more specific to the Zunbils: namely Baghdad, probably representing Ctesiphon, and Heliopolis, where the ancient Egyptian chief temple of Ra was located (though further south at Amarna would make more sense given the comparison of Aten's placement by Akhenaten to Surya's placement to the Zunbils).

Thus I begin to doubt that placing them within the Pagan group is appropriate, and also potentially whether them being unreformed pagan is appropriate, possibly with them more appropriately beginning reformed and in the Indian religion group. This is even further reinforced by the presence of the holy site in Multan, which seems to represent the Multan Sun Temple, a temple to Surya which appears in accounts by a Greek admiral in 515BCE (and was destroyed by the Ghaznavids). The one at Bost likely makes sense due to it being a Zunbil centre of power. Kabul is questionable, but may also make sense strictly due to it being the capital of the kingdom the Zunbils' starting territory exists in, though theoretically, it might be better to place a new holy site instead in (I'm not sure the exact placement) somewhere in the vicinity of the county of Gurjaratra to represent the Martand Sun Temple. Perhaps another in Orissa representing Arasavalli (county of Kalinganagar?). As for other sensible holy sites.... most of the other well-known Surya temples were built significantly after the start dates that Zunbils appear, thus it's questionable where an ideal placement would be, and maybe Kabul would have to be the sensible place.

Thoughts?

 

[Nameless_Ensign]

There is a mod that fixes parts of the Zunist faith that doesn't make sense, but it seems odd that they have it wrong when a simple google search would show the right results. I think they did it on purpose, making it unreformed Pagan so people know that they can reform the faith. I honestly prefer it that way if we get to reform, having fun religious events like that make it more enjoyable than the already 'reformed' religions.

No clue what the hell they were thinking with the Holy Sites, though.

 

[cybrxkhan]

From what I've read from the few scholarly sources available online, the Zunnils are, indeed as the op says, closely related to the Hindus. However I believe it is a bit more complicated than that. Afghanistan and Pakistan has had it's host of "pagan" religious systems (the modern-day Kalash, and the Nuristanis until a century ago are the remnants of this) that were part of the greater Indo-Iranian religious umbrella, but neither truly part of the Indian nor Iranian side. In that sense, I think that the Zunists are more accurately kinda prereformed Afghan pagans mixed with Hindu beliefs. Still, that said, things are a bit more complicated due to the history of the region - it's likely that Zun, and whatever practices surrounding Zun, were influenced by (possibly even originated with) the beliefs of the Kushan and Hephthalite hordes that swooped down a few centuries previously, as the Zunbils (and Shahis) are a remnant of the old Kushano-Hephthalite states anyways. These beliefs are best described as Tengri pagan in game terms (though this is obviously not the most accurate).

Still, I do think that placing the Zunbils in the Indian religious group would theoretically be the best approximation given the association of Zun with Hinduism. However, it is not ideal as it would mean they'd be getting some Indian religious features (and I doubt the devs would want to chug through a bunch of code and change it just to make an exception for the Zunbils).

Anothe possinility would be to place them with th Zoroastrians, but this is a less ideal solution in my opinion as, again, the Zunbils were closer to the Indian side of the coin than the Iranian one.

So, ultimately, having them as pagan isn't entirely ideal, but it isn't a bad solution.

 

[mrflibble]

I think they should probably be in the Indian religion group but still kept unreformed at the start. I don't think Heliopolis/Cario should be a holy site since it's so ridiculously far away that it's basically unattainable without already being reformed.

 

[Lord Roivas]

I don't mind them being unreformed pagan, I could imagine the programming problems putting them into the Indian or Zoroastrian category.

The only thing that gets me is that it is rather difficult to reform. Even if you are doing fairly well, you just have very little chance of maintaining and gaining enough MA to reform. You won't get past the Abbasids at this patch with the zero decadence they enjoy.

 

[SlackBladder]

I wouldn't mind seeing them be pre-reformed, but that would create some odd situations, like Zunist 'crusades'. From what I've read they didn't do much in the way of holy wars.

 

[Rozmarzony]

No clue what the hell they were thinking with the Holy Sites, though.

Holy Sites = places, where in history was some sort of sun beliefs.

 

[666ashley777]

Can't they marry with the Indian and Zoroastrian religion groups?

 

[Rognvaldr19]

I think Pagan is the best group for them, and I feel that the holy sites are appropriate too, my reasons being that they were a small time religion that never left Afghanistan, and that the ruling class who were Zunists didn't survive the 8th century. To convince the world you were a proper religion, and to prove to the faithful you were God's (or in this case Zun's) chosen, they'd want some proof in the form of holy sites that were used to practiced Sun worship under the proper sway of Zunism, not to mention a great big kingdom or empire that could properly endorse it.

I also feel that even though they are similar to Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, they are still remarkably different, in that they worship only the sun, whereas Hindu's worship many a deities and the Zoroastrians had a hierarchy of worship and so fit neither category.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I wouldn't mind seeing them be pre-reformed, but that would create some odd situations, like Zunist 'crusades'. From what I've read they didn't do much in the way of holy wars.

The Crusades can easily be disabled for them in the code with one line, so I don't think it'd be that much an issue. Actually now that you mention that I think pre-reformed might be a better option, given that the Zunbils are the remnant of the old Kushan and Hephthalite empires that, while nomadic in origin, eventually became more or less centralized empires.

Holy Sites = places, where in history was some sort of sun beliefs.

Even then the sites don't make sense to me - plenty of places worshipped the sun after all. I think the holy site in Cairo should be moved to somewhere in Central Asia or India, to be honest.

 

[Sir Leningrad]

Nonetheless, you have 3 holy sites pretty near, so it's not complicated to reform, but placing the other 2 in places about wich most of them hadn't even heard of makes no sense. I like that you have to reform it, but I'd like more flavour related events and decisions.

 

[Alcadizzar19]

I don't think they should be in the pagan group from a real life perspective, but they kinda need to be in order to have a Reformation mechanic I think so gameplay should trump historicity here. But can we get rid of that ugly brown UI please? And I do like the fact that they can be reformed, but they do need the ability to loot and loot temples for the same +1% MA as county conquests give since otherwise you need to conquer twenty counties within twenty years plus take all three holy sites. That's almost, almost, prohibitively costly. So some changes need to happen.

 

[hagagaga]

Yeah. Definitely belongs in Indian, maybe with some different mechanics.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I don't think they should be in the pagan group from a real life perspective, but they kinda need to be in order to have a Reformation mechanic I think so gameplay should trump historicity here.

Well, to be honest, they are sort of half-pagan to begin with and mechanics wise they work pretty good as they can fulfill peoples needs to play as two "ancient religions" (simulating Egyptian/Mesopotamian gods) with help of ruler designer and they are probably fairly good help for modders too.

I think Enlils mod has the option to make them part of Indian group upon reformation, not sure if he took the idea from the forum thread in these forums or invented it by himself. One can argue about holy site placement but fact remains that if you manage to snag the three around Afghanistan, you are fairly well set as it is.

 

[hagagaga]

Why not just put them in Indian and give them some Pagan mechanics as well, though?

 

[Alcadizzar19]

Well, to be honest, they are sort of half-pagan to begin with and mechanics wise they work pretty good as they can fulfill peoples needs to play as two "ancient religions" (simulating Egyptian/Mesopotamian gods) with help of ruler designer and they are probably fairly good help for modders too.

I think Enlils mod has the option to make them part of Indian group upon reformation, not sure if he took the idea from the forum thread in these forums or invented it by himself. One can argue about holy site placement but fact remains that if you manage to snag the three around Afghanistan, you are fairly well set as it is.

You still need to pull off twenty county conquests in twenty years, which will require quite a bit of truce breaking and thus prestige cost, not to mention gold. And the line-hopping about pagan-ness is mostly due to how (as far as we know) they were really, really monotheistic about Zun or at least henotheistic. I don't even particularly like how Tengriists are considered pagan except for how (since they aren't a centralized religion) whether or not Tengri is the only god, or just the most important, is up to the individual and the necessary game mechanics to allow for reformation.

 

[Jokolytic]

Them being unreformed actually makes it fun to play and gives you a goal. Besides, a reformed Zunist faith would actually have a coherent holy book and centralized church structure. I just wish there were more Zunist titles than "Sun Guardian". I really want to make a mod for it, but I am waiting until a stable patch makes Charlemagne not an abomination.

 

[DingoWalley]

I still believe that Zunists, instead of being a Special 6th-8th Century religion only in Afghanistan, should be replaced with a General "Indian Pagan" religion, which would represent all Indian, Persian and Afghanistani Religions that aren't like the Dharmic, Islamic or Mazden Faiths, which would include the Zunbils, but it'd also have the Santhal's of Orissa, Several Himalayan provinces, and the Kalash people of Chitral, Pakistan.

 

[Alcadizzar19]

Why not just put them in Indian and give them some Pagan mechanics as well, though?

All the Indian religions are already reformed, with a holy order. Zoroastrianism and its heresies are also already reformed. None of the pagan religions are, and some even cannot be reformed though some have aspects of reformed faiths anyway (lookin at you Hellenism).

 

[hagagaga]

All the Indian religions are already reformed, with a holy order. Zoroastrianism and its heresies are also already reformed. None of the pagan religions are, and some even cannot be reformed though some have aspects of reformed faiths anyway (lookin at you Hellenism).

Why not start it as an unreformed Indian religion? Can't convert to it by Intrigue until it reforms, but it can take converts in a similar manner to how Abrahamic Lords Spiritual can discover heresy.