Increase the chances to see a Qing Empire arise [1.33 Beta]

[PrussicAcid]

Hi there!

After testing the 1.33 Beta patch, I came to the conclusion that Manchu could easily be locked from forming Qing or to simply get out of Manchuria and spread into China. There are several reason for this, but two stand out:

- The first one being the liberation of a big Shun Dynasty when Ming collapses, and this, near Manchu's borders. Manchu cannot DoW them to take the Mandate, nor to unify China. This is why most of the time they will first attack them for Liaoning (which they have cores on), then to enforce tribute, closing the door from pushing south.
- The second reason is the ability of Shun itself to reunify China, strengthened by its size and access to the newly introduced «Chinese Kingdom» reform.

I first thought you could grant to the Manchu the «Chinese Kingdom» government reform. The problem being they would no longer be a horde, thus losing their identity. Not to mention they would hate Korea...



So here I come with a new Tier 1 reform for Manchu which would be a kind of syncretism between «Steppe Nomads» and «Chinese Kingdoms»:

Aisin Gurun / Later Jin Kingdom / Jin State (or any other name fitting well):
A rising Sinized Steppe Kingdom which intends to become the new Celestial Emperor and to defeat the other potential pretenders.

Gorvernment mechanics:
Is Nomad.
Fixed to Kingdom rank.
Has a fixed Dynasty.
Prohibits switching government type.
Can raze provinces.
Allows Horde Idea Group.
Alows Aristocratic Idea Group.
Has access to the Unify China casus belli.

Reform Modifiers:
National Manpower Modifier: +20%
Land Force Limit Modifier: +20%
Looting Speed: +50%
Movement Speed: +20% (or siege ability instead)
Reinforce Cost: -50%
Cavalry to Infantry Ratio: +25%
Years of Separatism: -5
Governing Capacity: +100
Opinion of Chinese Kingdoms: -100
Opinion of Celestial Empire: -100


Thanks for reading!
@Pavía @Ogele

 

[RhoxOS]

Opinion of Celestial Empire: -100

Agree with the general of your ideas. I haven't tested it but I think this part could cause Ming to break tributary and attack Aisin Gioro.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I would like jurchen/manchu to have a government reform not being based on the steppe nomad government, as they were not nomads. A version of the tribal federation would be more fitting

 

[Genomega]

I like this idea, while the same religion/Heathen religions modifiers were more than welcomed this patch, a Celestial Empire and Chinese Kingdom modifier honestly might be more fitting.

In regards to making the Manchu “not a horde” I feel mixed about this, but if Paradox did want to represent them being more Tribal, there does exist a “Raze Province” function that can be used in any government now.

If Manchu isn’t already, I think they should consider Ming and Shun as Historical rivals so they would be inclined to fight them, as the ideal situation is Manchu intervenes during Shun war and gets as many cores as possible. (This is also factoring in Manchu having the proposed ‘Later Jin State’ Government.

 

[PrussicAcid]

Agree with the general of your ideas. I haven't tested it but I think this part could cause Ming to break tributary and attack Aisin Gioro.

Indeed! I didn't notice that threat at first.
This suggestion is to take as a trail to explore. Let's see what this will lead to.

I would like jurchen/manchu to have a government reform not being based on the steppe nomad government, as they were not nomads. A version of the tribal federation would be more fitting

A Tribal Federation taking features from both Chinese Kingdom and Steppe Nomads would also fit well.
The only thing I'm sure about is that the Chinese Kingdom wouldn't fit at all, nor a statu quo.

 

[RhoxOS]

I would like jurchen/manchu to have a government reform not being based on the steppe nomad government, as they were not nomads. A version of the tribal federation would be more fitting

Historically? I think that's more accurate since they migrate like Mengtemu Aisin Gioro did (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ly_Joseon_Era_and_centers_of_Jianzhou-wei.png) and were fragmented into 50 housed clans.

Even the Jianzhou Jurchens, who are the most civilized Jurchens in the Chinese sense, are comprised of at least three clans. Cungšan and Tolo Aisin Gioro is the Left Jianzhou Guard, Fancha Aisin Gioro as the Right Jianzhou Guard, and Li Manzhu is the (Main) Jianzhou Guard.

But in-game? Jianzhou Jurchen is already having a hard fight against Korea and fragmentizing them won't help them to prosper. Fragmentizing must come with some features like HRE intervention in Jurchen areas but I think that is too much of a burden for the devs.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Historically? I think that's more accurate since they migrate like Mengtemu Aisin Gioro did (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ly_Joseon_Era_and_centers_of_Jianzhou-wei.png) and were fragmented into 50 housed clans.

Even the Jianzhou Jurchens, who are the most civilized Jurchens in the Chinese sense, are comprised of at least three clans. Cungšan and Tolo Aisin Gioro is the Left Jianzhou Guard, Fancha Aisin Gioro as the Right Jianzhou Guard, and Li Manzhu is the (Main) Jianzhou Guard.

But in-game? Jianzhou Jurchen is already having a hard fight against Korea and fragmentizing them won't help them to prosper. Fragmentizing must come with some features like HRE intervention in Jurchen areas but I think that is too much of a burden for the devs.

So some migrating doesn't make for nomadism, nomadism is a way of life there the migration process is part of the natural economy, the people of manchuria did not live a nomadic lifestyle, they were sedentary, pastoralists (different from nomads proper) or hunter-gatherers.
Now the game do make for lots of simplifications, nevertheless having jurchens ans steppe nomads never seem right to me.

For your later points I'm a bit ocnfused as to what you think I'm proposing? It seems like you think I suggested breaking the jurchen in further tags, which is not what i did, rather I want jurchen to use a mechanic based on the tribal federation mechanic used by tags like AQ and QQ, in the hands of the AI it probably even be better for the jurchen as they won't suffer the instability that steppe nomads will almost always do

 

[RhoxOS]

For your later points I'm a bit ocnfused as to what you think I'm proposing? It seems like you think I suggested breaking the jurchen in further tags, which is not what i did, rather I want jurchen to use a mechanic based on the tribal federation mechanic used by tags like AQ and QQ, in the hands of the AI it probably even be better for the jurchen as they won't suffer the instability that steppe nomads will almost always do

Hah, I was thinking about Native Federation. Stupid me.

 

[Pavía]

Nice suggestions here. We have a bit tight calendar to take a look on this for 1.33, so maybe can be included in the next one.

 

[PrussicAcid]

Thank you for paying attention to this suggestion!

I could have done better, but if I start to tweak things, I will never stop editing my first post.
Take this as a starting point. I fear that a potent Qing Empire cannot happen naturally right now in the 1.33 Beta.

 

[Aramenian]

Nice suggestions here. We have a bit tight calendar to take a look on this for 1.33, so maybe can be included in the next one.

Could you please bring back shamanism for the Siberian countries?
Of course, some mechanics for this religion would also be useful.
Are you adding religion for Polynesian countries in the next update?

 

[KAOLAWANSUI]

In fact, compared with Manchuria, Shun was more nomadic. As a pure group of roving bandits , they did not have time to establish the corresponding feudal relationship. However, Manchuria was obviously feudal after the reform of Huangtaiji, which was also an important reason why Shun was replaced by Qing Dynasty in one yea In history, shun established the feudal regime in 1643(xiangyang)
If possible, I would prefer Parados to make a tribal confederacy for them to use Cavalry becomes infantry, infantry combat becomes cavalry combat

 

[Me_]

Hm, if one of the problems is Manchu making Shun a tributary it makes me think - perhaps Chinese Kingdoms should be untributable.

If the intention is to ensure that they fight until they all get conquered or one of them conquers the rest and takes the Mandate, perhaps it should not be possible to subjugate them in a way that precludes integration (i.e. it shouldn't be possible to make them into tributaries).

 

[PrussicAcid]

In fact, compared with Manchuria, Shun was more nomadic. As a pure group of roving bandits , they did not have time to establish the corresponding feudal relationship. However, Manchuria was obviously feudal after the reform of Huangtaiji, which was also an important reason why Shun was replaced by Qing Dynasty in one yea In history, shun established the feudal regime in 1643(xiangyang)
If possible, I would prefer Parados to make a tribal confederacy for them to use Cavalry becomes infantry, infantry combat becomes cavalry combat

I don't have a deep knowledge about how Jurchen were actually living and administering their lands. But from what I was able to read the last couple of days, they were more sedentary than I first thought. From there, a kind of Tribal Federation would fit better than the classic Steppe Nomads, indeed, keeping the initial goal of being able to invade China as the Chinese Kingdoms can.

Hm, if one of the problems is Manchu making Shun a tributary it makes me think - perhaps Chinese Kingdoms should be untributable.

If the intention is to ensure that they fight until they all get conquered or one of them conquers the rest and takes the Mandate, perhaps it should not be possible to subjugate them in a way that precludes integration (i.e. it shouldn't be possible to make them into tributaries).

To be honest, Shun is so big and strong in 1.33 that it can't be tributarised by anyone. And this issue is almost more important than the fact that the Manchu are never able to rise. The reason being Ming's tendency to grab too much lands when it tries to tributarise the Oïrats. Which is weird considering we've got a bunch of CBs nerfed in 1.33, exept the "Force Tributary State" one. The result is a big Shun realm and the Manchu unable to be formed.

Spoiler

By the way, the Ming Dynasty Crisis occurs a way too early.

About the tributarisation of Shun by the Manchu, "Opinion of Chinese Kingdoms: -100" is here to prevent it, or to make alliance with other Chinese Kingdoms.

 

[KAOLAWANSUI]

I don't have a deep knowledge about how Jurchen were actually living and administering their lands. But from what I was able to read the last couple of days, they were more sedentary than I first thought. From there, a kind of Tribal Federation would fit better than the classic Steppe Nomads, indeed, keeping the initial goal of being able to invade China as the Chinese Kingdoms can.



To be honest, Shun is so big and strong in 1.33 that it can't be tributarised by anyone. And this issue is almost more important than the fact that the Manchu are never able to rise. The reason being Ming's tendency to grab too much lands when it tries to tributarise the Oïrats. Which is weird considering we've got a bunch of CBs nerfed in 1.33, exept the "Force Tributary State" one. The result is a big Shun realm and the Manchu unable to be formed.

Spoiler

View attachment 807516

View attachment 807517

View attachment 807518

By the way, the Ming Dynasty Crisis occurs a way too early.

About the tributarisation of Shun by the Manchu, "Opinion of Chinese Kingdoms: -100" is here to prevent it, or to make alliance with other Chinese Kingdoms.

Thanks for your reply,
The rise of the Qing dynasty is a miracle to me largely because of the outstanding ability of its various monarchs, not because of manchuria.
The first emperor, Nurhachi, was a military prodigy. He succeeded in crushing the siege of the Ming Dynasty, leaving the Ming dynasty temporarily powerless against manchuria. (Nurhachi himself was an apprentice of Li Chengliang, the former Commander of Liadong In the Ming Dynasty, I think he indulged Nurhachi, most likely to use him as a military honor.)
But In his later years Nurhaci was so confused that he even hated the Han Chinese, which led to the collapse of Manchuria.
But after his death,(Huang taiji) his inherited his position, he is a real wonder, he accepted the Ming (Portuguese training)of the army (powerful artillery) surrender, reform the system of military and political manchuria into a real feudal society (the more traditional Chinese warlords), he also tightened, suppress dourgen three brothers, complete centralization, the west beat Lin sweat (Yuan remnant, Mongolian orthodoxy) He is worth a full 665!
After the death of huang taiji dourgen and hogg, vying for the throne, (fulin)as a compromise to become emperor, then dourgen actively preparing for shanhaiguan, because at this point, Li Zicheng destroyed the last major Ming army (sun chuanting) ready to destroy the Ming dynasty, dourgen must grasp the opportunity, will he beat before article analyzes digestion in north China, otherwise clear will be emerging Chinese regime demise, he does After that, Li Zicheng was defeated at Shanhaiguan, and Shanxi was betrayed by a traitor. Qing army easily reached Shaanxi, Li Zicheng fought with him at Tongguan, but because of the previous losses, shun army was inferior in quality, he finally retreated.
Li zicheng from shaanxi, he fled (hubei) because he is used to flow, dare not guarding city he intends to travel to the southeast, eliminate the Ming, to against the qing dynasty, the qing faster than he is, however, not stop chasing him, li gave up guard his core (xiangyang, jingzhou) In Jiangxi, Li Zicheng was killed by a landlord, he after the death of li (li zicheng ran Li Guo gathered the rest of the Shun army in an attempt to collect Jingzhou, and his deputy Liu Tichun went to collect Xiangyang (who was allied with the Southern Ming army in the meantime). But the Southern Ming army betrayed them and the Qing army came from behind them He remained active as an army until 1664. Lilaiheng, the last grandnephew of Li Zicheng, was the conqueror of the Ming Dynasty, but became the last Ming army on the mainland (after the defeat of jingzhou, Shun completely became a vassal of the Ming Dynasty).

 

[KAOLAWANSUI]

Li Guo is li Zicheng's nephew, Li Laiheng is Li Guo's godson, Li Zicheng wiped out the Ming Dynasty, but his descendants for the Ming dynasty drain the last drop of blood. Isn't it wonderful?
This is the general process in which the Qing dynasty replaced shun. Shun's suppression of landlords and the Qing's tolerance to landlords led to different results. Shun was caused by the collapse of the Ming military and the bankruptcy of the military households. In the late Ming dynasty,It's probably the Northwest Ming army of the Shun versus the northeast Ming army of the Qing