HoD DD 4 – Wars and The Military

[Fryslan0109]

I'd like the ability to recruit a player-defined army, say 10 inf, 2 cav, and 8 art, to rally at a player-set province (not necessarily the nearest) and be constructed in the most time efficient manner from provinces that can train (judged by an estimated time of completion).

I realize that's a little much to ask for, but as certain countries I find myself building only one stack at a time (while the AI steams ahead - particularly the case in mods like APD where army sizes increase dramatically), simply because if I try to build more, they only head towards the nearest rally point and mess brigade ratios up. Rather than that, I'd like to be able to tell my virtual army advisor "Hey, build two of these 60k man armies and place them in Provinces A and B as soon as possible." If such a mechanic would enter the game, I would also hope for the destination province to be redirectable mid-construction, if, for instance, an unexpected war should occur and the rally point was no longer feasible.

 

[Nicolas I]

Guards are an elite unit that is strong on the offensive but weak on the defensive, making all-Guards armies impractical.

Why an elite unit would be weak on defensive ?

I understand that it's solely for game balance purposes, but that can be made another way (if they want to avoid all-guards armies and have something like specialized assault brigades).

1) Keep infantry as basic regulars
2) Add heavy infantry or assault troops or shock troops or another name fitting for units "strong on the offensive but weak on the defensive".
3) Keep guards as elite units and make them even more expensive and/or put a cap on numbers like the ratio for "unique units" in Hoi3-TFH.

 

[gradenko_2000]

I'd like to suggest that, to cut down on name-confusion and to help players figure out how to assemble their armies, that the devs include a description of the unit's capabilities and intended use when you mouse over that particular tab in the Army Construction screen.

 

[Fryslan0109]

3) Keep guards as elite units and make them even more expensive and/or put a cap on numbers like the ratio for "unique units" in Hoi3-TFH.

This - always wondered why the number of guards wasn't capped already

 

[grommile]

And the Revolution of 1905, wouldn't take place until after the Russo-Japanese War, in fact it was one of the reasons for its outbreak.

The Battle of Tsushima was at the tail-end of May 1905. The strikes started in December 1904 and Bloody Sunday was in January 1905. It just got worse after Tsushima.

 

[Alerias]

This is interesting. I didnt read the whole thread but: any chance these new systems might be used in part or whole in Eu4?

Eu4 has wargoals even if we dont know all the details yet, and it would make sense to use this WS system there too.

 

[cheesesalsa]

Ok I have a question about the new Liberate Nation Wargoal. Let's say I'm Haiti (any country would work but lets say Haiti) and I'm at war with Austria and Russia. Naturally my numerically and technologically superior Haitian army has crushed both my enemies and I have the liberate nation of Poland casus belli. Because Poland has cores in both countries, would they both liberate their cores. Or would only the one I targeted with the wargoal be forced to liberate its Polish cores?

 

[Fryslan0109]

My guess is the latter, but if you added the war goal for each enemy and peaced them out one at a time, then you'd probably get the desired result, albeit with more infamy.

 

[vertinox]

Yeah I finally got around to buying AHD this weekend. As Japan I could have really used the new warscore system in getting territories as fighting colonial wars were impossible without invading the countries homeland.

Also Manchuria seems to need 128 warscore to take from China. Seems like an impossible task for Japan to get that territory as they did historically.

 

[Chief of Staff]

It would be interesting and perhaps useful if you can sell or buy military units or even tech from certain nations that has better units/tech than you. It would not be cheap, however. The way this works, it would be stimulating the exchanges of tech and equipment between nations as it has happened in 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. If you have higher tech and better experienced units than certain countries, you can sell them to countries, especially your strategic allies, you want to strengthen against rivals you find to be threats to your country's security. For example, as Britain, you might want to sell tech and units to Ottoman Empire and Persia to strengthen them against Russia as bulwarks to slow down or contain Russia's expansion that might threaten both your routes to India and your crown jewel of India itself. How this would be regulated is up to Paradox to prevent overuse and abuse of this. But you certainly would want to find ways to help improve your strategic allies' power to resist any countries you consider to be security threats. Allying with such allies might not be enough alone to help resist them.

More examples of this in history would be French training of Egyptian military before 1840s, British training of Japanese military whom they saw as useful counterweight against Russia, U.S. military aid to Israel and various nations in Asia at times as counterweight first to Soviet Union in past and China today.

I also want to add that your military aid other than participation in war as ally can have dangerous implications, as it can make them Great Power AND make them potentially dangerous rival, as in case of Japan. For example, Britain's aid to Japan prove to be a dangerous gamble in long-term, as Britain was eventually forced to choose between U.S. and Japan as ally, as allying with one of them could entangle Britain in a war against another. Britain eventually ended alliance with Japan in favor of U.S. because of U.S. proximity to Europe, where their real security lays in. It would prove to be a cruel irony, as it turned out with Japan's attacks on U.S. and Britain in WW2.

That concludes my case for those types of military aid.

 

[unmerged(624310)]

Yeah I finally got around to buying AHD this weekend. As Japan I could have really used the new warscore system in getting territories as fighting colonial wars were impossible without invading the countries homeland.

Also Manchuria seems to need 128 warscore to take from China. Seems like an impossible task for Japan to get that territory as they did historically.

Warscore required will drop drastically once you've actually occupied Manchuria. To half if memory serves.

 

[Fryslan0109]

It would be interesting and perhaps useful if you can sell or buy military units or even tech from certain nations that has better units/tech than you.

I would love to be able to lease an army to a power to shore it up against a more powerful foe, a la HOI3... I'm not sure how appropriate this is in the 19th century, but it certainly happened at the end point of the game, thinking of various intervention forces in the Spanish Civil War. Same goes for tech. - too many times I consider releasing a satellite for lack of willingness to rule an area directly, but thinking of their resulting tech difference turns me off of that.

 

[KadetLuka]

Everything looks awesome except for the changes to the guards. Doesn't make any sense that they would be great for attack, but bad at defense. I assume this is an attempt to turn them into storm troopers. I would have preferred some other form of mechanism if the sole goal was to prevent all guard armies. I actually like the Vic 1 system, that had inf, regulars and guards. Made sense that the standing army be composed of regulars and guards, while the mobilized troops were plain infantry.

I think the POP-demand mod is for you, among many other great things it does just that, make 3 types of infantry, one which represents conscripted/drafted/mobilised infantry, one which represents regular (like professional infantry) and one for guards. I think that this would be a great addition to HoD, at the very least i do not agree with making guards week at defense, i understant the wish to prevent all guard armies but i think another solution should be found (make them more expensive, or limit the number of guard units recruitable in relation to number of officer or soldier pops). But at the end of the day, if you dont like everything new, the major mods wont take too long to 'adapt' to the expansion and they can really change the game more to your liking if you have some things (like inf types) you find a tad annoying, for me its sort of realism and logic i look for, i find the POP demand mod to be very good for me.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

I would love to be able to lease an army to a power to shore it up against a more powerful foe, a la HOI3... I'm not sure how appropriate this is in the 19th century, but it certainly happened at the end point of the game, thinking of various intervention forces in the Spanish Civil War. Same goes for tech. - too many times I consider reeasing a satellite for lack of willingness to rule an area directly, but thinking of their resulting tech difference turns me off of that.

Oh, it certainly happened. Have a look at this partial list of ships that participated in the Battle of Yalu River:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Yalu_River_(1894)

Japan

Yoshino (4150 t, 20 knots (37 km/h), 4-6, 8-4.7) (Kawara Yōichi, RA Tsuboi Kōzō) - VICKERS-ARMSTRONG, ELSWICK, UK
Takachiho (3650t, 15 knots (28 km/h), 2-10.2, 6-6) (Nomura Tadashi) - VICKERS-ARMSTRONG, ELSWICK, UK
Naniwa (3650 t, 16 knots (30 km/h), 2-10.2, 6-6) (Tōgō Heihachirō) - VICKERS-ARMSTRONG, ELSWICK, UK
Akitsushima (3150 t, 16 knots (30 km/h), 4-6, 6-4.7) (Kamimura Hikonojō) - YOKOSUKA ARSENAL under French influence
Matsushima (4277 t, 14 knots (26 km/h), 1-12.6, 12-4.7) (Omoto and Dewa Shigetō, VA Itoh Sukeyuki) - Damaged - SOCIETE NOUVELLE DES FORGES, LA-SEYNE-SUR-MER, FRANCE
Chiyoda (2450 t, ?kts, 10-4.7) (Uchida Masatoshi) - JOHN BROWN, GLASGOW
Itsukushima (4277t, 14 knots (26 km/h), 1-12.6, 11-4.7) (Arima Shinichi) - SOCIETE NOUVELLE DES FORGES, LA-SEYNE-SUR-MER, FRANCE
Hashidate (as Itsukushima) (Hidaka Sōnojō) - YOKOSUKA ARSENAL under French influence
Fusō (3718t, 11 knots (20 km/h), 4-9.4, 2-6) (Arai) - SAMUDA BROTHERS, CUBITT TOWN, UK
Hiei (2200t, 9 knots (17 km/h), 9-6) (Sakurai Kikunojō) - Damaged - PEMBROKE DOCK, UK

China (Beiyang Fleet)

Yangwei (1350t, 6 knots (11 km/h), 2-10.2, 4-4.7) - ARMSTRONG-WHITWORTH, ELSWICK, UK
Chaoyong (1350 t, 15 knots (28 km/h), 2-10, 4-4.7) - ARMSTRONG-WHITWORTH, ELSWICK, UK
Jingyuan (2850 t, 14 knots (26 km/h), 3-8.2, 2-6) - STETTINER AG VULKAN, GERMANY
Laiyuan (2830 t, 10 knots (19 km/h), 2-8.2, 2-6) - Damaged - STETTINER AG VULKAN, GERMANY
Zhenyuan (7430t, 12 knots (22 km/h), 4-12, 2-5.9) (Lin Taizeng) - STETTINER AG VULKAN, GERMANY
Dingyuan (flag, 7355t, 15.4 knots (29 km/h), 4-12, 2-5.9) (Admiral Ding Ruchang, Liu Buchan) - STETTINER AG VULKAN, GERMANY
Zhiyuen (2300 t, 15 knots (28 km/h), 3-8.2, 2-6) (Tang) - Sunk - ARMSTRONG-WHITWORTH, ELSWICK, UK
Jiyuan (2355t, 15 knots (28 km/h), 2-8.2, 1-6) (Fang Boqian) - STETTINER AG VULKAN, GERMANY
Pingyuan (2100 t, 6/7 knots, 1-10.2, 2-6) - FUZHOU ARSENAL, MAWEI ('the first Chinese-built ironclad')

 

[Phalanxia]

Those weren't leased ships though, they were sold.

 

[unmerged(548535)]

I love what you are doing for Victoria 2.

You definitively have my money on this extention ! Good job !

 

[Fryslan0109]

Oh, it certainly happened. Have a look at this partial list of ships that participated in the Battle of Yalu River:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Yalu_River_(1894)

Oh, I certainly knew about ships, particularly with Japan and China - I was thinking more along the lines of land forces.

 

[FelixCress]

1. Will the defeated units finnaly be unable to retreat into enemy territory, as it was the case in Vic1?

2. Will the forts finnaly stop working as medieval castles by increasing time of the occupation? The idea of EMPTY fortifications increasing the occupation time is ridiculous.

3. Will AI form fronts?

Dear Devs, any chance to have some reply to that?

 

[Beagá]

Why would it form fronts? So that you can move a 100k stack to crush a 30k one while the others watch?

What it needs to do is use generals according to their capacities and don´t fall into obvious baits. Like attacking +6 def generals in bad terrain just because their stack is 30k and mine 9k. Even if I have a 30k stack not far away... Offensive generals attack and defensive generals defend.

As a final recomendation I would suggest scorched earth. So that baiting stacks into your territory to pick them one by one isn´t that painless to do - as long as there are stacks in your territory, the longer they stay there, the bigger malus they should give to RGO output after they leave. For example, suppose a 30k stack is occupying a province. Each day it is there it creates a 0.30% malus to RGO output (0.01 times 1k soldiers), so if it stays 30 days there it will give a 9% RGO malus that would remain for a few months. Suddenly, baiting becomes a way worse tactic to use.

The reasoning for a progressive malus is obvious - else we would see player cavalry stacks running like retards in France :glare:

 

[FelixCress]

Why would it form fronts? So that you can move a 100k stack to crush a 30k one while the others watch?
:

:banging head against a wall: