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Well, serial, HoI3 is a competitive game, because it pits the players, human or AI, against each other on more or less equal grounds. A (single-player) RPG doesnt do that. There, there is a very clear distinction between the player and the rest of the world - and that rest of the world often even adepts to the player´s strength in modern RPGs. In comparison, this would be like the HoI3-AI seeing you build no tanks and thus build none either (so to not make it too hard for you to progress with the story). The worst thing in an RPG can have game-design-wise (by modern philosophy) is points where you might get stuck and find yourself unable to progress with the story - in a strategy game, this merely equals a lost game - something that needs to be in any strategy game. Thus, the later is competitive, the former isnt. And thus, an optional advantage in the former is truely optional, while in a competitive game, it can become mandatory.

Granted, in SP this is mostly a matter of personal preference, and since HoI3-AI can not real keep up with the scope of the game, it seems, the whole affair gets closer to the RPG-realm, again, where optional advantages remain optional. But in MP, or at a sufficiently high difficulty level, micro-ing can become mandoatory on any level it is avaiable. If fiddling with the mission-priority list gives an advantage, and your equally strong enemy utilitzes it, you´ll have to, too. POP-spliting in VIC is an excellent example: It´s micro-hell, and i´d rather not do it (and dont in SP-games), but if your human buddy starts doing it, there is little choice for you. The game will take twice as long because of it, and half of it is splitting pops, but if you want to win (competition!), or even get close to it, there simply is no other way (and since this was 2-player, i couldnt ´pass´ a house-rule against it).

So, if we´d have something like mission priotity lists, i´d prefer them to be pre-defined and easily choosable from a not-too-long list, so that it is done with in a click or two, but doesnt resemble something like the Dragon Age tactics screen, where you can literally spend hours fine-tuning your party (for every fight). Opportunity makes micro-hell!

EDIT: In general, i devide games into these two camps: ´competive´ and ´story-driven´. Most games fit in one of the two, really good ones (in tendency) in both and really odd ones in none. Strategy games are competive (but sometimes also have a story-element - actually HoI3 does), point-and-click adventures are clearly story-driven. Most games are competive, though, and difficulty or AI-quality is not a qualifier for this. A game of chess is competive, no matter how lousy your opponent.
 
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Well, pretty much every company gives patches out for free does this mean they do not care about money?

No it means they fix problems they missed during development. Very few of these patches add new complex features to the game (like most of the suggestions here are).

That is where the name comes from, they "patch" the holes.

If Paradox were to add new features with each patch (with the same time allocation that means instead of fixing bugs), then these new features would also create equally many new bugs, adding to the ones that never got fixed and resulting in a unplayable mayhem.
 
The only reason any company gives out patches for free is to create a loyal customer base (who will buy the product they put out later). I think maybe you misunderstood my post.

What I am saying is PDOX (or any company for that matter) has a formula, literal or figurative. It says if a job takes X amount of manhours (patching a game), it should make Y amount of profit (loyal, repeat customers). Yes they give out patches for free, but what would be the cost in lost repeat customers if they did not fix their games?

Bottom line: they likely will not put in even close to this amount of work for a patch.

Well thats pretty much what Im saying
I do not negate that is for building loyal customers, my point is that, the ultimate effect is more income and that company puts out patches because it is cost-effective, and that its standard practice.


No it means they fix problems they missed during development. Very few of these patches add new complex features to the game (like most of the suggestions here are).

That is where the name comes from, they "patch" the holes.

Yes, and would they do it if it had (hypothetically) no effect on their present and future income?



Well, serial, HoI3 is a competitive game, because it pits the players, human or AI, against each other on more or less equal grounds.

So pretty much every game is competitive one.
But HoI is in the lower end, in therms of popularity thus probably also its level (less players = less skilled player). Also it is not considered competitive in therms that there are no ligs at this game.


So, if we´d have something like mission priotity lists, i´d prefer them to be pre-defined and easily choosable from a not-too-long list, so that it is done with in a click or two, but doesnt resemble something like the Dragon Age tactics screen, where you can literally spend hours fine-tuning your party (for every fight). Opportunity makes micro-hell!

My idea for mission priority would be a the a single default mission, and if the player chooses he can just click ADD, and add other missions (lower in priority), and if he wishes it can be only 2 (main, and secondary).
Even if this feature would be poorly executed, then I think it still would be better to loose 2 minutes on adjusting a clumsy menu, and then leaving it be for half an hour or so, while the air fleet is taken care of.


EDIT: In general, i devide games into these two camps: ´competive´ and ´story-driven´. Most games fit in one of the two, really good ones (in tendency) in both and really odd ones in none. Strategy games are competive (but sometimes also have a story-element - actually HoI3 does), point-and-click adventures are clearly story-driven. Most games are competive, though, and difficulty or AI-quality is not a qualifier for this. A game of chess is competive, no matter how lousy your opponent.

Well most games fit into the story driven category, and they have an mutiplayer in with without a doubt players are put against each other so they are also competitive.
Some strategies may not have a story, but they are not the most competitive titles, there are hardly any ligs and tournaments in game, and most of them die quickly. There are no (or almost no) strategy games specially designed for multiplayer, like there are FPS's (e.g. Battlefield series).
What kind of criteria do you use that make you state that strategies are (almost exclusively) so competitive?

The whole C&C series, Total War series, Age of Empires (and similar games made by Microsoft), Blizzards, Warcraft and Starcraft, Relics, DoW, and CoH.
Those are all strategies with did put heavy emphasis on singiel player, and most where story driven (except Total War but if you count in HoI than i could suppose it was in a way also story driven). Almost all of them had multi-player, but even the famous Starcraft I and Warcraft III, are only played by a few and by comparison game like Counter-Strike is still one of the top played games today.
 
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It´s of no import at all, wether a game is played against a human or an AI (or the number thereof, as long as it is at least 1), for defining it as competetive. See, you have games, where you go through a story primarily, on the one hand. Those are adventures and SP-RPGs mostly. You dont play it against anything. You solve riddles, explore and maybe even do battle - but those battles are not against an equal opponent (not another ´player´, AI or human). And then there is competitive games: any sport game is competitive. Wether you play Winter Games alone at home, for the records, or are a true participant of the real olympics - you compare your achievements with those of others or your own past ones.

A game doesnt have to be popular to be competitive either. There dont have to be leagues or ladder games for games to be competitive.

But, yeah, i guess, i simplyfied things a tad too much about strategy games. Those of this kind, where you can say that you have ´completed´ them after one play-through mostly are in fact story-driven to a greater part. It´s just that i rarely play those. It´s the kind of strategy game you get walkthroughs for. Move to point X, shoot at Y, buy Z - in that order and you will win (see the whole story). When i played Age of Empires, i always played the random scenarios. With those campaigns, i always just felt like in a try&error sort of riddle. They are either frustrating in that you have to be very cunning about getting everything right the way you are supposed to in the first try, or they are easy to absurdity (in ´World in Conflict´ i had no idea what i was doing, it just seemed easy non-the-less) In those games, the strategy part is what a riddle is for the adventure. You do it to advance in the story. Usually, you are almost guranteed to succeed. Either by endless retries (always facing the same situation) or the game itself makes sure of it. Because otherwise, you dont loose a game, you loosethe game - the whole content from there on. Exchangablitly of scenario seems to be a qualifier for compeitiveness of a game. In a story-game you´d talk about the battle of XY, while in a competitive-game you are more likely to talk about a battle that happenend to take place there and then, not because it was part of the story and you were to pass it at some point or be dead by now, but because the game produced the story by the player´s actions leading there, without perhaps anyone wanting that in particular.

I think it can be said, that there are games, in which the competition defines the story, and others, where the story defines the competition. Maybe this puts it better.

This actually goes on the same tangent as the whole historic/sandbox debate of HoI3 - as it hasnt really defined its point in that dimension. Story defining the competition means: There will be WW2 - it will be germany in the axis, against the UK+France in the allies. Italy may join the axis, but not the allies (say), so does Japan, the soviets wont ally with germany, and so on (lex lothos). Competition defining story means: The nations (players) will do whatever they think will make them more powerful, regardless of the ´true´ story. This is the issue of HoI3 - it´s damn hard to make a game competitve (again: not talking challanging AI here) and have it tell a story (that makes sense) at the same time. The way to make it work, is to realize the tension between the two: Where there is story, there is less competition and vice versa. So why not make the story solid in the beginning, where competition is not that tense yet, but gradually release it into free competition with an ´open´ story (meaning none, except that created within the game by the actions of the players), as things heat up? To an extent, the game already follows this line, as events and decisions are mostly in the early period (those in the later have actually gotten so little attention, that they are almost uniformly broken - think surrender events) and in general the players are more restricted before they go to war, rather than later. There will be ´Danzig or War´ (with AI-led germany at least) - but will there be the(!) battle of britain, too? Or will there be a battle of britain in 1943?
 
The way to make it work, is to realize the tension between the two: Where there is story, there is less competition and vice versa
That's not always true. Many RPGs have challenging "boss" fights and if you have a poorly developed character, you will get your ass kicked. Actually, one of the reasons for level-scaling is to allow any player to have a chance to play a challenging (but not impossible to beat) game, although many think (including myself) that it defeats the purpose of PC development. However, elements of 'level scaling' could benefit many games as they can make balancing easier in some "critical" cases. That's why I think AI should get help in those cases when it fails badly very early on, destroying all the fun. IMO game should be challenging no matter what tactics the player uses - it should just be a different experience, give different results, but CHALLENGE is always a crucial factor, not the victory itself - the more challenging the game, the more satisfying the conclusion, even if we know that we will win eventually (it's not that you lose often in HOI games against the AI).

(...) you compare your achievements with those of others or your own past ones.
People do just that in all sorts of games. You can always complete the task faster, beat your opponents quicker etc.
 
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I'm not sure are you giving me the proper definition of competitive gaming, or is it your own, but it makes sense.

However i wanted to end this off-topic.
Very long posts on matter completely unrelated with the topic.


ATTENTION: I'm thinking about ADDING INTERESTING IDEAS POSTED BY USERS IN THIS THREAD.
I'm working on another thread right now (about technology) and I may take me sometime before it add them.
Meanwhile I want to ask you would you rather for me to add them into the opening post, or just reference and location?

However there is a condition:
I will post sensible ideas, but their authors have to specify at least two ideas in my thread they like and one they don't like and why.
A bit of your time (posting idea, replying) for a bit of my time (adding to thread, commenting, replying).
 
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If it's of any interest to you, during the beta I created a pdf of observations and game mechanic type things. It's far more broad than your analysis serial, but I think that we're thinking along the same lines.

[link removed]
 
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I think you might be sh!t out of luck getting any of these ideas implemented in the near future.
Going by King's posts, the devs are all away on holiday watching Iron Maiden and getting drunk etc, but they have hired some more devs.
I wonder if one of them will be working in software development quality assurance?
 
Excellent review. Seeing that I get extremely lost when trying to organize armies and often times start a new campaign rather than dividing up an army any easier army organization would be nice.
 
If it's of any interest to you, during the beta I created a pdf of observations and game mechanic type things. It's far more broad than your analysis serial, but I think that we're thinking along the same lines.

Clausewitz engine analysis

I cant access it, maybe you could upload it somewhere?
 
I would like to see a "Find" button for two things.

1) a unit w/o a general... very useful for USSR. Of course your idea of auto assign / promotion / re-assign would fix the need for this.

2) A find & find next "[insert unit type here]" to help finding all the units that you can upgrade.

Speaking of upgrading units. If you upgrade a unit and that Division just so happens to be engaged in combat when it's done. Instead of throwing it in the generic deploy que. How about waiting for the combat to end then putting it where it belongs?
 
Just wanted to thank you Serial for all that work. There's nothing like the HOI forums. 400,271 posts and counting.
 
I would like to see a "Find" button for two things.

1) a unit w/o a general... very useful for USSR. Of course your idea of auto assign / promotion / re-assign would fix the need for this.


If you select all the units (army/air/or navy) click the X of all unites with a general, you will be left with just the unites without generals. you can then click the space where the generals name would be and insert one.

then work you way down the list. quickest way I have found to combat units without a leader.
 
this is terrific work my friend, I think your ideas in 9.1 and 9.2 are great, and I thought this is the kind of extra stuff that PI was going to include in semper fi, turned out it was just a handful of battle events that often happen four years ahead of time (Unsuccessful Naval Battle of Ushant anyone?). I hope that Paradox gives you a job after this post, because wow, you could make this game really shine, and clearly your talents would help them alot.
 
I must commend you on your excellent work! I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you say, and if your suggestions were to be implemented HOI III would be hell of alot less tedious.

I'm playing as Germany atm and the USSR are my main enemy. It is truly an atrocious mess at the eastern front with hundreds upon hundreds of divisions and airwings that needs to be organized all the time.
 
5.2 STRATEGIC BOMBING WARRNING (INTERFACE, INTEL, COMBAT, STRATEGIC BOMBINGS)

Before Semper Fi, strategic bombings were a real pain in the ass, because there was no indication of where those bombs hit. Now it’s a lot easier, however I have some suggestions.

5.2.1 Bomber path anticipation
Instead of showing where the bombs did hit, the player should be informed when enemy strategic bombers enter his territory (for example over Amsterdam), and their anticipated target (victory points, areas of heavy industry, previous targets). Considering that they will fly in a straight line, and there limited range, in most cases it would be easy to do. This could also be set by probability e.g. 20% for intelligence giving the right province and, 80% for one in the path of the bombers. That way the player would have an actual chance of stopping them, of even better the AI would do it for him.

5.2.2 AI intercepting control
Now I don’t know much about algorithms, but I think making this system automatic should not be much of a problem. The AI would react accordingly by crossing their path (probably will intercept even if intel was wrong about the precise destination, reducing the strength of the raiders, but also reducing its own effectiveness, and taking heavier losses), or waiting at the target (but i think i got a bit too much into the combat, while talking about the interface)

5.2.3 Air intercept group
The “air intercept group” would represent fighters designated to the purpose of intercepting enemy aircraft involved in strategic bombings. They could be (ideally) controlled by the AI, but also the player (if he wished it so). It would be divided into a district, or districts defined by the player.

First of all excellent post! I'm new to HoI but I would like to comment on this part of the game because I think it can be improved. Note; that I am new to this game so some features may be actually in the game already but I have not found it yet :D

Beside actually seeing the enemy bombers flying over your land, a strategic bombing log would be sufficient; showing the date and which industrial region was bombed. Knowing where the bombing was it is up to the player to decide how to defend against strategic bombing.

From an attacking point of view the bombers should be able to way point their way to the target (This may be already doable). In the early years of the war the British flew over the North Sea and entered Germany between Emden and Wilemshaven. Firstly because The Netherlands was neutral and later because there was less chance of detection and less Flak.

Off course the defender will fortify that route with Flak and interceptors. However the attacking player and AI should be able to find the route with the least resistance and way point a new route to the target; for example over Holland, leaving the interceptors empty handed. This will give both the attacker and defender new and strategic decisions.

However my major point here is radar and it's role for the defender. Radar was closely used by the defending interceptors. I would like to see when an enemy gets into the radius of the radar it will send the interceptors to, well you know, intercept! This can be perfectly set to AI control. Maybe add a mission "intercept in radar radius". More radar build in the province will increase the radius and also the chance of the interceptors finding the target faster.

Flak can be improved as well. In contrary to what many think Flak was not used to destroy bombers, though that was a welcomed effect. This role of destroying was left for the fighters. Flak's strategic purpose was to deny airspace over the target. Imagine they wouldn't fly directly into a cloud of Flak bursts but went high enough just to stay out of effective range of the cannons. The higher they were and therefore further away from the target the less accurate the bomb drops were. So instead of damaging the bombers the accuracy of those bombers should be decreased.

In short:
- Give the attacking bombers the option to way point their way. Maybe give them the option to use a different route after each run.
- Link the defending interceptors with radar.
- Remove or heavily decrease the damage done by Flak but instead decrease the hit chance by bombers.
 
Those are all great ideas, Paradox should offer you the job for interface design ;)
 
If you select all the units (army/air/or navy) click the X of all unites with a general, you will be left with just the unites without generals. you can then click the space where the generals name would be and insert one.

then work you way down the list. quickest way I have found to combat units without a leader.

Yeah that sounds so efficient :wacko:

I didn't say it wasn't possible. Just prefer an easier method is all.