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I've never seen China civilized without the help of a human player.

Ahh... That's true. Of course some mines should have room for way more people than other mines, don't know how that will work out in the game though. Maybe every RGO could have some sort of size (in proportion to province size or something?) that can be increased via infrastructure and techs?
 
More natural emigration! In general, people in 19th century were pretty poor. In Victoria POP emigration has to be self-made (like setting tax to 95% and converting POPs to farmers to flood the RGOs etc).

I hope that in Victoria 2 POPs would migrate continuously, the percentage depending on economic situation.

And perhaps to the point were you sometimes have to struggle to keep your population in home country (not always the other way around)? For example when emigration percentage exceeds population growth.
 
Shipping of all sales/purchases to overseas countries making it possible to blockade a nation such as during the ACW and WW1 and making it possible to sink such shipping during unrestricted submarine warfare which by the way should be something you should be able to declare severely raising the efficiency of your subs and severely hurting your relations.

Being able to send specific resources to other nations such as guns to a country in war

Being able to purchase ships from more advanced nations such as japan and china did extensively

Province based supplies making it possible to starve a unit hiding in that mountain/forest province which used to be the ultimate method to win any war with anyone against anybody (retreat to such a province and let the enemy take the rest of your nation and then just sit in the mountain and watch attrition raise his war weariness until he would agree to white peace). Units out of supply should start to drain limited supplies depending on infrastructure, fortress level and pop density of the province before losing manpower and organization just like in HOI2

Culture based bonuses to units, inuit units should be better in arctic conditions and berbers should have the advantage in desert etc.
 
Petition for a Non-Screwed over China And Better Unciv system

I am all for a system that can adequately reflect China's political and economic situation in the early 19th century but I would also like to see an engine capable of letting you as the player guide China to Great Power status through intelligent decision making and good policies! China became a backwater in real life becomes the Imperial Government and its bureaucracy couldn't manage the country, were saw as foreginers by most of their own people, had no vision and didn't forsee how the industrial revolution would irreversibly change the way the world dynamic works.

Now I perfectly understand that "modernization" for China shouldn't be easy, oh no, it should be challenging both in singleplayer and in multiplayer so the work is worth all the effort but heres my problem with it as now in Ricky in multiplayer.

You could make all the good decisions in the world but it all comes to nougt if the people you play with are dicks and use "tricks" and take advantage of the engine rather then legitimately stopping you.

Example, to "Civilize" in Victoria you had to have a certain arbitrary number of points in prestige, military power and economy. 100, 25, and 75 respectively, this was bullcrud.

All a country had to do was demand a humiliating peace in a war and it would become utterly impossible to civilize, ever and if they really want to be jerks there was infact an event chain that the UK player could easily screw you over and prevent you from gaining any technologies (I had the fortune that the person was AI'ed that session thus UK dowed me in 2nd Opium War getting my techs).

Military power was also bull as getting 25 military power is impossible for ANYONE other then China and forcing people to rely on expititionary forces help from other nations SHOULD NOT be forced on people and most games have rules against it anyways and irregulars tended to dessert faster then i could build them.

So prestige and military requirements for civilizing are bull, as essentially only China can get them without events and ANY uncivilized country with a decent amount of people and good resources should be able to civilized with good decision making and stability.

Basically we should take out the luck and the or any reliance on the other players or AI on the process to civilize but instead be fully based on your own efforts.

The only real determination in my opinion of what constitutes your "Great Power ness" is Industrial output something China had in spads with the decentralized manufacturing they did and led the world in in GDP until UK got the steam engine so lets make it industrial factory steam and steel industrial output!

Coupled with a scoring system for military power as well, but rather then make it so Uncivs only build crap lets have the ability to actually "buy" arms from the market and actually train and build "modern" divisions and brigades and have them score 1-1 and not 25-1 was irregulars and 10-1 as "regular-native" divisions as long as you have the tech.



So I geuss this leads to my next point, that in general we need a better system to separate uncivs from civs, rather then make it an actual ingame divider "civ/unciv" lets actually make it so an "Uncivilized" nation in the previous sense is simply a nation with much less tech, and much worse economies then the Europeans and much more unstable and also corrupt.

What makes a "Civilized" nation different from a Uncivilized?

1. Corruption. "Uncivilized" henceforth referred to as simply "UnCiv" had almost has a rule much more corruption and graft on both GDP per capita and in bulk amounts even if the country made alot of income in say trade by exporting raw materials to Europe the central government probably only gets a pittance of it after all the hands it goes through, combine this with "unrest" a bit in the sense that if you have a high corruption value, to lower it will always spike dissent/unrest, so each time you manage to lower corruption by say causing heads to roll, firing governors, sacking generals, executing criminals etc. Could be a slider, could be a recurring "decision" or whatever point is lowering corruption value (which should have a daily "gain" as well) should raise unrest when its really high but once you have it low should cause virtually no unrest, so the more you do it the easier itll eventually get, but at the very beginning should be a pain in the ass and the large the country the larger the pain.

Like Crime Fighting in Ricky but actually has a purpose and not just somehting you can ignore.

2. Unrest, your revolt risk but more regional, should be calculated province/state to province/state for example if your oppressing one state it shouldn't really cause a ruckus to the one nextdoor unless you have freedom of press or something. For "UnCivs" this should be "low" in the central regions but high in places of mixed ethnics and at the periphery but should climb high really fats if your actively crushing corruption, switching to ConMon/Republic should help lower both of the above.

3. Technology, all "Uncivs" in the traditional sense are backwards China may have invented alot, but they never developed any of it to practical purposes for the masses or industry and were by before 1800 outclasses by England so simply speaking only start these nations with the technologies suitable for their development.

Basically China could probably field a Infantry Regiment in 36 but produced no small arms and didn't purchase any from England when it was offered. So instead lets have it so if I do decide to produce Small arms rather then produce a regiment of infantry without firepower click a box saying "modern" and produce a normal infantry division, lets use the Hoi3 system of brigades and having the first brigade China or anyone other unciv can build is "Swordsman & Spearman" Brigade but with the Musketeer tech and if you have small arms handy you can now instead upgrade/build new brigades of normal infantry and set training.

Have research same as before, funding education! But remember even in ricky full research for China was expensive, it was cheaper when "unciv" so lets take that out and have somekind of modifier for number of Schools and Universities open, like "Practical" research in Hoi3, obviously there should be a modifier, China did not have that many Universities and even less that were comparable in scope and funding as Cambridge or Harvard.

So China and other Uncivs will need then tobuild universities! The less you have the more expensive and the longer it will take to gain techs on your own, obviously there should be some osmossos, tech knowledge spreads so there should be a bonus based on how many other countries already know it!

Next we go back to Corruption! Remember that full funding education as China is EXPENSIVE! China probably should start with nearly full corruption! Ergo Quod Erat Demonstrandum said Meier the literary jerkass that I am, with high corruption and not many Universities funding education fully should either not be possible without going into debt or possible but with very little funds availiable for much else!

So Corruption, Tech, Unrest is three good ways to fully represent a "backwards" nation relatviely speaking without crippling said nation and forcing arbitrary events or decisions on the player that he could game to or be at the mercy of other players inregards to.

There are obviously more but they could proably just as well come back to the above 3, a Modern nation needs an army which required factories to produce small arms, ammunition, artillery, explosives, uniforms etc, it needs tech to know how to do the above it needs low corruption so you have competant officers and low chance of mutiny because they are actually getting paid! And Unrest more or less will determine if your army is able to be deployed in a war or if most of it is pinned down on rebel control.

So Number 4: Industry itself)

This is probably the last major category between what constites a "Civ" and a "Unciv", a "Civ" will have alot of factories, Ricky confuses this matter by starting economic powerhouses like France and Prussia (even for 1836) with next to nill factories compared to England, we should have a more complex industrial and transport system to make their relative advanceness compared to say China more apparent. So that a nation like China whose entire manufacturing is local and trade is mostly river based and never with the outside world is obviously backwards in comparison to say even Belgium whom has a bustling trade with its neighbors has a strong middle class driving its manufacturing albeit more crafting based then mass production.

So we resemble this by A) having it so that China and other uncivs start off not being able to actually trade and access the world market until by tech or decision (that should increase both corruption and unrest and increase susptibility to spying) and B) by simply having virtually no infastructure, industry or anything, simple RGO's making cotton with a percentage becomming the low end finsihed good by off screen "conversion" should suffice (as obviously China made some fabrics and from there some clothes but not enough to actually practically export it but enough although imperfectly and expensively for its own usages).


So here here and discuss! Add Unrest, Corruption, Industry, and Tech as "SOFT" measures of what constitutes a nation and get rid of backwards oppressive thinking with "Hard" limits of what constites "Civ" and "UnCiv"!!

In short have it so that there is NOTHING called "Your are Uncivilized" or otherwise that artifically restricts you! Have it instead that at the beginning your choices are limited by lack of tech and politics and that fixing both should be difficult, but not impossible to give you an actual fighting chance in a competitive multiplayer game and make single player more fun and challenging by having your gradually DEVELOPING your country and not just going through an arbitrary checklist until something goes "Ding!" And poof your civilized removing arbitrary limits on what you can do.
 
That's all very reasonable, if you think of it from the uncivilised perspective, however, I have to think that the spirit of the game isn't supposed to be from that perspective. Therefore, its a sloppy mistake to think of Uncivilised and Civilised countries as essentially equals with disparity in stats.

I think having to fight several wars to annex Egypt or Burma would add its own level of unrealistic behaviour. Uncivilised nations, by and large exist to be exploited by European powers in this game, and I believe ought to be modelled as such.
 
Personally, I loved the Vicky interface and never had any issues finding the desired info. What was really irritating was the search for a specific factory in a large nation, say Russia. I used to access one random region's factories and then continouusly click the arrows to cycle through the other regions until I found what I was looking for. Of course the ledger had what I needed, but the ledger - for me - is more a statistical tool than part of an interface, so I left it well alone.

The mockup looks too childish IMO. Keep the original interface but purge its shortcomings, like the difficulty to initiate research (I often end up only viewing it, so I don't research anything for a few months). Also it would help if specific pops could be taken in or out of factories / RGOs...


oh, and paradox: Thank you all!!! :D
 
I would like to see Personalities attached to the civil side of things, like with the military.

I mean that emminent figures in a country be represented, Monarchs, Heads of Political Parties, industrialists.

They could have traits and backgrounds attached to them as well. So we could see Queen Victoria, Benjamin Disraeli and Cecil Rhodes driving the country (People are only playing as the UK, right?)

And when no data is availible, it simply... like Victoria and Military leaders, generates a random one, for Communist upstarts where no Communists ruled.
 
1. Realistic Earth. I.e. The globe (like in old UFO series), but not the cylinder Earth.

2. The world map without big errors.

3. Map/provinces/scenarios editor.

4. Optimization for multi-core CPU.

Oh yes. Please, please, please (repeat 'please' 345 times). Please, paint a rivers on the map before drawing of provinces. And please, when you will place a main cities, use a whole Eurasia map (but not separate Europe and Asia maps). Otherwise we will see a terrible map again...
 
:confused:
i don't understand what you mean, the world market is the trade system. you trade anything with the world market.

I think he means it was a problem treating it as one world market. I tend to agree. Ideally there should be multiple markets. You could for instance have a concept like the EU center-of-trade (but without the huge bonus to the one owning it), and a then a market per COT. There should just be much much fewer COTs (like only one for the entire europe).

Buying from non-local CoTs would then get you resources in that region, that you would need to spend there or ship home. So if you have a big merchant fleet you could make money of others production, but buying cheap and shipping it to europe to sell it high.
 
The core issue Civ (amoungst some others) imo was caused by an early design fault before beta began in which global peasantry was measured in the same way regardless of the already massive differences that had occured. There was no difference between an African subsistance farmer or a small property owning farmer with heavy farming equipment in Essex.

As a result there had to be a number of band aid's and hard fixed rules that had to be applied because the civ methodology was essentially flawed very early on.

It was certainly the right way to go but farmer pops needed splitting out into a number of different catagories.

What you have listed out here is, imo, a list of further band aids which does not address the core issue. What is needed is a system that works without "special band aid rules".
 
Of course the ledger had what I needed, but the ledger - for me - is more a statistical tool than part of an interface, so I left it well alone.

How can someone play Vicky and not use the ledger? I think I spend as much time there as in the actual map. :rofl:

The mockup looks too childish IMO.

I like it though, it looks clean and simple. And we have to remember things will be 3D.

Keep the original interface but purge its shortcomings, like the difficulty to initiate research (I often end up only viewing it, so I don't research anything for a few months).

To me the little idea sign in the corner did the trick, EXCEPT when there was nothing to research but it still appeared there anyway (this seems to be a common problem to all PI games, I remember similar situations in Rome and EU3).

Also it would help if specific pops could be taken in or out of factories / RGOs...

Hell yeah... I want to unemploy the non-national POPs, not the national POPs, but I can't, because they're listed by "lowest ID first". :mad:

oh, and paradox: Thank you all!!! :D

Ditto x infinity.
 
A new trade system would be nice, an example:
If a Laissez Faire party is in power, capitalists will do all the trading (such as importing and exporting products to other countries). Interventionist, maybe the same but allowing tariffs to be established. State Capitalism and Planned Economies could have more government oriented trading between countries (where you decide yourself what to be traded).

Maybe remove the world market and have actual trading between countries instead (then trade wars would be a fun factor in the game).

Another thing about elections. Maybe a system where you can allow for example only Capitalists to vote in elections or only Craftmen etc.

If any of those ideas already been posted I apologize.
 
Remember the interface screenshot we have seen dosent show any of the main screen we'll be using (pop management, indutrial management, trade, politics), so I really wouldnt get to fixated on it now.

Personally I think it looks really good though.
 
Well... theres many many things to suggest. The first thing I will start with is the population system. I personally love the pops, and think that if anything, they can use more detail. However, the amount of control you can have over them is ridiculous. I essentially think that all pop promotion and migration should be automated, although influenced by your policies, literacy, wealth, and urbanization. The latter is a concept lacking in Vicky, but very important to add to Vicky 2 I think.

POPs should be split in two categories. Urban POPs and Countryside POPs. On the country-side, you would have:

Slaves, Serfs - Farmers - Aristocrats
Clergymen
Soldiers - Officers.

On the Urban Side you would have:

Slaves - Laborers - Foremen - Merchants - Capitalists (Entrepreneurs)
Clergymen, Bureaucrats
Soldiers - Officers.

Slaves sometimes become serfs or laborers, but mostly stay slaves, unless slavery is abolished. Slaves have no unemployment, and are not affected by that therefore.
Serfs generally remain serfs as long as they are employed, although they may sometimes slowly become farmers. When unemployed, serfs massively leave the countryside to become laborers in the city.
Farmers are a very big group in undeveloped provinces. If the province develops, as long as employed, some farmers will slowly promote to Aristocrats. When farmers loose employment, they will generally urbanize and mostly become Laborers. Some Farmers will however become Merchants.
Aristocrats are very very rare in undeveloped regions. In more developed regions they exist more, and they are very valuable as they greatly increase the efficiency of the output of the land. This does however come at a cost: The more aristocrats your land employs, the less farmers and serfs it will have room for... at a far greater rate then the increase in aristocrats. Therefore, development of the countryside will lead to unemployed farmers and serfs, which in turn will lead to increasing urbanization, and, at the same time, social unrest. Successful Aristocrats will slowly promote to Capitalists as well.
Laborers are the basic unit of the cities. Development of the countryside will generally lead to massive influxes of laborer pops. Laborers have very low income and can earn you a lot of money, but they are also very susceptible to social unrest and migration when unemployed for too long. Unemployed laborers will stay laborers though. Employed laborers slowly tend to get promoted to foremen, sometimes also to merchants.
Foremen greatly increase the efficiency of your factories. However, foremen only can be employed in a ratio to your employed laborers, and are limited by that (though technological advances may influence the ratio). Unemployed foremen will soon demote to laborers. Employed foremen may over time become merchants. (If they manage to build up cash reserves.)
Merchants symbolize the arising 'middleclass' in growing population centers. Bakers, Butchers, and all kinds of other shops and services. Merchants are not dependent on 'employment/unemployment' and can therefore grow significantly large. Merchants tend to buy higher quality goods then laborers and people from the countryside, and can therefore be a backbone in your local economy. However, Merchants are dependent on the success of your overall economy. If your economy goes down and merchants can no longer make sufficient money, they may degenerate to laborers, or emigrate. On the other hand, successful merchants may promote to Capitalists.
Capitalists are a absolute necessity if you want your state to industrialize without direct investment from the government. To become a capitalist a pop needs to have considerable cash reserves for initial investments, although policies and technological advances may decrease these requirements later on. Unlike in Vicky, Capitalists now build up their own 'enterprises' which specialize in specific branches of the economy. The enterprise of a capitalist is shown in his information of course. Which enterprise a capitalist chooses to become his branch is largely dependent on locally available resources, infrastructure, colonies, and the world market, in that order. Early in the game, and in less developed regions, most likely enterprises for capitalists would be food (in regions with lots of agriculture and low industrial development) and 'heavy industries' (in regions with lots of mining and low industrial development). Capitalists will focus on building factories in their own province initially, but then expand to their state and even further as they get more powerful. When they start to expand their own industries outside their province, they also start to develop infrastructure if necessary, to support it. If a certain capitalist's industry is not bringing in profit, the expansions coming from that capitalist will stagnate, and eventually the capitalist might even bankrupt, which removes his factories entirely and turns the pop back into merchants. To avoid this, states can choose to support industries and capitalists directly (financial support) and indirectly by creating attractive circumstances. Of course, if desired, states can also bankrupt capitalists on purpose to make room for new ventures of another kind.
Clergymen are important to keep pops happy, especially in times of unemployment. They are automatically pulled from your Aristocrats, Merchants, and Capitalists, at a rate dependent on mainly your states policies. Their religions depend on the pop they are pulled from. They will also slowly convert pops to whatever religion they are part of, which can help migration. In times of economic downturn, the rate at which clergymen come up is increased from the base that depends on policies.
Bureaucrats are important to keep the state running efficiently in many ways. Greater social interventions from the state require more bureaucrats. Bureaucrats receive their wages directly from the state. As such, they can be another boost for a countries internal market, like merchants, but at the same time, they will also be a drain on the coffers of the state. Bureaucrats are promoted from foremen, merchants, and aristocrats, at rates dependent on your policies and their employment (which also depends on your policies). Unemployed bureaucrats tend to become laborers.
Soldiers are necessary to generate manpower to feed your states military. They, like Bureaucrats are fed directly from the states coffers. Soldiers are a population group that is fairly easy to influence for statesmen. Simple increases and decreases in their wage will decide the rate at which they are recruited. Soldiers are recruited from serfs, farmers and laborers.
Officers are necessary to generate leadership which in turn is needed to find appropriate generals to lead your military. The mechanism behind them is as it is for soldiers, but instead they are drawn from Aristocrats, Foremen, and Merchants, and as those groups are more limited in size generally, they will still be harder to grow.


Each of these population types also has its own effects on literacy rates. There are four categories, which indicate how hard or easy it is to educate a group. Slaves and Serfs are in the low group. Farmers, Laborers, Foremen, and Soldiers, are in the middle-low group. Aristocrats, Clergymen, Merchants, and Bureaucrats are in the middle-high group. Officers and Capitalists are in the high group. On top of these, Clergymen give a bonus to education of pops of their own religion. Bureaucrats give a bonus to education of pops of all religions.


This system would have considerable depth, yet require very little from the players, as the players wouldnt manage it directly but only influence it with their policies and decisions. An exception to that would (to some degree) be communism, which will knock out all capitalists entirely, and both require and allow the player to take total control of industrialization themselves.

This is a first post with a suggestion. Far more from me will follow Im sure.
 
How about this

Instead of factories or industry, you have individual companies, owned by a specific capitalist pop. If we can set tax rates differently in different provinces, we could encourage certain types of industries and discourage others. So one capi pop's company would be primarily a heavy industry one, producing steel, concrete, sulphur etc, another one makes military goods, another one makes basic home goods (furniture, clothes, glass etc) and so on. the type of company that appears will be decided by your access to raw materials, so if you are playing as the UK and have access to plenty of coal, iron etc, you are more likely to get a heavy industry company, if you are playing as a minor you are more likely to get a company that produces cheaper goods etc.

This would mean that playing as a minor would incline you more towards state control of industry so you could compete, but playing as a major would incline you more towards letting capitalists do most of the work. Historical and adds to gameplay, IMO.
 
I would like to see Personalities attached to the civil side of things, like with the military.

I mean that emminent figures in a country be represented, Monarchs, Heads of Political Parties, industrialists.

They could have traits and backgrounds attached to them as well. So we could see Queen Victoria, Benjamin Disraeli and Cecil Rhodes driving the country (People are only playing as the UK, right?)

And when no data is availible, it simply... like Victoria and Military leaders, generates a random one, for Communist upstarts where no Communists ruled.

ability to have/choose ministers with malus/bonus depending on the ruling party could be very fun. :)
 
Great suggestion Strategist.

I would suggest that whatever happens with Bureacrats, they be a double edged sword. More will of course create a middle class with disposable income, generate research, maybe even contribute to education. However, they should also have a downside like slowing Capitalist development (red tape) and drawing their wage directly from the player's budget. This then makes the player choice between big and small government quite interesting.
Also, there could never be more more jobs for bureacrats then the government provides. IE, changing to Laisse-faire policy would cut jobs out of the dept. of trade.
 
Great suggestion Strategist.

I would suggest that whatever happens with Bureacrats, they be a double edged sword. More will of course create a middle class with disposable income, generate research, maybe even contribute to education. However, they should also have a downside like slowing Capitalist development (red tape) and drawing their wage directly from the player's budget. This then makes the player choice between big and small government quite interesting.
Also, there could never be more more jobs for bureacrats then the government provides. IE, changing to Laisse-faire policy would cut jobs out of the dept. of trade.

burocrats generating research?
not for spain, my friend :p
 
Personally, i liked it when all the menus were to the left.
Don't get me wrong, the interface screenshot looks awesome. But i think it's easier to manage both the map and for example pops, at the same time when the interface has a fixed position to the left.
 
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