Evening (European time) MP in WEST

[Gathenhielm]

Me too.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

I must say it disturbs me that you don't believe me when I am saying that the AI won't peace whatever peace offerings I am making. That was actually what made me stop fight and just give up. When I did that I had btw an army of 8k and no provinces occupied.

Respect my authority!

http://shop.comedycentral.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1788547

 

[Swuul]

Well, the game is over and converted to EU2. Screenies and save up hopefully tomorrow (if I have time to do them).

With all the weirdness in the end, the EU2 map sure does look weird. Papal state in Denmark, Mamelukes in Savoie etc

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I must say it disturbs me that you don't believe me when I am saying that the AI won't peace whatever peace offerings I am making. That was actually what made me stop fight and just give up. When I did that I had btw an army of 8k and no provinces occupied.

I believe that it didn't. I also gave you a reasoning why AI didn't want to make peace with you then:

1) AI had significant advantage in total numbers (comparing total manpower of Germany and UL)
2) When having advantage (see 1) AI usually does not want to make white peace or a peace where it would be losing
3) AI also doesn't want to make peaces where it would lose loads of prestige, due to calculation: Warscore - Peace Demands = Prestige Gained

So, AI assumed that with it's number advantage, it can take enough land from you get warscore high enough to make good demands. AI also tends to ask for peace if you take control of most it's demesne (which you did not), which is also reasonable. When we crashed, AI just gained control of a province of yours, which I think was the last province held by you, which of course led to immidiate peace settlement between Germany and UL (where UL was annexed too).

I really doubt you offered to give all your provinces to Germany.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

I believe that it didn't. I also gave you a reasoning why AI didn't want to make peace with you then:

1) AI had significant advantage in total numbers (comparing total manpower of Germany and UL)
2) When having advantage (see 1) AI usually does not want to make white peace or a peace where it would be losing
3) AI also doesn't want to make peaces where it would lose loads of prestige, due to calculation: Warscore - Peace Demands = Prestige Gained

So, AI assumed that with it's number advantage, it can take enough land from you get warscore high enough to make good demands. AI also tends to ask for peace if you take control of most it's demesne (which you did not), which is also reasonable. When we crashed, AI just gained control of a province of yours, which I think was the last province held by you, which of course led to immidiate peace settlement between Germany and UL (where UL was annexed too).

I really doubt you offered to give all your provinces to Germany.

It was not the last province. That province was Viviers (sp). Sens was still Lorrainian. Peace wasn't signed right after rehost. It took some time. Also I did offer all that could be offered (without being kicked out of the game - keeping one province), But all that is beside the point. It is still not reasonable for the AI not to accept peace when they have negative warscore, are offered lots of good stuff and are eaten by a much greater enemy in the east.

The facts are these:
A) The AI wasn't winning
B) The AI refused a better peace than it had warscore (I had positive) - I also tried giving lots of other offers unsuccessfully

Even if the AI was thinking it was winning
1) It wasn't - so the algorithms are not very good
2) Even if it were winning (which it weren't). Is it reasonable to refuse any peace where you do not get every single enemy province while you are not hloding any enemy province while the enemy is holding one of yours and you are eaten by another enemy?

I am sure will expain all this as it works as it should. If you are a lesser power (in MP) there shouldn't be possible to make peace until totally annexed.... I don't care if you do think it works as it should (from a gameplaying point of view) but it disturbs me that you are saying that I am not telling the truth. Specially when your last post had quite a few obviously false statements.

Remember that I said that what general idea that made the AI not work in this special case is irrelevant since it made the AI not work in this special case. I said it was malfunctioning, you said it worked properly and also that I was not telling the truth.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Ah well, I don't know all facts, I just made some assumptions. When I can't actually fully see what's happening (due to fog of war) and am really mostly doing something else than following the situation, I have to rely on assumptions based on limited information.

Also, I think you are misunderstanding my point with warscore.

If warscore between UL and Germany is +10 to UL, then Germany cannot make any advantageous peace with UL where it would not lose prestige. If Germany would make a peace with gains worth of 50 warscore, then it would lose 60 prestige in the situation. I think AI is either programmed to not to accept such a peace or it doesn't think of the peace's gains worth the prestige loss.

Then with "who-is-winning".

AI cannot possibly fully reason when it is actually winning and when not as well as a human can. Also I think the more complex reasoning AI has to use the more resource intensive the game would be. So, with these assumptions and some practical experience, I assume that AI draws "who-is-winning" scale from realm's manpower which is the total amount of men theoretically available to the AI. Realm manpower is calculated by counting all mobilized and un-mobilized regiments of the realm (including vassals that is), which certainly in this case was higher in Germany than with you.

This has the drawback that when AI couldn't practically use parts of it's realm's manpower (due to unloyal vassals for example), they still count for it's "strength".

Also, in my experience, AI copes rather poorly with religious enemies, because religious enemies never just take control of provinces, so Golden Horde annexing 6 out of 10 provinces from Germany does not rack up significant warscore from that.

Also, AI seems to focus on weaker enemies first to eliminate them from multiple enemy war, which is a viable strategy in most cases. Of course AI tends to like to reclaim provinces under enemy control as well. But when we combine the elements of multiple enemy war where other enemy is a religious enemy and other is not and the non-religious enemy is weaker one, which is the exact case here, it's bound to give unreasonable results at times.

EDIT: Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that you make false statements. Also, I don't intentionally make them. I am also not trying to defend the AI or say that it's working exactly reasonably in this case, but trying to explain how AI works in my experience, to help you better understand it's logic and why AI did what it did.

 

[Swuul]

Well, there are a few additional things that could also affect the outcome in Lorraine.
a) U-L DOWing Mamelukes (in support to its liege), it was noble and all, but no need for a burdened vassal to start an even heavier war to add... I should have made it clear that I didn't want any help (except money, of course). After all, when the Mames DOWed my urgent need was to make peace with them ASAP (which they agreed to after they had taken 6 of my provinces (but got Alexandria in return )
b) vassal troops for U-L were not available for them (at least in the beginning of the campaign)
c) neighbouring duchies also DOWed U-L

In all, I think the enemies of U-L must have had atleast 20 times more manpower.

Also, when all U-L provinces were liberated I made peace with with Germany, because I thought U-L had gained the upper-hand (and I desperately needed the 7k of troops against the Mames), with hindsight I can say that was a mistake. But I really thought Aldo had it under control then.

 

[Swuul]

From the EU2 transfered file, the political map.

From the EU2 transfered file, the political map.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

EDIT: Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that you make false statements. Also, I don't intentionally make them. I am also not trying to defend the AI or say that it's working exactly reasonably in this case, but trying to explain how AI works in my experience, to help you better understand it's logic and why AI did what it did.

Exactly. Even if I do appreciate your effort of trying to educate me of the AI mechanics all I was stating was that my situation was hopeless. Not because I was losing but because it was an unbreakable status quo and I was frustrated. I ran around killing the AIs armies but couldn't take many enemy provs since they were large forts, and sometimes large armies (which I later destroyed) retook the provs. This went on for years and years and in such a case you want comforting and a pat on your shoulder. Not someone telling you are doing wrong and the AI is behaving superbly.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

a) U-L DOWing Mamelukes (in support to its liege), it was noble and all, but no need for a burdened vassal to start an even heavier war to add...

Excuse me. Where did you get the idea that I dowed the Mameluks? I did not and would not do such a stupid thing.

As for neighbouring Duchies dowing me I was not aware of that. Long after I stopped to play I noticed some German vassal (though it was a count) took two of my provinces but he wouldn't have been a problem if I made an effort. The problem why I couldn't win against Germany were that he had these large forts that took a lot of troops and time. Of course in the end I would have won with the Mongols eating up all German provinces but it was very boring and then I had you two arguing as well.

 

[Swuul]

Excuse me. Where did you get the idea that I dowed the Mameluks? I did not and would not do such a stupid thing.

Errr... weeelll.... The list of wars Upper Lorraine was in was rather long. I was rather impressed how Upper Lorraine was in war with Germany, Mamelukes, some of Mame's vassals, a couple of counties and the republic of Bern. And there were others too

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Errr... weeelll.... The list of wars Upper Lorraine was in was rather long. I was rather impressed how Upper Lorraine was in war with Germany, Mamelukes, some of Mame's vassals, a couple of counties and the republic of Bern. And there were others too

U-L started none of those wars.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Jarkko, AI dows vassals of it's enemies. UL became vassal of Cyprus during the war of yours with Mameluks, so obviously Mameluks eventually dowed UL. Aldo is correct that he did not dow them himself.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Jarkko, AI dows vassals of it's enemies. UL became vassal of Cyprus during the war of yours with Mameluks, so obviously Mameluks eventually dowed UL. Aldo is correct that he did not dow them himself.

Of course I am.

 

[Swuul]

Jarkko, AI dows vassals of it's enemies. UL became vassal of Cyprus during the war of yours with Mameluks, so obviously Mameluks eventually dowed UL. Aldo is correct that he did not dow them himself.

Actually, U-L became my vassal before Mames DOWed (but before I DOWed Germany), but that of course does not change the fact. Still, the list of those in war with U-L was impressive, almost as long as the French list Which may be (?) a reason why AI powers where not eager to peace U-L; it was after all fighting against half the known world (known world does of course now include the lands of the Horde).

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Actually, U-L became my vassal before Mames DOWed (but before I DOWed Germany), but that of course does not change the fact. Still, the list of those in war with U-L was impressive, almost as long as the French list Which may be (?) a reason why AI powers where not eager to peace U-L; it was after all fighting against half the known world (known world does of course now include the lands of the Horde).

Possibly. And it also doesn't change that fact that none of these were winning against U-L. Actually only German forces attacked U-L in a manner I have already described so even if the number of enemies were infinit (acting as they did) that wouldn't contradict what I have previosuly stated. Of course many of the dows on U-L was after I disbanded the army and quit playing and when Germany was almost completely gone almost annexed by the Mongols. Not sure why you are still trying to make an argument and failing but please go on if that pleases you.

Observe that I am well aware that the AI acts logically given the instructions it has. That is not the issue as I have stated time and again.

 

[Swuul]

Not sure why you are still trying to make an argument and failing but please go on if that pleases you.

Well, no offense meant, but I really think you did get too eager like Sterk had done earlier, and got your butt handed over to you by the AI. It is ofcourse humilitating to be spanked by the AI, so I do understand why you think there is something wrong with it All I can say is, a few more games Aldo, and you'll avoid the holes So did I too, eventually (after falling into them time and again)... o

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Well, no offense meant, but I really think you did get too eager like Sterk had done earlier, and got your butt handed over to you by the AI. It is ofcourse humilitating to be spanked by the AI, so I do understand why you think there is something wrong with it All I can say is, a few more games Aldo, and you'll avoid the holes So did I too, eventually (after falling into them time and again)... o

What holes are you talking about? I didn't dow no one and was unable to peace out. I had no problem with being attacked by the German Empire and even losing the war would have been ok to me. Being stuck in a status quo was not very amusing though. Of course had U-L been much stronger than the AI, that could have solved it but the game should be playable in situations when you aren't the Ruler of the world as well imo.

Yes my BB was not very low (nor very high) but that didn't affect the situation I ended up in.

 

[Swuul]

What holes are you talking about? I didn't dow no one and was unable to peace out.

Heeh, true if you don't mean of course all those you had DOWed earlier. Lots of AI powers thus held claims on your lands, you are a badboy, they DOW you. You were unable to beat them, they were unable to beat you. Thus the one who wears out first loses.

The downfall of the duchy of U-L was the weak Kings of France and Germany. Sure, they held a lot of land, but were unable to defend their vassals when the whole of the universe hates them. The fact that Brabant and U-L kept France artificially at life after it had passed the point of no-return did gain lots of short term goodies, but in the long-run wasn't a smart move

Aldo, claiming you played a perfect game and got screwed by an incompetent AI simply doesn't look like what happened, at least in the eyes of a neighbour who had a perfect view on the matters If you still think that, then please do so, but you can't convince me

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Heeh, true if you don't mean of course all those you had DOWed earlier. Lots of AI powers thus held claims on your lands, you are a badboy, they DOW you. You were unable to beat them, they were unable to beat you. Thus the one who wears out first loses.

The downfall of the duchy of U-L was the weak Kings of France and Germany. Sure, they held a lot of land, but were unable to defend their vassals when the whole of the universe hates them. The fact that Brabant and U-L kept France artificially at life after it had passed the point of no-return did gain lots of short term goodies, but in the long-run wasn't a smart move

Aldo, claiming you played a perfect game and got screwed by an incompetent AI simply doesn't look like what happened, at least in the eyes of a neighbour who had a perfect view on the matters If you still think that, then please do so, but you can't convince me

Your eyesight is apperently not perfect. Perhaps if you take off your sunglasses you will improve your ability to see clearly. Dispite the eyesight I am surprised by the number of false statements you have made so far. In addition, every argument you still are taking up I have already disproved (Edit: the one about lots of AI powers with claims dowing is new and disproved below. Edit2: you stating untruthfully I have claimed certain things are also new and rejected further below). Repeating myself is getting tiresome.

That I was dowed is irrelevant for this situation since they were not gonna win. In fact since the Mongols were annexing Germany I was going to win eventually. Besides those facts some of the dows was more due to being vassal of you, not having high BB. The rest of the dows were revolting vassals. (Not that) high BB might possibly have been of some importance but what you just discribed about lots of AI powers with claims dowing me is not quite true. Germany was the only one actually.

That of course doesn't affect the issue at hand - namely the war against Germany. The war was not about wearing anyone out. It was about keeping status quo until Germany was annexed by another foe which was not only a boring situation but also ridiculous.

Nice, you are insinuating I have claimed
1) I played a perfect game. I have never claimed that. That is a lie. All I claimed was that the situation was boring and ridiculous.
2) I was screwed by the AI. I have never claimed that. I actually claimed I was going to win eventually (thanks to the Mongols) had I continued playing. I stopped due to the ridiculous and boring game experience. For me losing is not boring nor ridiculuos under reasonable circumstances.

I have also never tried to convince you of anything (when it comes to this matter ). I have uttered my disliking of you claiming I make untruthful statements and I have rejected and corrected your incorrect statements. That is all.