Forget min-maxing, just do what you want to so long as it doesn't break your country.
Beginner needs strategic advice.
- Thread starter Laoch
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Thank you all so much for the advice.
My economy is quite strong and my relations with nearly all major powers is quite good. The only problem is France. They hate me and have a mission to take Vlaanderan. Our multilayer game ends because France steam role me. 64k men flood into my provinces. I have 30k army consisting of superior infantry, some cavalry and 3 cannons. I win against the first two French stacks, but they just keep coming and in the end wipe me out.
I have no major ally except my friend who has a sizeable army but since he's the emperor he's heavily tied up elsewhere. I managed to stop them declaring war by place nearly 55k throughout my borders, but they went and took Northern Italy, Switzerland and Austria. They became far too powerful. I have no idea how to take these guys down.
Some things to note. I am the most advanced nation in the game, I can out take them and get to Land 16 in a few years (land 12 for them), but land 18 would take extra 25 years from the time I load the game up. France never let me get that far.
So problem is so, hold my own and let France advance into Italy and Austria where they become even more powerful or interfere early and get wiped out.
My economy is quite strong and my relations with nearly all major powers is quite good. The only problem is France. They hate me and have a mission to take Vlaanderan. Our multilayer game ends because France steam role me. 64k men flood into my provinces. I have 30k army consisting of superior infantry, some cavalry and 3 cannons. I win against the first two French stacks, but they just keep coming and in the end wipe me out.
I have no major ally except my friend who has a sizeable army but since he's the emperor he's heavily tied up elsewhere. I managed to stop them declaring war by place nearly 55k throughout my borders, but they went and took Northern Italy, Switzerland and Austria. They became far too powerful. I have no idea how to take these guys down.
Some things to note. I am the most advanced nation in the game, I can out take them and get to Land 16 in a few years (land 12 for them), but land 18 would take extra 25 years from the time I load the game up. France never let me get that far.
So problem is so, hold my own and let France advance into Italy and Austria where they become even more powerful or interfere early and get wiped out.
Can you get other allies to help you before he comes at you?
Also, try to give him a bit (concede defeat? release some injuns? cancel a vassal? - oh yes -reduce sphere?) after you defeat those first stacks..of course you COULD just give him that province as a peace offer after he declares war on you..That will buy you a few more years to prepare..
Remember of you win a battle on own ground, to deploy a leader with better maneuver than his leader, then follow retreating army (must have the game set to pause on battle win/loss, cause you want to arrive before the fleeing army.) Then you can destroy all those regiments because they are demoralized..
Also, try to give him a bit (concede defeat? release some injuns? cancel a vassal? - oh yes -reduce sphere?) after you defeat those first stacks..of course you COULD just give him that province as a peace offer after he declares war on you..That will buy you a few more years to prepare..
Remember of you win a battle on own ground, to deploy a leader with better maneuver than his leader, then follow retreating army (must have the game set to pause on battle win/loss, cause you want to arrive before the fleeing army.) Then you can destroy all those regiments because they are demoralized..
So, now you are not young anymore ....
Well... i am not old, not middle aged... so can i be not young?
I think some of your original questions haven't been answered yet:
1. The advice to just colonise everything in sight was good back in the IN days, but DW's new buildings system makes it more questionable. It might be better to colonise 50 provinces and have level 5-6 buildings in all of them, than 300 provinces and only be able to afford marketplaces and constables. But neither strategy will kill you.
Whichever you do, though, it's probably better to concentrate your colonies in a few strategic areas than spread them out all over the place - with the exception of setting up staging posts for further colonisation, as you're already doing. The Cape of Good Hope is an excellent region for that, and from there you might want to consider conquering Ceylon, which will give you the very nice Dutch East India Company decision as well as taking you closer to Java.
2. The penalty will go away after it beomes a core, yes; but it's done by an event that triggers at some point afterwards - it's not immediate or automatic.
4. The AI tends to be fairly slow to colonise compared to human players, but after a while it will start to snowball as more and more countries get into colonial range. Remember that provinces you discover are revealed to all the other players in your tech group after 50 years.
5. It's probably a good idea not to go overboard with colonies pre-Reformation if you're planning to convert, but there's no need to avoid them entirely. Make sure you get the best/richest/most strategic areas before Portugal does, but don't stress over keeping them out of the New World entirely.
Just make sure you have enough missionaries - take the necessary religious decisions, even consider taking the National Idea that gives extra ones. (Or conquer Jerusalem and Rome.) The cost of a missionary depends on the province population, so converting a colony is really cheap - and if it's still a colony and not a city, sending another colonist unit converts it to your state religion for free.
7. Look in the province information panel; one of the values there is 'Supply Limit' - if it's 12, that means you can support 12 regiments (12,000 men) there without them taking attrition. Bear in mind that in enemy provinces you only get 20% of the nominal supply value - that works both ways, which is why letting the enemy advance into your territory and get whittled down can be a good strategy. Unfortunatly, I don't think it'll work for Holland - you're too small, and your provinces are some of the richest in Europe so have the highest supply values.
Regarding France - unfortunately, if you're playing a minor power and a big blob next to you gets a core on your territory, you're pretty much doomed. You might be able to beat them back through clever play and the help of allies, but even so, they'll keep on coming unless you can defeat them and force them to remove their core.
Or there is Plan B, of course:
1. Concede defeat, cede them Vlaanderen.
2. If it's already your core and has Flemish culture, you won't lose the core.
3. Establish a vast colonial empire, build lots of army buildings that increase your manpower and forcelimit.
4. Build a huge navy.
5. Build a network of vast fortresses on your border with France.
6. Bribe other countries into allying with you.
7. Declare war. Blockade them (instant warscore to you, war exhaustion to them). Seize their colonies. Bleed their armies attacking your fortresses. Set your allies onto them. March triumphantly to Paris.
8. Take back Vlaandern. Also annex half of France. (Or if you'd rather stay as a trading and colonial power, force France to release half its country as independent nations, which you will then vassalise.)
1. The advice to just colonise everything in sight was good back in the IN days, but DW's new buildings system makes it more questionable. It might be better to colonise 50 provinces and have level 5-6 buildings in all of them, than 300 provinces and only be able to afford marketplaces and constables. But neither strategy will kill you.
Whichever you do, though, it's probably better to concentrate your colonies in a few strategic areas than spread them out all over the place - with the exception of setting up staging posts for further colonisation, as you're already doing. The Cape of Good Hope is an excellent region for that, and from there you might want to consider conquering Ceylon, which will give you the very nice Dutch East India Company decision as well as taking you closer to Java.
2. The penalty will go away after it beomes a core, yes; but it's done by an event that triggers at some point afterwards - it's not immediate or automatic.
4. The AI tends to be fairly slow to colonise compared to human players, but after a while it will start to snowball as more and more countries get into colonial range. Remember that provinces you discover are revealed to all the other players in your tech group after 50 years.
5. It's probably a good idea not to go overboard with colonies pre-Reformation if you're planning to convert, but there's no need to avoid them entirely. Make sure you get the best/richest/most strategic areas before Portugal does, but don't stress over keeping them out of the New World entirely.
Just make sure you have enough missionaries - take the necessary religious decisions, even consider taking the National Idea that gives extra ones. (Or conquer Jerusalem and Rome.) The cost of a missionary depends on the province population, so converting a colony is really cheap - and if it's still a colony and not a city, sending another colonist unit converts it to your state religion for free.
7. Look in the province information panel; one of the values there is 'Supply Limit' - if it's 12, that means you can support 12 regiments (12,000 men) there without them taking attrition. Bear in mind that in enemy provinces you only get 20% of the nominal supply value - that works both ways, which is why letting the enemy advance into your territory and get whittled down can be a good strategy. Unfortunatly, I don't think it'll work for Holland - you're too small, and your provinces are some of the richest in Europe so have the highest supply values.
Regarding France - unfortunately, if you're playing a minor power and a big blob next to you gets a core on your territory, you're pretty much doomed. You might be able to beat them back through clever play and the help of allies, but even so, they'll keep on coming unless you can defeat them and force them to remove their core.
Or there is Plan B, of course:
1. Concede defeat, cede them Vlaanderen.
2. If it's already your core and has Flemish culture, you won't lose the core.
3. Establish a vast colonial empire, build lots of army buildings that increase your manpower and forcelimit.
4. Build a huge navy.
5. Build a network of vast fortresses on your border with France.
6. Bribe other countries into allying with you.
7. Declare war. Blockade them (instant warscore to you, war exhaustion to them). Seize their colonies. Bleed their armies attacking your fortresses. Set your allies onto them. March triumphantly to Paris.
8. Take back Vlaandern. Also annex half of France. (Or if you'd rather stay as a trading and colonial power, force France to release half its country as independent nations, which you will then vassalise.)
Great Advice Stephen.
So far I've managed to establish my nation and for the Netherlands. I've started to colonise and have taken all of the Caribbean and I'm working along the east coast of America. So far I'm the only one there. Portugal and Great Britain were there, but I send spies to incite a native attack and colonised when the colony was wiped out.
As for France, well I followed the advise of the thread and rushed teched to land 18. I engaged France with my friend. Was a great war. 50/50 the entire way. Swinging in their favour, our favour then their favour again, but we finally beat them. In the peace I broke up France into a similar state there were in at the start of the game. Still though, recently they have started to re-emerge as a power again, but I'm sure we can beat them again.
I have a few new questions.
I want to establish a new COT. Bearing in mind I have the east coast of America and the Caribbean where is the ideal location to build a new COT? Can I/should I build more than one? How do they develop?
So far I've managed to establish my nation and for the Netherlands. I've started to colonise and have taken all of the Caribbean and I'm working along the east coast of America. So far I'm the only one there. Portugal and Great Britain were there, but I send spies to incite a native attack and colonised when the colony was wiped out.
As for France, well I followed the advise of the thread and rushed teched to land 18. I engaged France with my friend. Was a great war. 50/50 the entire way. Swinging in their favour, our favour then their favour again, but we finally beat them. In the peace I broke up France into a similar state there were in at the start of the game. Still though, recently they have started to re-emerge as a power again, but I'm sure we can beat them again.
I have a few new questions.
I want to establish a new COT. Bearing in mind I have the east coast of America and the Caribbean where is the ideal location to build a new COT? Can I/should I build more than one? How do they develop?
First the basics: always build CoTs in coastal provinces because they give an extra fractional colonist. Make sure they're in fairly central, easily-defensible locations. Most importantly, only build them in provinces where you have a core.
The benefit of building lots of CoTs is that each one gives a pretty substantial bonus to the income of the province it's in, quite apart from its trade value. The downside is that each CoT you build needs you to spend money on sending out more merchants, and the global number of merchants you have acts as a penalty to your compete value. Some players like to just build one CoT for all their empire, and gloat as its trade value climbs into the multi-thousand ducat range. Personally I prefer to set up one in each major region. If you build one in the centre of the American East coast - Manhattan, say, it will probably cover all your american colonies. If you see that your provinces in the Caribbean are trading through somewhere else, you'll know there's room for another.
As trade values increase overall, AI countries tend to set up their own CoTs, so late in the game there are lots of small ones instead of a handful of large ones.
The benefit of building lots of CoTs is that each one gives a pretty substantial bonus to the income of the province it's in, quite apart from its trade value. The downside is that each CoT you build needs you to spend money on sending out more merchants, and the global number of merchants you have acts as a penalty to your compete value. Some players like to just build one CoT for all their empire, and gloat as its trade value climbs into the multi-thousand ducat range. Personally I prefer to set up one in each major region. If you build one in the centre of the American East coast - Manhattan, say, it will probably cover all your american colonies. If you see that your provinces in the Caribbean are trading through somewhere else, you'll know there's room for another.
As trade values increase overall, AI countries tend to set up their own CoTs, so late in the game there are lots of small ones instead of a handful of large ones.
Thanks again for the reply Stephen, I greatly appreciate your help.
Just a few more question for the day and I'll be on my way.
What buildings should I build in the colonies? Just trade and ignore tax and production based ones since the colonies don't generate tax (Hope I'm right in thinking that)?
Are the building that cost around 1500 ducats worth the money? I'm talking the likes of factories and Universities.
Finally, I'm going to declare war on the Creek. Should I defeat them and force a change in religion to reformed (my state religion) wait till the truce expires and go in for full annex or just Annex them straight away and change religion through missionaries?
Just a few more question for the day and I'll be on my way.
What buildings should I build in the colonies? Just trade and ignore tax and production based ones since the colonies don't generate tax (Hope I'm right in thinking that)?
Are the building that cost around 1500 ducats worth the money? I'm talking the likes of factories and Universities.
Finally, I'm going to declare war on the Creek. Should I defeat them and force a change in religion to reformed (my state religion) wait till the truce expires and go in for full annex or just Annex them straight away and change religion through missionaries?
Here i completely NOT agree on. I think that this +0,1 colonist won't save you anyway. Best is to build cot in high manpower province like thrace, london, paris, moscow or so. It is because every COT level increase you manpower by 10% which mean, more manpower you got in the province, it is more COT worthy. I think think that, Kiev is also a good place for COT, but most people don't build it there. Ofc, if COT has big manpower, and is on shore, it IS good, but it is not like it will matter so much. Anyway i think that best is to also consider that there is event for grain provinces that increase their manpower or tax, so grain provinces are most COT worthy. Anyway if you plan building COT on america i think it does not matter so much where you build as all colonies got quite low base manpower, which means building COT in shore province is good idea. If you plan to move yourself just only into america, and sell your continental provinces, it may be a good to build cot in place like manhattan. As i suppose, your fleet will be big, you will be able to easily defend it from any attack by that, even if your armies will take looses.
1. Yeah, the way colonies are set up right now the best way to deal with them is to spam trade buildings and avoid all others - unless you don't have a whole continent to deal with, then you can also add docks and if you're really small... production line up until counting houses. Avoid trade buildings on grain and wool provinces, however. Those are the least valuable 2 in the game.
2. Factories should cost ~950, so if they are costing you 1500, build more manpower buildings. The more manpower, the more factories you can build at their intended cost. The price increase gets ridiculous after a few over the limit. I don't know the rate of factories/manpower to keep them cheap, but if you keep checking up on the price it will go down accordingly. Edit - are they worth it? That's debatable. They're probably more useful for massive continental empires with a land focus (Russia)over vast colonial empires (Netherlands).
3. Don't force them to change religion. You get really cheap conquest towards pagans. Whether or not you want to spam missionaries depends entirely on which direction your innovation slider is set. If you're very innovative and have negative missionary growth, just avoid them outright and colonize vacant land. (hint: If you remain slightly narrow-minded once the reformation hits, there are several very good religious decisions that increase your yearly missionary growth. This way you can later move towards innovative and not be prohibited from converting provinces)
Every building will bring you some benefit even in a colony province, but it's less (usually a lot less) than it would get you in a non-colony region. Even tax buildings, since part of the province's tax value is converted into tariffs. So by all means build buildings in colonies, but only after you've fully built up your homeland in Europe.
Army and navy buildings that give a bonus to your force limit are worth building in colonies, especially if you're playing a small trading empire instead of a large land power.
As for manufactories, they bring in an income of 72 ducats per year, so at a cost of 950 they'll pay for themselves in 13 years. I'd say that's worth it.
Never force natives to convert by war. You want to conquer their provinces and then send missionaries, because if the province has the pagan religion, the missionary will also convert it to your own (Dutch) culture. If they're already Reformed, you can't do that and the province will remain Native American culture (30% income penalty).
Army and navy buildings that give a bonus to your force limit are worth building in colonies, especially if you're playing a small trading empire instead of a large land power.
As for manufactories, they bring in an income of 72 ducats per year, so at a cost of 950 they'll pay for themselves in 13 years. I'd say that's worth it.
Never force natives to convert by war. You want to conquer their provinces and then send missionaries, because if the province has the pagan religion, the missionary will also convert it to your own (Dutch) culture. If they're already Reformed, you can't do that and the province will remain Native American culture (30% income penalty).
hmm.. Since he is only asking about CoT's in the colonies, that one about Kiev (him playing Holland/Netherlands..) won't matter that much
Also, since they broke the back of France, he won't have to move overseas, unless he wan'ts to give his European provinces to his mp buddy..
But, given that, if op is to choose placement of CoT, first it should be on a coast, and second, it might as well have some manpower. -he can of course build some of the army buildings there, that will increase manpower..
And back to op questions, Yes the big buildings are DEFINITIVELY worth the money!
Remember that the manufactories cost more the more you build of them, AND that the extracost is ALSO dependant in some mysterius way to your total manpower, or your manpower/province somehow..anyway, if you build a province up to a conscription centre, you will get +6500 manpower, and +50% manpower, giving you at least 9750 more manpower in that one province! If that is a level 5 tradecentre, it would be at least 13000 manpower from that one province! That will help keeping the price of those refineries down..Also always build the manufactories where they get the bonus, if possible at all.
So your Coastal centre of trade should be one where you intend to build the army level 5 and 6 buildings, and not one where you are planning any of the other level 5/6 buildings. Which is a bit difficult, since it is very tempting to build a mint in the same province as the tradecenter...
I think that first should be accounted that, does cot have good manpower(if we don't consider it because we want to make cot in colonies and none of them got good manpower then we should forget about it, but anyway in other cases we should consider it), then is it a grain province, then we should make sure it is core, and THEN if it is coast. As the colonist coast bonus for cot is thing least to be considered, just because it is so small it is not realy worth mentioning, unless you realy have no colonist, and you need them urgently.
Actually it's a great place. Any inland grain provinces with base tax over 10 are wonderful CoTs, they can get the agricultural revolution for extra tax, and the more value of the trade center, that tax can into space.
Yeah, i was sometimes wondering if not move COT from moscow to kiev instead in my russian games.
Always destroy cot in novgorod. Anyway novgorod is being quite fine province anyway. Aspecialy with annex novgorod mission.
Iwanow, blood eagle : The Original Poster (=op) is playing Holland, with a multiplayer partner who is Emperor starting as Brandenburg.
Likelyhood that any cot east of brandburg is his to destroy is small to none.
And he is going to be colonizing big time, so those few extra colonist pr. decade IS meaningful.
About core province : Everything will become your core if you hang onto it for 50 years. So not really a factor at all- the planning here is for like 200 years..
Again : it is where, and when, op should build a tradecenter in the colonies, especially america/north.. But that thing about grain might be worth pursuing : Also demand for grain goes up if building conscriptioncentre, and army buildings..
Likelyhood that any cot east of brandburg is his to destroy is small to none.
And he is going to be colonizing big time, so those few extra colonist pr. decade IS meaningful.
About core province : Everything will become your core if you hang onto it for 50 years. So not really a factor at all- the planning here is for like 200 years..
Again : it is where, and when, op should build a tradecenter in the colonies, especially america/north.. But that thing about grain might be worth pursuing : Also demand for grain goes up if building conscriptioncentre, and army buildings..
Yeah you are right, but he should know the normal rules, so he know what to do in any situation, not just in ab-normal one. Anway, on the other hand, if he got antwerpen COT he already got +0.10 to colonist. Whatever having COT in america MAY be lot safer due being over the sea, but as long as he will not move his capital, he will not get full tax value of the COT that is overseas. So unless he moves capital to america, it may be better for him to not build a new COT.