#4th Tier: Empire

[LordofSaxony]

I wouldn't mind seeing a an empire tier, but I am definately against making it easy. There is a reason why there was no real empire in the Middle ages. Its because nations were too strong and independent for other nations to walk over them and take them.

The English attempted to take France, and it took them a 100 years to fail. What in the world makes you think its easy to conquer Spain, England, France, Germany and most of europe to declare an empire of X?

So, I pose this hypothetical question. What difficulty, and what gains do you need to achieve before you can change into an empire? What sounds reasonable in your best guess?

 

[Chaingun]

What in the world makes you think its easy to conquer Spain, England, France, Germany and most of europe to declare an empire of X?

The AI

 

[SaberHRE]

So, I pose this hypothetical question. What difficulty, and what gains do you need to achieve before you can change into an empire? What sounds reasonable in your best guess?

Well there are two possible scenarios possible.
1) After conquering All of Western Europe, the ruler could declare himself the Roman Empire (Western or not i do not know). This seems legitimate as rulers of the middle ages always looked to Rome as a military and administrative role model.
2) Declaring national empires. Empire of Serbia, Hispania, France/Frankia.
This is a more unorthodox less safe step, because declaration of such an Empire seems slightly unrealistic unless only limited to its nation. Not scotsmen want to be part of a Frankish/French Empire.

Again I do believe in the usefullness of Empire tiers, but their formation should be extremely hard to achieve. I'm talking about wars that you really dont want to fight.

 

[RedRooster81]

Well there are two possible scenarios possible.
1) After conquering All of Western Europe, the ruler could declare himself the Roman Empire (Western or not i do not know). This seems legitimate as rulers of the middle ages always looked to Rome as a military and administrative role model.
2) Declaring national empires. Empire of Serbia, Hispania, France/Frankia.
This is a more unorthodox less safe step, because declaration of such an Empire seems slightly unrealistic unless only limited to its nation. Not scotsmen want to be part of a Frankish/French Empire.

Again I do believe in the usefullness of Empire tiers, but their formation should be extremely hard to achieve. I'm talking about wars that you really dont want to fight.

Ah, the idea of Universal Monarchy. There is the military angle, but also the diplomatic one. It takes longer, but I would prefer a multi-generational move as your dynasty comes to power. We will probably have few centuries to play with after all.

 

[Vasil_Kolarov]

Interesting....

Bulgaria isnt created by the Slavic population (if you bellieve that Bulgarians are slavic state, consider yourself a commie). The title Tsar (Bulgarian title for emperor, comes from the word/name Ceaser) gotta be in the game because it was lame to have the western title when you are playing as an eastern European country. Also there was a ruller who caried the title King(Rex) and this was Kaloyan the Roman slayer. He had to cary the title because only that way the pope would recognised the legitamancy of his rule of Bulgaria. I also think he must be a great point of interest because he spent a lot of time fighting the crusader states in the Balkans (4th crusade).

 

[unmerged(59077)]

Bulgaria isnt created by the Slavic population (if you bellieve that Bulgarians are slavic state, consider yourself a commie).

Not only are the Bulgarians A Slavic state, they're THE Slavic state after which most other Slavic states are modelled, literature and law and all.

That little bit with the Bulgars from the steppe is about as significant as Rurik being a Varangian. A great foundation story, but not all that important in a few short generations.

----

Back on topic: I am not necessarily asking for a 4th Tier; but for more than 3 tiers.

Udel -> Principality -> Grand Principality is a must. The greatest of the GP -> Tsar is the final step, but the GP of Kiev or Vladimir, or even Galich, occupied a special role through most of that period, almost a 4th tier.

 

[.Spartan]

Well there are two possible scenarios possible.
1) After conquering All of Western Europe, the ruler could declare himself the Roman Empire (Western or not i do not know). This seems legitimate as rulers of the middle ages always looked to Rome as a military and administrative role model.
2) Declaring national empires. Empire of Serbia, Hispania, France/Frankia.
This is a more unorthodox less safe step, because declaration of such an Empire seems slightly unrealistic unless only limited to its nation. Not Scotsmen want to be part of a Frankish/French Empire.

Again I do believe in the usefulness of Empire tiers, but their formation should be extremely hard to achieve. I'm talking about wars that you really dont want to fight.

I think the option to declare oneself Emperor of the Western Roman Empire should be in the game as well as Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire for the other side. Of course the ultimate emperor title would be to have both East and West and be able to simply claim Emperor of the Second Roman Empire.

Additionally it would be nice to see special bonuses for the East and West titles.

 

[Tangent]

Considering the period, I don't think a 4th tier capable of ruling the entire map is a good idea. If there is a 4th tier, at most it should just give a prestige bonus and maybe a few modestly special diplomatic options.

 

[Hawkeye1489]

Considering the period, I don't think a 4th tier capable of ruling the entire map is a good idea. If there is a 4th tier, at most it should just give a prestige bonus and maybe a few modestly special diplomatic options.

Just because you are capable of recreating the entirety of the Roman Empire doesn't mean you will be capable of sustaining such rule. I am all for the empire tier and think it should be an option.

 

[RedRooster81]

Just because you are capable of recreating the entirety of the Roman Empire doesn't mean you will be capable of sustaining such rule. I am all for the empire tier and think it should be an option.

If restoring the Carolingian Empire or the Roman Empire is your aim, then after gaining the Pope's cooperation by hook or crook and establishing your capital, why not? Just like Charlemagne, the problem is indeed keeping it all together and it takes only one or two bad successors to your empire to screw it all up. But you might just recreate something great, turn back the Great Schism, and establish a golden age. Consolidating your gains is going to be the real challenge, so some options for imperial institutions aimed at creating unity, maybe an imperial senate and many of the reforms present in HTTT.

 

[A_Dane]

I wouldn't mind seeing a an empire tier, but I am definately against making it easy. There is a reason why there was no real empire in the Middle ages. Its because nations were too strong and independent for other nations to walk over them and take them.

The English attempted to take France, and it took them a 100 years to fail. What in the world makes you think its easy to conquer Spain, England, France, Germany and most of europe to declare an empire of X?

What in the world made you think we/I meant to imply it was gonna be easy? Getting all those crowns together under 1 persons rule would be an immense task, which should yield some sort of reward, which is my whole point arguing for a 4th tier.

Now once you have created a 4th tier, it should be an even greater task keeping it together, if your succesor isn't as grand as his predecessor (Louis the pious anyone?), and creating it in the first place should not be possible for a medicore king, as he would probably, and should, not even be able to hang on to all the king titles, as the different dukes would be trying to gain power for themselves.

But for a "new" Charlemagne I'd say it should be possible...

 

[Hawkeye1489]

If restoring the Carolingian Empire or the Roman Empire is your aim, then after gaining the Pope's cooperation by hook or crook and establishing your capital, why not? Just like Charlemagne, the problem is indeed keeping it all together and it takes only one or two bad successors to your empire to screw it all up. But you might just recreate something great, turn back the Great Schism, and establish a golden age. Consolidating your gains is going to be the real challenge, so some options for imperial institutions aimed at creating unity, maybe an imperial senate and many of the reforms present in HTTT.

I completely agree with you . My point was that once you have established an Empire and you have been crowned Emperor, then it should be difficult to maintain that Empire. If Henry the Glorious is succeeded by John the Greatest-Thing-Since-Sliced-Bread then there should be options that allow for intigration and unity. Perhaps the longer the Empire is held together, events/decisions/etc should be available for the people to begin to lose their national focus (I am a Frank, or Norman, or Castillian) and identify with the Empire (I am Roman). Of course, if Henry the Glorious is succeeded by William the Half-Wit, then negative events/internal rebellions should fire.

 

[.Spartan]

I completely agree with you . My point was that once you have established an Empire and you have been crowned Emperor, then it should be difficult to maintain that Empire. If Henry the Glorious is succeeded by John the Greatest-Thing-Since-Sliced-Bread then there should be options that allow for integration and unity. Perhaps the longer the Empire is held together, events/decisions/etc should be available for the people to begin to lose their national focus (I am a Frank, or Norman, or Castillian) and identify with the Empire (I am Roman). Of course, if Henry the Glorious is succeeded by William the Half-Wit, then negative events/internal rebellions should fire.

An outstanding idea to be sure. I considered it to be something of value along the lines of a "national idea" but as an inherent variable it seems ingenious.

 

[Vasil_Kolarov]

Not only are the Bulgarians A Slavic state, they're THE Slavic state after which most other Slavic states are modelled, literature and law and all.

Bulgarians are quite different from every other slavic nation, its not just words and letters but our complexion is quite different from the slavic. Its true that slavs "moddeled" their culture after ours but does this makes us slavic. In 1945 Stalin forced the new comunist government of Bulgaria to brainwash young pupils into thinking that we are slavic brothers with the russians and that they actually liberated us from the facist yoke. Today every communist lie is unveiled and left to be forgoten.

 

[unmerged(59077)]

Bulgarians are quite different from every other slavic nation, its not just words and letters but our complexion is quite different from the slavic. Its true that slavs "moddeled" their culture after ours but does this makes us slavic. In 1945 Stalin forced the new comunist government of Bulgaria to brainwash young pupils into thinking that we are slavic brothers with the russians and that they actually liberated us from the facist yoke. Today every communist lie is unveiled and left to be forgoten.

Heh, can't reason with a convinced conspirologist. Alright, I see the truth now - if it wasn't for Stalin, Bulgaria would still be a Turkish state. Keep fighting the good fight, my friend. Everyone knows nations are not defined by language but by complexion, after all, and never mind your flag or your recent nationhood.

 

[Vasil_Kolarov]

Whatever really, we are going too much offtopic anyway.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Whatever really, we are going too much offtopic anyway.

Yes, you are. So please stop with it !

 

[LordofSaxony]

I completely agree with you . My point was that once you have established an Empire and you have been crowned Emperor, then it should be difficult to maintain that Empire. If Henry the Glorious is succeeded by John the Greatest-Thing-Since-Sliced-Bread then there should be options that allow for intigration and unity. Perhaps the longer the Empire is held together, events/decisions/etc should be available for the people to begin to lose their national focus (I am a Frank, or Norman, or Castillian) and identify with the Empire (I am Roman). Of course, if Henry the Glorious is succeeded by William the Half-Wit, then negative events/internal rebellions should fire.

That is actually a great idea. If you can live through the rugged beginnings, you should be able to reap the benefits.

 

[RedRooster81]

I completely agree with you . My point was that once you have established an Empire and you have been crowned Emperor, then it should be difficult to maintain that Empire. If Henry the Glorious is succeeded by John the Greatest-Thing-Since-Sliced-Bread then there should be options that allow for intigration and unity. Perhaps the longer the Empire is held together, events/decisions/etc should be available for the people to begin to lose their national focus (I am a Frank, or Norman, or Castillian) and identify with the Empire (I am Roman). Of course, if Henry the Glorious is succeeded by William the Half-Wit, then negative events/internal rebellions should fire.

Thank you for the compliment. I think in terms of culture, you could value local difference (which is an option in EU3, forgot which version) or for a more centralized empire you could indeed create a sort of "imperial" culture as you suggest that would spread over time especially around the capital and other centers of power. Many different possibilities which is why I find it so exciting and I am happy to find others do as well.

 

[The Hidden]

A good compromise would be:

Require 4-5 King titles = Create your empire.

BUT you can only create the Roman Empire (byzantine) or Holy Roman empire with additional qualifications. So lets say, then, if I conquer all of Rus, the Baltic, Poland, Hungary - no man in a stupid pointy hat in Rome is going to tell me I'm not an empire. There shoudlb e ahistorical ones, but for big historical ones, extra qualifications should be imposed.