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Ironfoundersson said:
Looks like my thursday wil be fre most of the itmes, so I can come in as a perm for the remaining 80 years. Though Russia is in quite a bad shape, low fortification, low tech and its manpower advantage is almost gone with CCs all over Europe. Maybe I can get some compensation for the years of bad sub managment :D
Ah good. :)
Only barely. Almost all your attacks on the siege army in ingmarland were not spotted by me, thus I never got to reinforce that army in time.
Ah, so my pointless invasion of Siberia was good for something then. :D
 
Fredrik82 said:
And in the latest war, you fought me once. you didn't even try to take ivoria,

*shrug*

I took Ivoria :p

And I couldn't take other provinces because I had no LAND ACCESS to them, and thus could get no troops there.

but anyway, stop trying to judge me, when I still need to formulate my reasons...
 
ForzaA said:
*shrug*

I took Ivoria :p

And I couldn't take other provinces because I had no LAND ACCESS to them, and thus could get no troops there.

but anyway, stop trying to judge me, when I still need to formulate my reasons...
You're not sure why you want to leave? In that case, don't leave. :) We want you to stay, and we enjoy playing with you every week. Aragon is doing OK and can still have a significant impact on world affairs.
 
Owen said:
Two European nations have refused to engage with naval matters at all, despite building substantial colonial holdings. Step forward France and Austria.

Refuse, you say? Owen, I have 1 single European harbour... there's not much I can do naval-wise.
 
I have desided to remove all alliance that involves players, regardless of what you all think. :p

If you don't want to leave your current alliance, then you can just form it again - but it gives people a chance to begin from a fresh, if they like.
 
Hive said:
That's probably true. If what Fred says about eg. Burgundy and Sweden's support limits are true, then it's only a lack of will that prevents them from succeeding.

Now could you point moment England have been alone without support from another naval power (only moment was when Denamrk was peaced out)? So add England to Burgundy or Sweden&Denmark or Denmark and compare that to others its never that simple. As you are eager to add together all other when comparing then add together what England has had in its side.
 
Rezag said:
Now could you point moment England have been alone without support from another naval power (only moment was when Denamrk was peaced out)? So add England to Burgundy or Sweden&Denmark or Denmark and compare that to others its never that simple. As you are eager to add together all other when comparing then add together what England has had in its side.

Indeed, England never really stood alone.

Speaking of England, I fixed the savegame so that they get the UK flag now.

Speaking of savegames, I have found out that it's not Vricklund's connection that caused long loading times yesterday - it's the size of the savegame: almost 10 MB! :eek:

I think this large size is due to the increased leader database in it...
 
Owen said:
You're not sure why you want to leave? In that case, don't leave. :)
*shrugs again*
I know/knew why, I just need(ed) to make sure that I formulated it as I wanted, and I think I have succeeded in that.

======================================================

Now, as to the reason I told Hive I planned to quit:

It was mostly frustration, caused mainly by the following:

1) Portugal.
Aragon's obvious ally, prime target of Aragon's foreign office (funding, coordination, colonial sharing). Lost it's one main advantage, early exploration to gain an economic base. In fact, they were one of the last countries to gain maps to ANY colonial region, which made them quite weak. After that, the subbing start, making preparations for ANYTHING as an alliance quite hard. And it got even worse, eventually, Portugal was even AI'ed. Now, I had two options, the first being the diplomatic way, the second being the military way.
Obviously, at some +200 relations, RM, alliance, MA, the diplomatic way makes the most sense. Imagine my frustration when they time and again refused vasalisation. Add to that that England got a (in effect) FREE vasalisation of Portugal soon afterwards, and you'll understand my frustration.

2) Events and DP's.
Now, this was something I could/should have known. But to be honest, I had not imagined the effect (or perceived effect) this would have. Historical events, even for the Ottoman Empire, overall are POSITIVE in nature, and certainly help in reaching "ideal" DP's (almost all extreme DP's are better than moderate DP's). Aragon, however, had all of one historical event. And even now, halfway through the 18th century, Aragon's DP's are far from ideal.
While not anyone's fault, it did add to my frustration.

3) England.
Not going into the "über" discussion. Whether or not England is/was über, it certainly LOOKED über, and Aragon certainly would NOT be able to do something if England did not want it to happen (Africa is like 80% coastline, in Italy, all provinces border the sea, and both my Capital and CoT are on the coast). Additionally, England held, and still holds (I'll admit this was because I attacked him- after he built a colony in Africa..) one of the most important provinces in Africa, namely Ivoria, not only that, it also meant that my entire "African plan" that is, holding all african ports to prevent exploration of the Indian ocean and Indonesia, was a failure.

4) Random Leaders.
While the idea of random leaders is excellent, and I support it as such, in my oppinion the way it was implemented in THIS campaign was a failure.
Both Aragon and Portugal basically missed the New World campaign, for lack of explorers and conquistadors, meaning that while others were building vast colonial empires, while Aragon and Portugal could do nothing, except colonising a few scraps here and there. IMO the way this was done in Ryoken's 5prov scenario, was better, everyone got the same amount of leaders, and while not exactly at the same time, everyone would get an explorer in a relatively short timespan, not giving anyone the chance to explore and claim a large piece of the new world before someone else would show up.

5) Organisational.
While more of a general problem, than one specific of this campaign, the late starts almost every time, are a source of frustration. Additionally, the end time is not my preferred end time..

6) My neighbours.
Aragon has three neighbours in Europe, Portugal ( see 1) ) France, and Venice. This in effect meant that I had NO chance to expand in Europe, while expectable, it was no fun. France has the clear upper hand in MP, morale and technology, Venice, OTOH, was so much smaller/weaker, that an attack on them would certainly trigger responses from other countries, that would most likely tear my apart.

7) Pushing and bickering.
Two last things that caused my frustration. Firstly, the continueing pushing for Aragon to "do something" and/or to make itself useful. Now, I know that my income looked pretty decent for a long time, but I experienced first hand that Africa, while giving a decent income, costs even more. What frustrated me is that, even after repeatedly making this known, the pushing continued. Secondly, the bickering, while not unique for this campaign, to me was especially frustrating in this particular game.

Now, I hope that I have made clear why I felt the need to tell Hive that I didn't feel like continueing anymore.
However, despite losing a navy of over 17000 ducats (would've been some 12000 if I had had ideal DP's ) last session was an improvement on most fronts, and I will continue this campaign, hoping that it won't drop back down.

Thank you for your attention.
 
I want to make clear that I have shipyards in all my European provinces and can support 600 ships total. Im not quite sure what Sweden can support, but I AM sure that it aint 800 ships. That Sweden and Burgundy together can summon 1400 is BS, however that England and Denmark can is a fact(in this war they had 1350 WS outside Anglia for quite some time).

And I want to counter on that passiveness accuse. In Gascogne we had the Burgundian/Aragonian fleet when the war started, and had to get the swedish there also. But then it was clear that our fleet only numbered 1000 ships, while the English alone had 950 WS. Only Sweden had then a naval tech equal to the english, and nowone of us had a good admiral. We clearly needed more ships. After a while the venetians arrived and we finally had around 1300 ships and moved them to Bretagne. Now we spotted the 1350 Anglo/Danish fleet outside Anglia, and knew we would not be able to defeat them with less ships, bad admirals and much worse naval techs. We now had to wait for Denmark to be occupied and drawn out of war. And NOW we put our reinforced fleet(Sweden/Aragon/Burgundy had built addittional ships)in the channel to protect a french invasion of England. 950 English WS go in for attack on our 1500 WS fleet, which is excellent in our eyes, but what happens when England attacks? France retreats its transport to save 90k troops and some lousy transports, which causes our whole fleet to retreat to seperate places. You know the rest of the story. Could also mention it is extremely difficult to organise 5 different fleets.

What could I had done more then this? Alright invaded Mexico earlier, but I did not realise I had the strenght to do this, accounting my reinforcing capability in that area was nothing like the english. I made some successfull raides, actually reaching Tenochtitlan once, but had to retreat with my 19k army back home, since england had transported 35k fresh troops from home, to reinforce his already 20k army or something there. All I could do now was to prevent England to recapture some stinking 2000 pop colonies in a horrible attrittion.

And I knew England was in trouble still when only me and France remained in war; They had 11 WE on the British islands! Though now Fredrik embargoed me, despite he had said earlier he wouldnt do it in a conflict. By now I hadnt really realised how much Englands income had dropped, and if I knew that he was on the brink of bankruptcy I would of course had continued the war, but its easy to be wise afterwards.

About alliances and other conflicts etc. As long as Burgundy's status as a major power is under a constant pressure from the English(trade embargoes, merchant limiting, colonial wars, naval blockades etc.)we have absolutely no space for fighting any other conflicts.
 
Owen said:
You think so? I think it would have been fine if Portugal had been played week in, week out. Even now, I don't think it's particularly bad, and most of western Europe seems to have rebuilt their fleets ready to have another, better crack at England.

I thought 1419 was good. I personally prefer playing this scenerio, otherwise *A New Order* as a title just doesnt cut it. Yes, a portugal would have been great, but portugals usually just sit to the side, colonize, or side with spain (in this case it was aragon). The thing is, we havent had a portugal perm, but now we have an ai portugal which is double its original size in iberia.

We also really, really needed a perm russia. With so many sessions of russia being subbed it was impossible for russia to establish a strong foreign policy. Just look at sibir. The fact that its 1737 and its still independent speaks for itself. ( The french king welcomes Iron as the new perm and we hope that he is able to change russian fortunes.)

Ya, thinks turned out weird, but isnt that what a new order is all about. Heh, look at me. Im france and i dont even own paris ~ yet im fine with the way things turned out. :p
 
Ironfoundersson said:
It is indeed strange that a country can have a major colonial base without a good navy.

1. Its non essential cause fance has the ability to maintain an army in her colonies without transporting troops from europe.

2.The strange thing is not that france has colonies without a navy. The strange thing is that no one has seemed to take them from me :D

3. Historically france was an amazing landpower anyways, and had colonies. he fleet was very ineffective against the english ~ the most powerful naval force.
 
World Conqueror said:
About alliances and other conflicts etc. As long as Burgundy's status as a major power is under a constant pressure from the English(trade embargoes, merchant limiting, colonial wars, naval blockades etc.)we have absolutely no space for fighting any other conflicts.
The three merchant limitation will continue for now, we are ready to disscuss it in a few years. It's that or an embargo atm, you'r choice :)
 
ForzaA said:
2) Events and DP's.
Now, this was something I could/should have known. But to be honest, I had not imagined the effect (or perceived effect) this would have. Historical events, even for the Ottoman Empire, overall are POSITIVE in nature, and certainly help in reaching "ideal" DP's (almost all extreme DP's are better than moderate DP's). Aragon, however, had all of one historical event. And even now, halfway through the 18th century, Aragon's DP's are far from ideal.
While not anyone's fault, it did add to my frustration.

3) England.
Not going into the "über" discussion. Whether or not England is/was über, it certainly LOOKED über, and Aragon certainly would NOT be able to do something if England did not want it to happen (Africa is like 80% coastline, in Italy, all provinces border the sea, and both my Capital and CoT are on the coast). Additionally, England held, and still holds (I'll admit this was because I attacked him- after he built a colony in Africa..) one of the most important provinces in Africa, namely Ivoria, not only that, it also meant that my entire "African plan" that is, holding all african ports to prevent exploration of the Indian ocean and Indonesia, was a failure.

.


1. I understand your qualms with the fact that the iberians didnt get any decent leaders for a number of years (mainly conqus and explorers). :(

2. In this game we have had the opprotunity at least 30 times to alter our DP settings. How is it that your settings are "far from ideal"? :confused:

3. So in other words, you trying to gain supremacy of africa was to halt expansion in asia? So you either planned to have asia untouched by europeans, or are you saying you then planned to take control of asia yourself? ~ If this is the case, it means you are quitting because you own pretty much all of africa, but dont have supremacy of asia? :p
 
Philip II said:
2. In this game we have had the opprotunity at least 30 times to alter our DP settings. How is it that your settings are "far from ideal"? :confused:
8 sliders, with max 10 moves on 1 slider, makes 80 needed slider moves, at worst... and Aragon was actually pretty close to the "worst" IMHO.

3. So in other words, you trying to gain supremacy of africa was to halt expansion in asia? So you either planned to have asia untouched by europeans, or are you saying you then planned to take control of asia yourself? ~ If this is the case, it means you are quitting because you own pretty much all of africa, but dont have supremacy of asia? :p

What I was saying is that it was *frustrating* to have done the investment ( building up colonies in Africa, POOR provinces) and not reaping any of the benefits.
 
ForzaA said:
8 sliders, with max 10 moves on 1 slider, makes 80 needed slider moves, at worst... and Aragon was actually pretty close to the "worst" IMHO..

Aragon starts out 4 clicks away from full naval (meaning it already is leaning towards naval at game start) and 7 clicks away from plutocracy (which would contribute to a better economy/cheaper WS).

You should have atleast ideal military settings or ideal economy settings. So i dont understand how your settings can be so out of wacked with what you want? :confused:


ForzaA said:
What I was saying is that it was *frustrating* to have done the investment ( building up colonies in Africa, POOR provinces) and not reaping any of the benefits.

Haha then you would have been the uber one who everyone was allying against


Forzaa plz dont quit :(
 
Btw, Vricklund and I discovered why the save file is suddenly so damn huge... for some odd reason, the event history has been multiplied with a damn large number, meaning that this part of the save is ~7 MB...

The tricky part will now be to sort out all the irrelevant data, while still keeping the correct eventhist. Our first attempt failed.