The problem is this: Ok they took the vows, what is there from keeping them disgarding them in the first place if they have the will and manage to have an army to enforce their claim?
My Monk Brother
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IF someone had a change of heart and thus broke his vows he'd at best be shunned by his peers. But then going on and trying to ursurp a kingdom? A title legitimized by god? AND getting any kind of support for that?
No way in hell.
I'd prefer to make it possible but not without consequences:
Last male of a dynasty is a monk but is the only legitimate heir? He may inherit
A monk decides he's had enough and tries to take his brothers kingdom? Guess what, automatic excommunication for breaking your vows, so such thing could potentially happen but fewer nobles would support the initial revolt and fewer still would like him on the throne
Last male of a dynasty is a monk but is the only legitimate heir? He may inherit
A monk decides he's had enough and tries to take his brothers kingdom? Guess what, automatic excommunication for breaking your vows, so such thing could potentially happen but fewer nobles would support the initial revolt and fewer still would like him on the throne
And? You went forth and Initiated a blood bath despite been a monk do you really care for excommunication that much.
You have the power to occupy the seat of the most powerful empire of Europe, by been backed by an equally powerful army, you turn your back on God in the first place and you care about legitimacy and God? He had the knights to back him for personal reasons and managed to usurp the throne. All things considered he could also impale the Pope and establish one of his own and crown him as well.
Open your minds people there are more shades than just black and white. You are playing alternate history, just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't happen in game.
Y penalties ofc should be implemented. Nor should it this be easy in the first place. But then you have the children of the Anti-Christ spawning with hand maidens from hell and we are discussing about a corrupted priest...
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Then a solution is pretty obvious - they shouldn't be removed, but nerfed.
You don't quite get, what I meant. If you try to gather support for your claim, you won't get any. Seriously...people back then were superstitious and feared the wrath of god. Helping someone who broke his oath to god was out of the question. But in this game such a person can gather 30.000 men - for free. He doesn't even have to pay them. Again: No way in hell.
Pilot00 is getting a little from what the case is here. In my game, England is certainly not some grandiose realm of power and respect. It's a crappy kingdom constantly wracked by plague and war at this point. Another important thing to note is that the only thing the monk serves to get from this is an excommunication, a bunch of pissed off vassals that resent him for casting off their elected king, and likely countless civil wars to try and bring a claimant backed by the dukes onto the throne. Also, he's not in a holy order. He's just a monk. It would serve him so much better to just live in a monastery than to try his luck with such a set of circumstances. The thing that strikes me the most about it is that England is elective, and kings who force their way onto an elective throne should get huuuuge opinion hits, but they don't. In fact, before he was killed, the vassals seemed fine with him being on the throne.
Cesare Borgia was a cardinal who went on to marry a princess and fight in wars. That was a bit later than CK2, but same sort of thing.
And the first pope after the Borgias went on and tried to erase any evidence that the Borgias ever existed.
Technically the second pope after Alexander VI. Pope Pius III was elected and allowed Cesare to keep his titles and role as Gonfalonier (sp?), a month after being elected Pius II died, and Julius II (archenemy of Alexander VI) formerly Cardinal della Rovere, was elected as pope. Which is why he you know tried to erase the evidence of the Borgias, he didn't do that because Cesare resigned from being Cardinal.
But as far as the game goes. A monk shouldn't be able to become an adventurer. But I'm all for the nobles backing a monk for the throne. If they're urging him to break his vows it'd make more sense then some random monk just waking up one morning and saying "BAM!" 30,000 warriors ready to conquer everything!
Pope Benedict IX is even within the time period of the game. He was elected pope age 20, proceeded to sell the Papacy to his godfather, then changed his mind and returned with an army to invade Rome and reclaim the Papacy. He is the only person to have ever been Pope more than once (he managed to do it three times), and like the Borgias he was infamously sexually active even while being Pope.
And that's not even getting into the Papal dark age and the Pornocracy, which also occurred during the game's timeframe. I think it's fair to say that we sometimes overestimate the piousness of the era.
My point was that if he can somehow pull it off against all ods it should be allowed to do so. He was supposedly a monk in a monastery, but he might have been a wandering 'monk' trying to find dissefranchised men to push his ambition. OFC the vassals should not be defacto happy neither should the religious rulers for that fact.
Absolutism of opinion usually has high chances of been in error. No way in hell is too strong a claim. How do you know this? Did you interviewd every single man of the period and he devulged you his darkest secrets? Or have you studied history so extensively to be able to claim so?
You seem not to know of many cases that Oaths were broken as the order of the day in these times. Was it serious? Yes it was.
Charlofsweden expressed it better than I ever could. If the Pope the highest moral authority of the time screwd around with his vows and found support imagine what could happen elsewere if gain was put on the table.
Basilissa Anna "Anachoutlou" (always wondered what that actually means) of Trebizond was a nun who took the throne by force with a retinue of Lazic troops.
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First of all I think there should be an ingame distinction between a character who was forced to take the vows and one who wanted to become a monk at age 14. Obviously forced monks should still be able to be ambitious, have bastards, claim titles, etc. while "true monks" should remain humble (at least most of the times).
The Popes and bishops who screwed around most likely weren't bishops because of their devotion to the Church but because of other reasons (power, wealth, privileges, idk). In CK2, a relative who wants power should ask for a title, not ask to become a simple monk.