Largest Income But Struggling To Keep Up In Tech - Why?
- Thread starter unmerged(88494)
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
That used to be true before IN, where after 89 provinces tech cost no longer increased based on country size. Now, after you get to 8 provinces, every prov. increases tech costs by the same amount, no matter how many you have. So the size of a country (beyond 8 provinces) is irrelevant to what is worthwhile taking. Larger countries are more able to take more provinces because of their higher census tax, but that's not what the thread is about.
Workshops will provide the same relative benefit to tax income and hence tech speed regardless of country size. e.g. if a 20 province England builds 20 workshops, and a 100 province England builds 100 workshops, they will increase tech speed the same amount (assuming equal cultural demographics and penalties).
But if each additional province increases tech cost the same amount, then that means that larger countries suffer a proportionally smaller hit than smaller countries. A 100 province country grabbing one additional province has the same marginal increase in tech cost, but a much smaller percentage increase than a 20 province state grabbing the same province.
Ah, thanks for that advice. When the time for a showdown between the Turks and Spain comes, I'll be ready to continue the Reconquista
I do need more colonists, though. Either that, or more manufactories and possibly more universities as well (I generally never have the time to save up for those, since I'm always putting up marketplaces, workshops, constables, forts and the like).
1. Do most people mint in order to get enough money for manufactories or simply save up for a few years?
2. What are the exact monetary benefits of having a core on a province? I think when Mexico finally cores I'll be a lot richer, but I'd like to at least know why...
3. I've got +4 towards Narrowminded (I'm nervous of going further, and plan to turn to Innovative eventually), so why do I have so few colonists? Do I need to move another slider?
1. Neither. I steal the money from weaker nations.
2. 90 % more taxes. Revolt risk also lowers income from a province. So a core will give you even more.
3. You can go fully narrowminded without falling behind in tech. But you have to compensate for it somehow. Keep your inflation at 0 (or as low as possible), go centralized and free subject and you will do fine as narrowminded.
Build/conquer costal COTs for more colonists. Get the NI that gives you one extra colonist and stay catholic during the reformation, if you want to max the total number of colonists you get each years.
I am not sure what pjcrowe is suggesting here. Is it sometimes good to spread your tech investments across all techs? I have always put all investment in one at a time. Is it better to expand in great spurts, cease expansion and catch up in tech and then expand again - as opposed to continual gradual expansion throughout the game? I have been doing the latter, limiting the number of colonies to 6 or less at one time or even fewer if I have a number of rebellious, newly conquered provinces to convert and pacify. I have tended to slow expansion when I start to fall behind in tech or get into a monthly budget deficit which is eating up a large amount of my annual taxes (I try to keep my minting modest and inflation no more than 3+%).
Regarding the recent discussion of workshops, is it accurate that once you have a workshop in every province you need to add one to each new province just to stay even in tech investment - there is no added benefit?
Last edited:
I tend to expand at a slow, steady pace myself. What I'm saying is that I hate when I'm about to complete a tech level, expand, and find it's now taking a few months longer to wait to finish that tech. I would have been better off waiting to complete the tech and then expand.
The *optimal* teching/expanding balance is what I suggested in the earlier post. Worst is waiting until you've almost finished lots of techs and then go on an expansion spree. Kind of like timing a bankrupcy: do it when you have the least amount of investments to lose.
-Pat
Now that I understand the effect of expansion on tech, that makes great sense. Thanks.
From some of the discussion, I wonder if there is a difference between conquered provinces and colonial provinces in the 1st 50 years (until you gain a core) and thereafter regarding economic/tech development? Something tells me that rapid expansion by conquest is easier than rapid expansion by colonizing. If so, why?
From some of the discussion, I wonder if there is a difference between conquered provinces and colonial provinces in the 1st 50 years (until you gain a core) and thereafter regarding economic/tech development? Something tells me that rapid expansion by conquest is easier than rapid expansion by colonizing. If so, why?
Last edited:
Ah thanks. I've discovered the strategy of taking the gold from weaker nations myself by now as well. I went to war with Venice, and a bunch of German minors; I didn't want the BB hit so I either vassalized them and took a fair amount of gold, or just took the gold.
As to what the Turks have to do with the Reconquista... the mission "Continue the Reconquista" has you conquer Tangiers, Ceuta, and Melilla. Oddly enough, somehow the Ottoman Empire got into a war with Morocco really early in my game, and took those provinces (now has some colonies down the coast of Africa, as well, and I see Turkish fleets all around the Med... it's a weird game).
Well, for a start, all colonies basically give all tax as monthly income, whilst production stays the same (assuming 100% tariffs). That means you'll miss out on census taxes largely from colonies, which doesn't affect tech per se except by limiting your investments. Cores don't make that much difference to colonial income as census tax is not high, and cores DO NOT affect monthly income. Contrary to above, revolt risk only decreases tax (monthly and yearly) for rr above the minimum revolt risk. So if you have a prov with 9% rr but a minimum of 7%, you'll only get a penalty as if you had 2% rr.
The advantage of conquest for a European nation with regards directly to research is that European provinces are much richer until the late game. Goods like cloth, wine, iron, even grain and fish are much more valuable than sugar, tobacco and coffee until ~1650. As well, they tend to have greater tax values.
It's not that colonisation is insuperior in advancing yourself in tech than conquering; it's that the provinces available for colonising are not as good as those you could conquer. Asap, I recommend colonising South Africa and hoping for gold, and try and get down to modern-day northern Argentina and southern Uruguay where the base tax is great. It's also a good way to conquer the gold rich Incas if they haven't been already.
If you are ahead in all techs spreading your tech out in the five areas can actually be beneficial so that you will not waste any tech cost by researching ahead of time. You tech does not really go slower if you are ahead, it just increases the amount needed. If you finish a tech ahead of time, you have actually wasted some investment because the price would have come down had you waited.
So why exactly do sugar, tobacco and coffee start being more profitable in ~1650 anyway? I heard before that it was 1550, but I could be mistaken (and as the #1 coloniser in my game, I'm not quite rolling in gold yet).
Next on the agenda (after this war with the Netherlands) is to drive the British back to the Atlantic (well... at least box them in on the coast), conquer the Chimu (the Incas were overthrown, much like the Aztecs; only this time the Chimu had time to get cores all over and solidify their land). Then colonise South America and North America, and selected parts of Africa (Ivory coast and St. Helena, then on to Cape; Gold Coast already taken by Ottomans).
Next on the agenda (after this war with the Netherlands) is to drive the British back to the Atlantic (well... at least box them in on the coast), conquer the Chimu (the Incas were overthrown, much like the Aztecs; only this time the Chimu had time to get cores all over and solidify their land). Then colonise South America and North America, and selected parts of Africa (Ivory coast and St. Helena, then on to Cape; Gold Coast already taken by Ottomans).
Because of they dynamic demand-supply system, though supply is more or less irrelevant to the player. The biggest thing that drives demand is building province improvements- marketplaces, customs houses and manufactuaries are the best, but all boost demand a little. However, unless the player is massive, you generally need to wait for the PC to expand and build improvements to see a noticeable increase. About 1650 is when most improvements have been built in many provinces.
It has nothing to do with a particular date, and everything to do with various buildings being built around the world. Each province in the world creates a certain amount of demand for each trade good, and the total demand for each good is the sum of all these provincial demands. A province's demand for various goods will be vastly higher if it contains any of various buildings. There's a tooltip for each good showing what these modifiers are. There are things beyond buildings that impact demand as well: demand for wine, frex, is much higher in provinces with a revolt risk of 3% or more, compared to provinces with lower rr. Demand for metals is higher when the province owner is at war or if the owner has at least one ART regiment.
-Pat
Then, I would expect that there are predictable periods when there is a marked jump in demand and prices, such as when marketplaces become generally available. I remember reading somewhere that marketplaces in particular significantly increase demand. Marketplaces are available at Trade level 21. So might I expect a jump in demand and prices after that technology becomes generally available?
Yes, but... the AI is not as thourough as the human player at building province improvements everywhere.
-Pat
-Pat
Usually those jumps in price happen, as mentioned, after certain buildings become available. The AI is usually behind in tech, and isn't particularly good at building things, but if they get a good period of peace and profit, they'll start building all sorts of things. This just happens a bit later than the player can in most cases. Usually by 1650-1700 most provinces have at least a few buildings in them. This is about the time that prices really start to jump, or at least from my experience.
What are some of the best strategies used by players for rapid expansion that allow you to keep up in tech?
Well, this might not be the best strategy, but early, selective expansion and colonisation (only going for rich provinces, especially in northern Italy) allowed me to get a fair technological lead.
After that, I went for major colonisation and some conquests, and voila, now I've got a fair empire and still have a lead in tech.
The answer is that rapid conquest can potentially yield you some nice wealthy high income provinces early. Colonial provinces usually start out poor and then come into their own later in the game, it's a longer term investment.
As was mentioned in the discussion about technology, the cost of technologies scale upwards based on the number of provinces you have. The result is that, as a rule of thumb, instead of worrying about how many provinces you have, it's more useful to think about your average income per province. If your conquest or other expansion is increasing your average income per province, you will be more productive overall and should be researching faster, all other things being equal, whereas if your expansion drops your average income per province, you will be researching slower. Incidently, this is why some of the OPM's do so well in the tech race, especially the good traders like Lubeck, their income per province is usually very high. This also means that conquering that crappy base tax 1 province with fish for their trade goods is usually not worth it, at least from a purely economic perspective (note: vassalize it instead for extra income with none of the extra costs, vassals are great!).
So, when trying to decide whether to go on an early conquering spree, you want to consider the income generated in the provinces and go for the high-income targets. Next, consider the negative modifiers to income that might occur if you conquer it:
-non-core?
-different religion?
-differnt culture group / non-accepted culture?
These are the most important factors, if the answers are yes to these questions the province is probably going to be a drain on your economy and you should think twice about whether its worth conquering, or you should consider making it a vassal instead. On the other hand, if it's a high income, same religion, same culture group (or accepted culture) province, it's definitely a worthwhile target. If you can somehow get a core on the province through event, mission or spying, even better. This is actually where the culture map and religion map is very useful, expanding to the border of your culture group or religion is often a very good idea, and only after that go colonizing.
The same principles apply to colonizing by the way, you want the provinces with the lucrative trade goods like sugar, spice, etc. That colony on some island rock full of fishermen, however, is probably not worth it, unless for purely strategic reasons, e.g. as a naval base to launch expeditions to more lucrative areas.
Returning to your original question, it seems odd to me that you are having trouble keeping up, especially with Spain at 34% inflation (I did read that right, didn't I, they are at 34% inflation and you are around 3%?). Is your high income new, i.e. did they have higher income than you for most of the game? If so, you should start catching up over the coming decades. Other factors to consider is just that they have much more lucrative provinces than you (which sounds likely), are religiously unified, are culturally unified, have a higher proportion of core provinces, have less revolt risk, have higher stability, have more/better buildings (market, refineries, etc), have lower inflation, have better sliders, and better economic national ideas than you (I think this is a pretty exhaustive list of all the factors that affect income, but I may have missed one or two!). If none of these explain it, then I'd suggest it's probably just a 'need more time to catch up issue,' so keep pushing your average income per province upward and you should start catching up and then moving ahead.
Usually in my expansionist games I only really start moving ahead in the tech race after my income is way way higher than my closest competitors. Just being at about the same income level as them is often only enough to stop yourself from falling further behind, maybe to also start slowly closing the gap. It's certainly enough to stay caught up in a couple out of the six tech areas, so be sure to prioritize which tech areas are most important to you and focus your research dollars there.
Last edited:
The Spanish inflation was at 34% for a period of time. It has dropped substantially since. My income has been greater than Spain's for much of the game. It is now about 1650. I stopped expanding and am catching up with Spain, but not France.
Thanks for the overview. It is very helpful. Where in the interface do you get info that gives you a sense of average income per per province? I am not certain about the effects of different religions and cultures on the economy. Where is some good info on that?
As far as maximizing research, JimboOmega earlier suggested letting stability increase "naturally" if it is at +2, instead of stopping research and increasing it immediately. I've tried that and it is definitely helpful. In 1632 I took a hit and found out it would take until 1672 for it to increase naturally. However, I periodically get +1 stab bonuses from events, which I hardly ever used because I have always kept stab at +3. That brought it up to +3 fairly quickly. Meanwhile, my trading remained stable at +2 stability. In the last two decades I have saved well more than a year of research as a result.
Thanks for the overview. It is very helpful. Where in the interface do you get info that gives you a sense of average income per per province? I am not certain about the effects of different religions and cultures on the economy. Where is some good info on that?
As far as maximizing research, JimboOmega earlier suggested letting stability increase "naturally" if it is at +2, instead of stopping research and increasing it immediately. I've tried that and it is definitely helpful. In 1632 I took a hit and found out it would take until 1672 for it to increase naturally. However, I periodically get +1 stab bonuses from events, which I hardly ever used because I have always kept stab at +3. That brought it up to +3 fairly quickly. Meanwhile, my trading remained stable at +2 stability. In the last two decades I have saved well more than a year of research as a result.
Last edited: