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thanks all of you. it was fun to play with you :)

to SGA:

France declared war in the beginning of 1710's, and i prefered not to fight and gave north american trade center and Delaware, and Holland cancelled our trade aggreement.
I tried to develope the economy as much as possible while reaching the others in tech- 5 trade manufactories were built, navy was expanded a little, Grampians converted to anglican faith, few more colonies and cities were built.
Concantrated most heavily on trade and increased trade efficiency to 95% with some monopolies around the world, so England has a nice income now :cool: (it was much easier to develope trade while others were in war :D )
I was going to join Sweden-Ottoman Empire and Portugal in their war against France-Austria-Russia-Poland-Spain and Netherlands but i decided to leave the decision to you as we were coming to the end.
The situation of the war (as far as i know): Poland lost the war against Sweden and signed a peace, Russia too. Holland's fleet was destroyed. Ottoman Empire is in a hard situation, Sweden and Portugal is strong on the other hand.

see you all later :)
 
A short disorganized essay I felt like writing:

About EU2 as game of balance of power: The reason to why I enjoy EU2 when it is played like this (which obviously isn't the case of the last 100 years in ER2 ;)), is that anyone who gets very strong also obtains a higher risk of losing his position. Hence, most deviations in acceptable power ratings will eventually disappear if players are willing to switch alliances etc., to do what's ever necessary to pick on the most successful nations. I feel not just the game EU2 benefits from this concept; it is usually a fundamental strategy is most strategy games that are played for victory; ie. to make sure you have no opponent that you could not defeat yourself with minimal amount of assistance. Okay, it may be silly to expect Venice to defeat OE alone, but it should at all times aim to keep ally defeatable with as few forces as possible.

The problem in EU2 counter-acting BoP play is that victory is very subjective, and in-gme VP points are for the most part totally unusuable. It takes skill and experience to notice the true power balances in EU2 and to judge success, and in a semi-newbie game as EU2 BoP concepts tend to vapourize into thin air. :) I don't claim to have reached this level myself either; I failed to see such a strong France and I failed to see such a steep decline of OE.

If we instead of a BoP game would play EU2 as a game of personal success of one's own nation only; not relatively to the successes/failures of other nations, we risk to run into the situation we now have in ER2. (I also take the oppertunity to conclude ER2 is definately not a BoP game in its current state.) I have not played strict BoP play myself; hell, I too pushed OE too far in my early urge to conquer territory from Austria, and hence I fed a future giant France. In my defence, I can say I have tried to resolve the situation, unlike others *whistling*. I sacrificed the überness of my own country in the progress, and when defeat came I stood by it (anyone remember the big war around 1620-1630?). The goal was not to invade Austria; it was just to weaken France, which nicely fitted the BoP theory. The problem for Austria was that he got in the line of war due to his choice of alignment, but he also prevailed against the "evil invasion" as I'm sure he saw it.

After the first defeat, I could stand a second one. However, when I faced the same problem a third time tonight and when no visible way to eliminate it emerged the game risked to become delusional for the sentenced losers. I have not reached that mental point; in fact some nations will always lose as time progrsses (probably me in this case ;)), and I am prepared for it. It's just that, to fight at impossible conditions every single time since date X time isn't fun for anyone in my position. One might argue Austria fought like that vs OE long ago, and it is partially correct in the sense OE had a sizeable advantage. However, it was probably more of a function of a Spain not being able to keep check on France earlier, because an Austria with proper funding and cover from France can do some serious damage on incoming armies if handled properly in warfare.

If we step back just to talk about general power balance again based on the current situation of ER2, Sweden should be marginally cut back territory wise, and so should OE. Poland shouldn't have been so hopelessly underdeveloped by now, and Austria should perhaps have had some more land. I say 'perhaps' here because an Austria in the absence of a Prussia will inevitably be very powerful in everything but its economy. Furthermore, it is never good for one single major nation to control Italy; here a Venice could have been very useful. In fact, I start to think Chas should have played Venice instead of Denmark originally (on the condition that Prussia was played). I dare to say England has had way too little influence in this game early on. NL should somehow have been introduced earlier with better chances of greater economic development etc.

In the end, the list can get long, but no game will ever be perfect. ER2 is no exception; we must live with it. From the disadvantaged nations' point of view there is now a very large game breaking alliance around, and you'll have to admit there probably is problem. I don't say it's wrong to play game of cooperation, but if it is this case you may do so indefinately while fighting wars you can't (or at least should not) be proud of winning, you should consider thinking over your alignments a bit.

What would/could have been better now for me if I hadn't played this game as BoP in the first place? Certainly, there was a point where I and France would have been able to carve up Austria between us. We didn't; there was simply no honour of fighting such a war where the outcome was very much given. Unfortunately, so far all the efforts of the surviving Austria have been aimed at the Ottoman Empire, and none have befell France. If OE and France had equal possibilities of success at the start, now one hasn't if all other things remain equal. Admittedly, I have failed my diplomacy and strategy here.

I suspect France now thinks he is just as chivalrous as when declining annexation of Austria when he fights the biggest threat to his alliance instead of smaller ones. I don't blaim him at all, OE is (or rather was) a threat to be reckoned with. It is only logical for France to target OE instead of its subdued neighbours. The final responsibility cannot even be put on the neighbouring nations, whether they were blindfolded the rise of France or not, and what it has meant to us all; the losers are everybody actually. France can hardly attack an opposing alliance together with his and claim it is a war of equal odds. Austria has no reason to trust the OE, and why would it fight France now when it has become so powerful even when the Sultan ensures peace in south? Spain would get slaughtered (again) as it is now if it stood alone. England surrendered quickly in its war this session, and that's no surprise either.

Everyone seems to act in self interest and self preservation... but do we really? Is it desirable to have a France that noone can beat? Think for yourselves my dear friends, and France may almost have to fight some remotely even wars in the future.

The answer to how we came here: Courage, or rather the lack of it. I am not innocent, but neither are the nations in Europe that most of all hold the balance of power in their hands, and could cause shifts to make the gameplay more enjoyable to most of us.*


* I am aware that I throughout the text make the assumption close to equal wars = more fun than incredibly warped wars in balance. If you don't agree with this, then the current setup with one big alliance forever picking on and winning against a smaller one may suit you, provided you are on the powerful side. ;)

PS. (Text I can't fit in anywhere.) I do sincerely believe you may be right when you force Sweden back from Danzig and OE back from Steirmark. What disturbs me is since this hardly is a result of an even war. I don't know whether I should feel honoured or displeased that I always caue such an upheaval and men-at-arms situation with the entire of Europe rallying against me for simply letting Sweden fighting its war where it has a chance in terms of game stats (not player skills here). :rolleyes: In the end, I guess I should have played a smaller nation that has a higher tolerance for success among neighbours.
 
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molian said:
Ottoman Empire is in a hard situation, Sweden and Portugal is strong on the other hand.

see you all later :)

This is mainly because the greater percentage of Austrian forces and a significant percentage of French forces are attached to my front, coupled with some Spaniards, and previously Russians. ;)
 
ok , a lot has been said, and a lot of Sweden was in it. I will say something now about they acusation of rule braking, Which has litteraly stunned me.

-Sweden DOWED the alliance Austria and Poland
-After some years, and repeated warnings of not interfering, Russia Dows Sweden...Making it a seperate war
-France Spain and NL join into the fun (how fair ;) ) Poland is beaten, took cot and prov, Peace with the ALLIANCE signed
-Russia, after first having quite a high ws on our alliance, is being pushed back hard, very hard (moscow burning and occupied) accepts peace of two provs
-But thnx to Austria dowing OE and oe inviting me, i get major stab hit since the treaty, some badthinking people might suspect evil intend in this :mad:

Current situation:
Austria and France are killing OE, not sure what porto did all this time, and Spain is annoying me in Asia and im trying to put my now free army on to use for pressure on the Austrian border, knowing it will be futile with the MP of Fra and Aus awaiting me in a short period.

So: Essential point: HOW can you actually think Russia was the same war? He was actually winning (only thnx to succeses on OE front SINCE OE was being beaten hard by the ubber coalition) . but since my limited forces came free in the south, i could walk over him with a smile :D

Also for Swedens sake, Poland was already a unplayble nation and is only used by you iron to weaken Sweden, not by polands hand, but by yours. Sweden is protecting fellow protestant believers and you will have to occupy Stockholm before i will ever give them back to the brutalitys the poles are known for.

And i agree with Chainy that this game is far unbalanced. Sweden is in nice shape (getting poor now thnx to war but good shape ;) ) But at least all my neighbours have TRIED to take me down, I have yet to see a first war of even half of France his neighbours against him.
 
I'll shortly react on Petter's and Seen's words.

The fact this game is unbalanced is caused by many factors. You mentioned some of them. I think it'd be worthless to enumerate them here again. Also, responsibility is not the thing we should resolve now. But question is, whether it is possible to do something about so called BoP now. If we look in the past, there was similar situation as is with France now. But OE was the bad guy. Nobody was willing to face you in direct war. And everybody was doing nothing (except me bitching on OE in this thread :p). You might say it was different, because "OE was only going to decline in the future". But it was not possible to face OE in direct war without support from others. And that's, as it seems, case with France now.

Seen, fact that Austria (and in this war France) is on side of Poland is only natural. To keep you in state of BoP vs Austria/Poland/Russia. That is the same problem when you object Austrian gains in Germany. Because you want to keep me weaker so you are able to fight me, not only fear me. This is in more or less case of every neighbours' relation.

To the 4 province rule: I say dont apply it to Sweden. They fought different wars with different enemy. I'd be applicable only in the opposite situation, when both Poland and Russia are fighting one enemy - Sweden.
 
Hehe, fun to see how much you can argue about this game :rolleyes:

Well, i think it was fun session, eventhou the evil swedes took my COT. I couldn't really do much about it, since my weak forces was outnumbered about 1 : 4 from the beginning.

Each time i tried to make more, Seen smiply slaugthered them. So i decided to yield at 1 stab, since it had taken we 15 years to get from -3 to +3.

Maybe that was to early, but for me to have any chance, i need to focuse on my techlevels, and i can't do that while increasing stab and fightning a sure-to-loose-war.

Is the game unbalanced......maybe. But what did you expect. We are 10 players, and how many AI european players are left? 2 or 3. So stop bitching and conquer some land. Atleast i have respeckt for Seen doing something, since you apparently have been at peace for 150 years before i joined.
 
Aladar said:
Is the game unbalanced......maybe. But what did you expect. We are 10 players, and how many AI european players are left? 2 or 3. So stop bitching and conquer some land. Atleast i have respeckt for Seen doing something, since you apparently have been at peace for 150 years before i joined.
Nobody was at peace for such long time. Seen is in war every session, me probably too and others...I think they either :D
 
Seen said:
Current situation:
Austria and France are killing OE, not sure what porto did all this time

Porto was busy burning my trading post in Somalia :) Waste of time and troops I would say. VE, what are you trying to do, make me sign peace? I believe you should know I would never do that, since it was you and SGA I fought with against Sweden and Denmark and I had no chance...it was terrible thing to do, but I didnt wanna dishonour alliance. Can't say I helped in that war much but I was keeping theirs troops busy and getting killled under Amsterdam instead London. Not for long tho...:)
Same thing here...nobody is invading tho, Seen sent me 48k troops to Friesen. Defeated me 3 times and then retreated with 8k troops. You did same with 18k, I let you take fort, enjoy attrition and then send you back home. Then you go to Somalia in atept to make my poor NL even more poor. Well nice, but again what do you think you will accomplish? You lost Lisabon and Tago to France. I doubt Somalia was worth it.
As for destroying my fleet...at the start I had 70 warships and few galleys...bigger swedish fleet run to docks and avoided fight in Baltic so I retreated. After that, Porto and Swedish fleet blocked Holland so I decided to take fight, defeat which left me 20 warships...like 15 mins later my naval reached 30 and portos 70 ships where moving to Lisaboa to engage Spanish I presume. SO, I left docks and defeated 140+ swedish ships with 20 mine. One battle happened with Porto too I believe (70 vs. 20 ships) and after it he left Channel. After those victories I headed to Baltic, just to ecounter 250 swedish ships (give it or take it a few) and lost those 20 warships of mine. That was celebrated in Sweden as NL's fleet destruction. Not saying that it wasn't, but considering state in which NL and Sweden are you should (with Porto) make my fleet unnoticable...not run from it until it was 10 ships on 1 dutch ship :p
I wont even mention that bettle in Afars when 900 Dutch beat 12k of Portugese ;)

Anyways thank you both VE and Seen for fun. I doubt I will ever recover from this war but its fun :) Thats what I wanted to say to all those complaining about balance of forces...hey, if I can fight Porto and Sweden and not cry about it (it was one of most interesting sessions for me) why do you have to? :)
Hate to see NL in state like this, as Enigma said it should be introduced earlier...it sucks like this, but its a challenge. When I started I checked Victory points and was on 79th place. Now Im on 9th, trying to catch up with Russia (need like 100 more to do that). No SP game (unless with total crapy nation) can be challenging as this, not for me at least. And thats the best part :)

I was glad Denmark was AI (guessing it will prolly join Swedish alliance in war)
and there is England...glad molian decided to wait too. Damn, Porto and Sweden ships where enough for me, not to mention England :)
 
Seen said:
ok , a lot has been said, and a lot of Sweden was in it. I will say something now about they acusation of rule braking, Which has litteraly stunned me.

The rule breaking is of course up to interpreation and not very clear, I don't believe you did it intentionally and I don't think any punishment is needed if it is interpreted as rule breaking. It was just something that occured to me while discussing some things with Chaingun after the game :)

Seen said:
-Sweden DOWED the alliance Austria and Poland
-After some years, and repeated warnings of not interfering, Russia Dows Sweden...Making it a seperate war
-France Spain and NL join into the fun (how fair ;) ) Poland is beaten, took cot and prov, Peace with the ALLIANCE signed
-Russia, after first having quite a high ws on our alliance, is being pushed back hard, very hard (moscow burning and occupied) accepts peace of two provs
-But thnx to Austria dowing OE and oe inviting me, i get major stab hit since the treaty, some badthinking people might suspect evil intend in this :mad:
France and friends ony entered the war when OE entered the war on the swedish side. And the entry of OE would make it a rematch of the last war between OE/SWE vs AUS/POL/RUS, which was one by SWE/OE and I would have expected similar results. Too bad Poland peaced so quickly.

And I think Austria suffered from the same treaty breaking stab hits.


Seen said:
So: Essential point: HOW can you actually think Russia was the same war? He was actually winning (only thnx to succeses on OE front SINCE OE was being beaten hard by the ubber coalition) . but since my limited forces came free in the south, i could walk over him with a smile :D

That is all up to interpretation. Russia tries to take advantage of Swedens focus on Poland. Whether it was only to gain provinces or also to help Poland I don't know, I'm going for the second interpretation seeing the history of poland and Russia.

Seen said:
Also for Swedens sake, Poland was already a unplayble nation and is only used by you iron to weaken Sweden, not by polands hand, but by yours. Sweden is protecting fellow protestant believers and you will have to occupy Stockholm before i will ever give them back to the brutalitys the poles are known for.

I never pushed very hard for any edits for Poland, inflation cut yes, dp moves and infra up to 5 no. I was quite surprised that was accepted without comments from others. Before the loss of those to provinces two Sweden it was still in a reasonable shape, now their shape is quite questionable.


Seen said:
And i agree with Chainy that this game is far unbalanced. Sweden is in nice shape (getting poor now thnx to war but good shape ;) ) But at least all my neighbours have TRIED to take me down, I have yet to see a first war of even half of France his neighbours against him.

I actually expected a heavy war from the naval countries plus OE when I DoWed England. Never expected England to give in so easily and virtually no reaction from others... :confused:


EDIT: I think it will be hard if not impossible to force Sweden to the peace table as you control Baltic.
 
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@ Tile and others who thing my tactics are strange. :rolleyes:

Basically looking back on it I joined the war too early, my fleet was mainly in China at the time and the same with my army, so I had to peace Manchu quicker than I wanted to, making me lose more men than I could afford.

So when I finally joined the war I only had 50k men, 100 cannons and 170 warships half of which were in India and China. I dicided to invade spain and la Plata with men backed up with ships, but when 40k men and 200 cannons beat back my men in Sevile, I knew there was no point fighting spain, so me and daniel *peaced* each other promising not to engage or fight.

So what do I do now? well I couldn't get my ships through the med with 100 *friendly* Spanish ships sitting in the Straits so I 1st thought I'll invade Holland and take somilia then fighting up through the holy land and helping the OE in the balkans. But the war in Somilia was slowed down by first Zimbarbwe revolting and forcing me to release them and then India revolting. So 1/4 of my force was on rebel duty so I wouldn't lose my CoT or India to rebels.

Finally when I got about 200 ships together I dicided to go kick the french fleets ass, thinking they were in Biscay or in the Channel area stopping the Swedish fleet from joining up with me. So I took 100 ships to join up with my ships in England and go find the french and when they had joined up, France had moved in their fleet, dropped 170k men and 200 cannons in Tago (4 times all my men and cannons together :eek: ) and retreated into Lisaboa. My fleet got there in time to see the French fleet just get into harbour and Tago and Porto in flames. And that I'm afraid without Swedish or OE help will be the end of my war. ;)

Edit: Oyes, I'll add why I think this game is unbalaced (tieing in with what Enigma has said)

The one big problem of this game was Enigma attacking Austria every 10 years to get a nice shinney vassal, fair play to him but this is the core of our problems. Edoren playing a great game vs OE never let Engima get so far that he could vassalize him and just lost key provinces to be later regained. But the constant warring of the OE forced (in my eyes) Austria into the arms of France, selling Brabant (I believe) for peace and an alliance.

Together with this, we have had a very week England, with SGA missing often. This meant there was no real threat from the north or colonially against France. Englands weakness in trade also opened the door for a very trade orintated OE and Sweden who dominated trade along with Portugal for the first 200 year before Spain and France started to catch up. Also with a weak NL with Austrian maps and weak trade, this all meant for a stronger Sweden and OE than is normal. Even I have expected to be pounced on by NL and England to catch up for lost time...

Another factor is Elio's Poland and Chas' Denmark. Elio (don't we all love him) had built up a fairly good nation until the lithuanian enheritans and when Seen attacked Poland, Elio not wanting to give up give up (at all) racked up inflation which was futher increased when Austria and Russia attacked him. Chas' Denmark on the other hand was very strong until SGA came back seeing NA was partly orange allied with me and Tile wanted to push back Scandinavian holdings in Indonesia and NA. Denmark was defeated soundly and this caused the loss of all Denmarks holdings in NA. Sweden on the other hand was untouched and Portugal was betrayed later by England when invaded by Sweden. So so far we have a very Strong Sweden and OE and France...

So people either support a strong France or strong Sweden and OE, but OE I think went into decline with the loss of hungary to Austria, if it had stiermark or not. Unfortunatly Sweden was expanding to much and forced more Russia and Poland together even when Elio leaft because of Russia and Austria attacking him, but instead of furthing this he pushed them together by invading Russia and Poland Austria with the help of OE...

So that is how we are now in this mess and I think it is incurable and will lead a very boring game for some parties for the next 100 years.

And BTW, why Portugal is fighting with the Swedish and not Spain isn't an issue and the true fact will never see daylight. :D
 
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Van Engel said:
Finally when I got about 200 ships together I dicided to go kick the french fleets ass, thinking they were in Biscay or in the Channel area stopping the Swedish fleet from joining up with me. So I took 100 ships to join up with my ships in England and go find the french and when they had joined up, France had moved in their fleet, dropped 170k men and 200 cannons in Tago (4 times all my men and cannons together :eek: ) and retreated into Lisaboa. My fleet got there in time to see the French fleet just get into harbour and Tago and Porto in flames. And that I'm afraid without Swedish or OE help will be the end of my war. ;)

:D

You sailed just passed me, you in the Biscay seazone, me in the zone right of it. I was just going into Biscay when i saw the big portugees fleet moving there.
 
Good post Chaingun (#1202).

I see the current situation as a result of the unstability of England and Spain and the almost nonexistance of coordination between Spain and Austria. And of course diplomacy.

I don't think France uberness was assured before the SPA/OE vs FRA/AUS war of the 1630s. If you could have gotten Austria on your side OE would have been the uber country.

BTW Sweden is the also uber in its own region no combinatin of two of his neighbours can win from Sweden imho. No other country can touch him in Scandinavia due to the naval superiority.

Chaingun said:
* I am aware that I throughout the text make the assumption close to equal wars = more fun than incredibly warped wars in balance. If you don't agree with this, then the current setup with one big alliance forever picking on and winning against a smaller one may suit you, provided you are on the powerful side.

Yes more or less equal wars are more fun. Maybe I shouldn't have taken Spain into my alliance but then again I was expecting a big war against France for quite a while now.

Chaingun said:
PS. (Text I can't fit in anywhere.) I do sincerely believe you may be right when you force Sweden back from Danzig and OE back from Steirmark. What disturbs me is since this hardly is a result of an even war. I don't know whether I should feel honoured or displeased that I always caue such an upheaval and men-at-arms situation with the entire of Europe rallying against me for simply letting Sweden fighting its war where it has a chance in terms of game stats (not player skills here). In the end, I guess I should have played a smaller nation that has a higher tolerance for success among neighbours.

If the swedish-OE alliance would have been dissolved that might not have happened every time. I think OE can defend itself against its two main neighbour (Austria and Russia) and Sweden can defend itself against three of its four neighbours (as shown by the previous swedish war). Other countries might be interested in alliances...
 
Ironfoundersson said:
Yes more or less equal wars are more fun. Maybe I shouldn't have taken Spain into my alliance but then again I was expecting a big war against France for quite a while now.
Which will not happen with Sweden and OE together. For wars to be even we need 3 major alliances, instead of 2 blocks when all is changing is who the colonials fight for and against.

Ironfoundersson said:
If the swedish-OE alliance would have been dissolved that might not have happened every time. I think OE can defend itself against its two main neighbour (Austria and Russia) and Sweden can defend itself against three of its four neighbours (as shown by the previous swedish war). Other countries might be interested in alliances...
And that is why a proposed my idea a few post back, unfortunatly it got hardly any attention... :rolleyes:
 
Chaingun said:
I and Ironfoundersson are discussing about how to interpret province loss limit right now. Biggest issue is whether the gains Sweden made should be counted as concluded versus open and that you would as such lie on a -5 province limit. Second is whether Polish and Russian wars should be thought of as connected, in which case Sweden took one 1p prov too much.

As for game balance I do have to agree with VE it's a bit silly to have seen Western Europe lying at peace for the last 150 years...

In post 961 I took up the difficulty of interpreting the less than perfectly formulated Rule no 2 in post 1. I offered a suggestion of a more clear wording. This is what I wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
13. RULE 2

A am a little unsure what it says. I have tried to rephrase the rule as I believe it should be interpreted:

"Regarding losing provinces in peace treaties to other human players or AI vassals of human players, the rule is: for all wars that a nation is involved in at one exact moment this nation can lose at most provinces worth up to 8 points, where
COT/GOLD province in Europe/Asia = 4p
Other province in Europe/Asia = 2p
COT/Gold province outside this area = 2p
Other province outside this are = 1

This means that if Nation A at one moment is involved in three separate wars with nation B, C and D respectively, and then concludes a peace treaty with nation B, giving B provinces worth 8 points, then nation C and D can not gain any provinces at all from A as a result of their current wars with A.

[I also suggested some rules for defining what Europe and Asia means]

--------------------------------------------------

In post 975 the co-GM Ironfoundersson replied that this suggestion was a correct interpretation. You did not object. Thus for me this became the accepted interpretation of rule 2. Why the current wording in post 1 was not replaced by my proposal I do not know.

Anyhow, I believe my suggested and by Iron explicitly and by you implicitly accepted interpretation of the rule makes it very easy to decide what is right and what is wrong in the current situation.

The rule means you can gain any number of provinces, it only puts a limit on how many provinces you can lose. And that limitation is easy to calculate. You just need to know about the dates of different nations entering and leaving wars.
 
About the everlasting OE-Swedish alliance. Yes, it maybe shouldnt have stayed this long, but we where left no choise. Austria kept a continious (and rightfull) pure intrest in northern germany and its cores in Hungary. It never looked to the west or south (italy) and wasnt pursuaded to do so (which of course i did try ;) ). Same with Russia, of course he would never ally a nation that has ingermanland or his cot in astrakhan. Poland could have, but my hatred against it (not personal ;) ) prevented me from doing so (and it was backward of course would only give me negative ws). OE btw always stayed neutral and sometimes even hostile against sweden with my plans of further expansion at expense of Poland. But i never made it a secret to all I wanted a closed baltic (and especially a european cot).

Yes iron, as said, I see I am not a weak nation, i said myself that I do see myself as strong. But i have continiously fought for it, almost all sessions I have at least seen one war, and most of the time very long wars. And obviously the english war was over before it actually begun, if SGA had played, maybe things would have went difrent, but i still have high hopes for the next session :p

And Aladar, im sure you wont be bored ;)

PS: and btw, i see this as a nice friendly good discussion, nothing in my words must be taken as offensive or insulting (or whining ;) !! :D
 
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Ironfoundersson said:
If the swedish-OE alliance would have been dissolved that might not have happened every time.

Really, I don't view the Swedish-OE alliance as such a big problem as French-Austrian. It's also untruthful to say it has been there for a long time: I have allied Spain once until it got crushed by France. I've allied Portugal from time to time. I've allied Denmark. I've had a defensive alliance with Poland. Early in the game I allied France. I've been close to allying England. Surely, Sweden has stayed a constant ally ever since the 1630s, but that's because I have no real possibility (not to mention the usual nullified reasons) to fight it - at all (very much unlike Austria-France or Spain-France). What would I do? Send a fleet to the Baltics where it gets beaten by his fleet? March an army through Russia to die in attrition? In an extremely hostile environment I'm glad to have one real ally, compared to the buckloads of enemies or potential enemies I have: France, Austria, Russia, England, Portugal, Spain, Poland that I for various reasons can clash with.

OE and Sweden's expansive interests have actually collided at times; make a guess about why I had no real incentive to fight this session, though the meddling of Russia forced me to. Sweden has in general been the one to initiate conflicts (as in planning, not making the actual DoW). I think people get the wrong impression that we're always fighting together, but rather it is the situations that create the necessary engagement.

Ironfoundersson said:
I think OE can defend itself against its two main neighbour (Austria and Russia)

Once again I am not of the same opinion. The Austria in this game when funded is more powerful than OE alone. How do I come to this conclusion? It has more manpower, better tech, better leaders, a better geographic compact shape, and I'm sure there's more I could add to that list. Russia is worse off, but it's a joke a properly played and funded Austria wouldn't be able to defend itself or Poland (provided no two front war), and it could probably even go offensive. I am not complaining now, it seems Ederon is more of a HoI player so it is natural if I'm slightly better in EU2 warfare with my more ongoing games per week etc. ;) Unfortunately my advantage in that area was a bit tampered due to be computer setup yeasterday. OE + Sweden as a combined opponent is perhaps worse, but I gave Russia an option to let Sweden fight an in my opinion fair war alone against Aus and Pol.

I'll use my Austria in Battlefront Europe as additional material to prove my point about how this game is a bit weird. I have had and do continue to enjoy monetary support from Spain in that game, but I don't think it will invalide what I know will say. In a game with hostile France, Brandenburg, OE, Denmark and Sweden, I've managed to remain in a battleworthy condition to the 1650s. I can defeat OE in a 1 vs 1 if I'm funded, though admittedly that OE is not as strong as the one in ER2. France I can't beat 1 vs 1, but that's what I use my allies Venice and Spain for. My manpower is at 120; at lot less than the Austria in ER2; the conclusion can only be Austria has an EU2 nation is very capable in limited wars once it has consolidated the HRE. Any failure of it is more likely to be caused by good coordination among enemies; many times I had my WE each 10.
 
Daniel A said:
In post 961 I took up the difficulty of interpreting the less than perfectly formulated Rule no 2 in post 1. I offered a suggestion of a more clear wording. This is what I wrote:

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13. RULE 2

A am a little unsure what it says. I have tried to rephrase the rule as I believe it should be interpreted:

"Regarding losing provinces in peace treaties to other human players or AI vassals of human players, the rule is: for all wars that a nation is involved in at one exact moment this nation can lose at most provinces worth up to 8 points, where
COT/GOLD province in Europe/Asia = 4p
Other province in Europe/Asia = 2p
COT/Gold province outside this area = 2p
Other province outside this are = 1

This means that if Nation A at one moment is involved in three separate wars with nation B, C and D respectively, and then concludes a peace treaty with nation B, giving B provinces worth 8 points, then nation C and D can not gain any provinces at all from A as a result of their current wars with A.

[I also suggested some rules for defining what Europe and Asia means]

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In post 975 the co-GM Ironfoundersson replied that this suggestion was a correct interpretation. You did not object. Thus for me this became the accepted interpretation of rule 2. Why the current wording in post 1 was not replaced by my proposal I do not know.

Anyhow, I believe my suggested and by Iron explicitly and by you implicitly accepted interpretation of the rule makes it very easy to decide what is right and what is wrong in the current situation.

The rule means you can gain any number of provinces, it only puts a limit on how many provinces you can lose. And that limitation is easy to calculate. You just need to know about the dates of different nations entering and leaving wars.

Thanks you rebriefing us of your earlier doubts. I am :) (Valuable information tends to get lots in the depths of one massive thread.) Expect an edit of this post soon with a proper reply from me.
 
In the previous posts it has been noted several times that the player SGA, and England in particular, has been largely missing from the action in Europe Ruined 2. It is with shame that I must agree with that observation.

Now, some of you may recall that it was actually I who started up the original Europe Ruined game in those old days. But i quickly found out that gm'ing and game organizing required a lot of time and was better left to some other, and perhaps also more skilled in the art of gm'ing, person (read: Enigma, who has done a very nice job, imo :cool: ). So in this game i wanted to be a little less committed, though I admit my involvement may have been too loose. Over time i have learnt that EU2 mp players are very dedicated to their games and things in general, and therefore you should either get heavily involved in the game or get out of it. This is, on a sidenote, a very nice thing as it makes the environment for games much more intense, which is a prerequisite for an exciting game, imo.

Therefore, I want to say I'm sorry for my absence in this game. I don't know how many sessions i've been missing, but since it is a general impression that it has been often, it has been too much, and I regret that. I just think that real life has taken its toll on me. That is, my absence was caused by exam papers, skiing holidays, school parties and other ridiculous things :) I've learnt that if you commit yourself to an EU2 mp game, you have to look forward and estimate beforehand if you have sufficient time for it. I think this is difficult, though, as we only play once a week, and since I don't know what i'm doing next Friday in 2 months, I can't be sure i'll be there for all sessions. At some point earlier, I considered dropping, but as I find others doing so very annoying myself, I chose to stay and accept ai/sub on some scale.

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...so this game has had a somewhat passive England. It has also been frustrating for myself as i had to rebuild every time the country had been ai, and Denmark was also quite an obstacle for my colonial development in NA, I should say. It was really a shame to have an ai session in the early years of the game, as it damaged England heavily, as would have been true for any colonizer in the early years. This meant that England never grew to its rightful glory in this game and thus coulnd't work as a counterweight to the French giant.

It seems that this game has arrived at a crucial point. A lot of wise words have been said, by Enigma in particular. I think that we should keep this game going. I really would have loved to be there last session - at least I would never have gived in to Iron that quick :p I wonder why the French DoW against England didn't spark a world war, though. Anyway, I'm never giving in to the French tyranny and I'm sure that certain countries will change their state of allegiance should we play on from where we are now. I never ever played this far from the 1492 beginning, and i think this game yet has a lot of potential fun. Let's get on with it :)

P.S. Does someone have the save? I would like to see how much damage was caused to my little baby, my dear England.
 
This game is my first (or second) game of EU2 MP ever. I played only SP before and one NPPBEM. Before this particular game, I didn't play EU2 for more than half a year. So I'm both newbe and noob. Or was as I believe :rolleyes: It is also likely that this is my last EU2 MP for long time.

I've learned a lot in this game and would play it different way if I got the chance again.