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Originally posted by Ariel
A ten billion strong army? Wow. Imagine the attrition... ;)

Yeah they end up eating each other after all the food in the world is consumed for breakfast. Imagine having to cook for that lot.

btw Ariel, you might also care to note that 10000K is not actually 10 billion. :p But then if you actually meet an army of that size the reaction would be the same either way. :eek::eek:
 
Speaking of India and all. I already fought three wars there (installment coming in two-three hours) and found that all of the above said is true - India is a hard one to crack if you fight three maharadjas together. One by one though, they are as helpless as any AI. My fortification size in India is medium and since Mysore and Hyderababd had mostly cavalry armies they were unable to change anything. Hyderabad managed to take one province back, but only because it had minimal fortifications. Indian leaders must be very good, and I like it - there is a challenge after all.

King of Nines, you asked me of my tech levels: after second indian war in 1598 I have military land tech at 14, naval at 19. Trade and infrastructure both at 5.

Before the first war I had 38,000 men in India, after the second around 70,000, after the third around 80,000. You can see, I came prepared. All this talks of 10 billion army scared the shit out of me:)

Lionheart, I had to stay in alliance - my opening required me to. Can't beat Spanish that easy on my own.

To help you all wait here is one screenshot (completely off the Indian topic though - I have to present them with installment).

EDIT: screenshot links removed - the website no longer exists
 
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Originally posted by nalivayko
Before the first war I had 38,000 men in India, after the second around 70,000, after the third around 80,000. You can see, I came prepared. All this talks of 10 billion army scared the shit out of me:)
Just make sure you take lots of ammunition.

Cheers!
 
The Indian Wars

First Indian War 1579-80

In 1579, immediately after the peace with Spain, Mughals declared war on Portugal, supported by maharajas of Hyderabad and Mysore. More than 200,000 Indians swept across the southern part of the subcontinent. The Mughal army seized the colony in Bombay, while Mysore forces burned the trading port in Madras. Since Portuguese had only 38,000 men in India at the time and most of Indian forces consisted of fast-moving cavalry and fierce elephant corps, it was decided to make peace as soon as possible, by ceding Bombay to the leader of the Indian alliance – the Mughal Empire. The offer was accepted.

French took an advantage of the situation and established a trading post in Madras, which later was expanded into a colony – a harbor for French ships in the region. Dutch too began to establish their presence in northwestern and northeastern corners of the subcontinent. Everywhere else Portuguese began to notice increased traffic on the high seas. Where before there were only Spanish and Portuguese traders, now the seas were swarming with English, Dutch and French ships. English trading posts appeared in Southeast Asia and in Ceylon, but as long as they stayed out of India per se, Portuguese were willing to give them a break. French and Dutch were different and Portugal for the first time in hundred years wished to re-consider its alliance with France.

In February of 1580 Henrique died and left no heir to the throne. Spanish King Phillip III claimed his rights to the throne. In the past Juan III tried to bring Iberia under Portuguese rule by marrying Catherine of Spain. The marriage backfired, allowing Spanish Kings to take control of Portugal. However, the nobles were not willing to give up all the control to the country. In a followed treaty Phillip swore not to interfere with country’s internal affairs and respect its sovereignty from Spain. Portugal would continue to exist as a separate country, ruled by Phillip through de Sinitra, who would acquire a title of prime minister. Spanish side promised to drop claims on any captured Spanish territory, while Portuguese swore not to go in war with Spanish, even if asked by their allies.

Immediately after the Union of Crowns Spanish began to violate the terms of the treaty. First, they seized the trading post in Honduras, claiming it was theirs by Treaty of Tordesillas. In the following years Spanish would seize more trading posts in Mexico, while Portuguese were helpless to do anything.

In August of 1585 Spanish announced the annexation of Aztec empire. This was a blow to Portuguese interests in the region, but again they were left out of the picture.

Turkey lost Syria in yet another war with Persia. With Suleyman I dead Turkey had a tough time trying to keep up their jihad.

In November of 1589 the Indian Alliance expired and before its leaders could renew their oaths, Portuguese delivered a declaration of war to maharaja of Mysore.

The Second Indian War 1589-90

The following campaign against Mysore was a success. By 1589 all fortresses in Portugal and India were upgraded to medium size and Mysore army faced an impossible task of taking one. Their 60,000-strong army besieged Mangalore. Their horses (40,000) doubled their demand of supplies and the army began to melt away like a snow in June. Meanwhile, Portuguese forces took control of all Mysore provinces and delivered an offer of annexation to country’s nobles, who had no choice but to agree. Remaining 12,000 Mysore soldiers joined the ranks of Portugal’s Indian Corps. Soon all former Mysore fortresses were upgraded to medium sized as well.

After the start of the war Portuguese invented a clever way to get rid of the French in their alliance without suffering a penalty. They called upon of their allies to aid in the war with Mysore and, naturally, all of their allies refused, considering distance and lack of interest. Portuguese then re-invited them all save France back to their alliance. French, however, did not loose time in finding new allies: Navarra, Naples, Modena and Helvetia.

In May of 1591 Lorraine declared itself independent from Spain and in the following war won the province of Champagne. Spanish and Austrians faced a war with newly born French alliance – the war being a part of a larger conflict in Germany, which religious wars covered the hidden struggle between Habsburgs and French for hegemony in Europe. Turkey lost a war to Poland, having to cede Serbia.

In 1592 Austria forced Swiss to convert back to catholic.

In 1594 French won an uncertain victory over Imperialists, receiving French-Comte from Spain and Baden from Austria. In May of 1596 the powers of France, Spain, and Germany sign the Edict of Tolerance, ending Counter-Reformation movement and forcing Spain to forfeit her rights on the larger part of the New World. Although it was a victory for France and her Protestant German friends, Portuguese rejoiced when their rights on South America were confirmed.

In 1597 French tried to annex Navarra and the latter in turn canceled its visualization. In the following year Navarra declared war on Spain and Lorraine dishonored French alliance. Portugal immediately sent an envoy to Lorraine, inviting the latter to the Portuguese alliance. The offer was accepted.

Phillip III died and his son, Phillip IV, stepped on the thrones of Spain and Portugal. He was definitely nothing like his father, lacking in all the possible fields and not even smart enough to appoint a right person to a prime minister. He decided to take control of Portugal in his own hands, which further enraged Portuguese nobility.

In February of 1599 the fortress in The Canary Islands was upgraded to protect a building of a refinery there.

The news came to Lisbon that Indian Alliance would expire in November of 1599. A quick review of Portuguese forces that its army was at its highest – 128,000 infantrymen, 22,000 cavalrymen and 194 cannons, as well as its navy – 73 warships and 10 transports. When November came Portugal sent an envoy with a declaration of war to Hyderabad.

The Third Indian War 1599-1600

The war started with a battle of Deccan, where Portuguese 14,000 infantry and 11,000 cavalry met Hyderabad’s 18,000-strong army, supported however by 100 cannons. The charge of former Mysore cavalry almost broke the enemy ranks, but its continuous artillery fire broke Portuguese instead. The army retreated to Mangalore, having lost 4,000 men. Indians, however, lost 10,000 and 9 cannons.

The next stage of campaign went smooth – Portuguese besieged all Hyderabad’s fortresses and eventually took each one of them. The capital had to be taken twice as Indian army managed to take it back after the first time. In the end, Hyderabad was annexed like Mysore, and 8,000 of its soldiers plus its extensive siege train of 94 cannons was surrendered to Portuguese. Now Portugal controlled all of South India. Only Mughal Empire was left at its way to the domination of the subcontinent.

Elsewhere, the colony in Table was expanded into a city, to protect Portuguese interests in South Africa. In South America Cartagena became a regional center to counter Spanish expansion in Mexico. Portuguese ships explored the Pacific and established contact with Japan, while expeditions from India revealed some parts of the Southeast Asia and Indonesia. Atlantic had no white spots any longer and even the location of Greenland was no longer a mystery to the Portuguese sailors.

EDIT: screenshot links removed - the website no longer exists
 
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nicely done. cool to see that green blob expanding ever-northwards. :D

in my portugal game, two of the indian states were allied with each other, so i got bum-rushed from 2 directions. that exotic tech can tear you apart pretty nicely if you don't have extensive fortifications and LOTS of cannon and/or cavalry.

you plan on annexing the mughals too, or just taking a few good provinces off them? and beware those dutch. they have a nasty tendency to proliferate in tropical enviroments, and will set up colonies all over the place if you're not quick to seize the good provinces. bali is a good place to start, and there's a gold province in new guinea i believe. watch out for those dutch cot's that will inevitably pop up too. might want to let them develop and then show them who has sovereignty in asia. :cool:

anyway, you're progressing nicely. i might have to go back and try my hand at portugal again, once i finish my scottish campaign.

oh, BTW, you still thinking of annexing morocco, or is asia now your primary concern?
 
Well, considering I still have 200 years ahead of me and India won't last that long I should be running out of targets soon. I am trying to keep a lower bb than in my previous games, but I don't have to sweat too much now. Again, my primary threat is Spain and they already hate me. I think of trying to ally to England now when French became a menace in India. After that I might have a go at Morocco to completely close Gibraltar Straits in case of a war (48 warships with superior naval tech should be enough).

As for Mughals - yes, they will have to go, and so will Dutch TP's and colonies, if they ever built them there :) I wanted India mine when I started the game and I am not stopping now.
 
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The Indian Wars - continued...

In May of 1603 the star of Brandenburg shined no more. Engaged in a war with Poland, it lost Magdeburg, Western Prussia and Silesia.

In February Spanish announced annexation of Navarra. An old friend, who thoughtlessly threw its lot with French, paid an ultimate price.

The same year Portuguese began to expand in the northeastern India, trying to cut off Dutch and English from the inland provinces of the subcontinent.

In 1608 Portuguese went against the Mughals in what would become the last of the Indian Wars.

The Fourth Indian War 1608-1610

The war began with a battle of Nagpur (Portugal - 22,000/2,000/92; Mughals – 8,000/32,000/78). At first Portuguese were winning, but the arrival of 10,000 reinforcements saved the day for the Indian army. Portuguese lost 9,000 men and 22 cannons; Indian losses were uncertain, but according to many sources exceeded 20,000.

In the meantime a daring cavalry raid seized Bombay, but the commander of 1,000 riders soon met 12,000-strong Indian army. He ordered his soldiers to charge and broke the enemy ranks. Later, the same army faced another Indian assault and carried the day again. In Delhi 20,000 Portuguese defeated 35,000 Indians, but were forced to retreat by another Indian force from the north. The climax of the war came during the battle of Auragabad, where 30,000 Portuguese defeated 40,000 Indians. The latter lost 10,000, while Portuguese losses didn’t exceed 2,000. After the battle it was a matter of time before Mughals surrendered. They did so in July of 1610. Accidentally, there was a celebration on the same date, honoring the opening of a stock exchange. Due to the celebration the news of the annexation went unnoticed.

After the war Portuguese continued to expand in India, reaching Dutch and English trading posts in the east and west. The last sparkle of Indian resistance came around 1611 in Bilaspur, where 9,000 natives completely annihilated 10,000-strong Portuguese army. Needless to say Portuguese did not leave a stone on stone in the province.

In 1611 the series of events changed the balance of power in Europe. Poland and Austria grew closer with each day, but they suffered several defeats in the hands of France and Turkey. Poland lost Danzig to France and Croatia to Turkey. Austria had to cede Salzburg. Denmark annexed Hansa and took Estonia from Teutons. Kazan’ rose in rebellion against her Russian overlords and Hessen got diplo-annexed by Dutch.

In Americas Portuguese expanded their colonies in Martinique and Trinidad and Tobago, preparing for the inevitable – the rebellion against Spanish King. In Africa 8,000 soldiers were recruited to protect the colonies there in case of a war with French.

In April 1613 Portuguese researched Light Artillery. The advance allowed them to build weapons manufactures. One was built immediately in Madya Pradesh. Earlier, Portuguese began the construction of two shipyards: in Tortuga and in Cochin – to be able to build large fleets in short amounts of time in Caribbean and India.

These constructions marked a beginning of a new era – era of Portuguese domination of India, which by far was the most precious jewel in the crown of Portuguese Kings.

EDIT: Images removed
 
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Hey, get working on the Infrastructure and Trade tech. that's where the money really is. Land tech will take care of itself for a while.

Forget the bad boy. Your strong enough now to take all-comers. Take provinces and build up the anti-rebel troops. when the DOW comes, they turn into city stormers.

One small point, with the indian provinces, you can't do much about the religion revolt risk. Wars of 2+ year will give you revolts and, as you know, one is likely to set off the next. Keep your wars now down to 2 years. Take provinces and give peace terms. Actually the indian revolts are not really that bad. It's places like Flanders and Genoa can throw out a lot of rebels at a time.

p.s. You got the land tech 17 and Mughals about 10 years before I did. But I'm still in the middle of a 3 year war that has seen me fighting, one after the other, against every bloody nation in the world except Nippon, Incas and Iroquois (the latter could actually do some damage). Worrying about Bad Boy is now a thing of the past since I've managed to annex during the war Mysore, Astrakhan, Genoa, Baden, Mughal Empire, Kleves, Thuringen, Saxony, and Parma. Only problem now is that I have to worry about five religions and, would you belive it, my revolt risk in Orthodox provinces is 11%!!:eek: Not long before the missionaries can go in and do their stuff :D
 
Nalivaiko,

rid india of those unsightly red and blue blemishes! :D

good work all around. i never did manage to take out the indian states in my portuguese campaign, and eventually i paid the ultimate price and lost my indian empire. allying with england and/or france will definately help against the spanish, and the dutch when the time comes.

lionheart,

what do the higher trade and infrastructure levels give you? i'm up to infra level 6 on my scottish campaign, which gave me goods manufactories, so then i switched to naval tech. what does level 7 give you, anything special?
 
KoN: AFAIK, Infrastructure increases Tax and Production income. Trade increases Trade income and makes your merchants more effective. For Portugal trade is more important in the early game but if you end up will a lot of large provinces, Infrastructure might become more important later
 
Originally posted by King Of Nines
...what do the higher trade and infrastructure levels give you? i'm up to infra level 6 on my scottish campaign, which gave me goods manufactories, so then i switched to naval tech. what does level 7 give you, anything special?
Higher level of infrastructue gives you higher monthly and yearly income associated with production and taxes.
Higher trade level gives you higher yearly income from province trade taxes and higher monthly income from your merchants in various CoTs, and also increases merchants' competitiveness [higher chance to compete out other merchants and a better chance to stay in CoT when other nations' merchant tries to compete you out]. As a result a monopoly could be reached much faster and maintained much longer if you lead in the trade technology compared with competitor nations.
 
I think I'll do better this time by posting an installment first.

The Colonial Wars

In February of 1615 Portuguese initiated a construction of Fine Arts Academy in Mysore. While some complimented Portuguese longing for knowledge, the majorities rightfully viewed this act as a preparation for the future aggression. It was well known that Fine Arts Academies help the stability of the country. It was also well known that one would build them only if he foresaw the sharp drops in stability, which result from unjustified declarations of war.

The First Colonial War 1615 - 1621

The skeptics, as always, were right. In October of 1615 Portuguese declared war on Dutch, planning to wipe off Dutch-English presence in India. The initial fighting took place in northwest and northeast India, where Portuguese troops rolled over British and Dutch possessions, mercilessly burning trading posts and seizing the undefended colonies. In North America small Portuguese force took control of three or four Dutch and English colonies. Then, in December of 1615, Oman declared war and burned Portuguese trading post in Quatar. Oman allies honored their alliance obligations. Among the few there were Algiers and Turkey, which presented Portuguese forces with new targets. Specifically, Turkish trading posts in India and East Africa and Algerian trading post south of Morocco. The later declared a separate war on Portugal, which was greeted by Portuguese with unmatched enthusiasm. To conquer Morocco was a dream of many Portuguese Kings. Unfortunately, it would have to be done under the leadership of the Spaniard.

In every case, but one Portuguese refused to call upon her allies. However, when Spanish declared the war, Portuguese felt they needed help. Lorraine was the only ally to refuse it. Phillip IV found only one ally – The Palatinate – to assist him in what many viewed as an act of treachery. Trying to bring Portugal under is complete control Phillip ruined the chances for his family to rule Portugal in the future.

Portuguese navy in Lisbon (52 warships and 6 transports) sailed out of the harbor and in the following battles with Turks, Spanish and Algerians sunk more than 50 enemy ships, loosing only one. The supremacy at sea was crucial for the conquest of Morocco. This task was given to a large army of 47,000 infantrymen, 1,000 cavalrymen and 86 cannons.

Meanwhile, Portuguese forces in America swept across Mexico, burning Spanish trading posts and seizing unfortified provinces. To their astonishment, Spanish managed to fortify most of the former Aztec provinces, completely disregarding their own homeland. Needless to say, they paid dearly for it, as Madrid and Valencia fell to Portuguese army after two brilliantly conducted assaults. In December of 1616 Spanish sued for peace, ceding Axtlico and Tuxpan, which were immediately fortified. Instead of the burnt trading posts Portuguese built new colonies. However, it became harder to find new people for colonization (colonial dynamism died out) and French took an advantage of it by sending their own colonists in Mexico.

In March of 1618 Granada fell to Algerians after three yearlong siege. Algerians desperately tried to get out of the war, but to no avail.

In July of 1618 the news reached Lisbon of the annexation of Morocco. While Moroccan army was busy dying at the walls of Tangiers, Portuguese seized their provinces one by one. Sahara was the last to fall, but the attrition and cavalry raids made by new Muslim recruits reduced Portugal’s expedition force to 20% of its original size. Considering the reinforcements sent, there were more than 50,000 casualties in Morocco. Sadly, Turks at Tangiers immediately massacred the remains of Moroccan army. Luckily, one refinery survived the assault in Morocco. In August of 1618 peace was made with Oman and Portuguese had a chance to further fortify their new North African provinces.

In 1619 a force of 7,000 Portuguese landed in Carolina and over a year of fighting managed to burn most of Dutch and English trading posts in North America. In Indonesia, Portuguese navy won a number of victories over Dutch and Portuguese expeditionary force burnt many trading posts as well.

In 1621 after numerous offers of peace to Dutch and English Portugal decided to get out of the war. The expedition to Friesen proved a success, even in light of Dutch victories on the battlefield. Once the city fell to Portuguese troops for the second time white peace was made.

In April Phillip V became the King of Spain and Portugal. In short period of peace he built a goods manufactory in Hyderabad and offered another weapons manufactory in Granada. The infrastructure was improved and a serious research was done on improving Portuguese trade quality. Few colonies were built in Mexico and India to consolidate Portuguese gains in the regions and navy increased to ensure Portuguese naval superiority.

On the whole the First Colonial War failed to meet its initial objectives. There still was one English colony in India and Dutch presence in Indonesia was still heavy. However, the brilliant military campaigns in North America seriously damaged English and Dutch colonial empires, while the conquests of Morocco opened new possibilities for Portuguese in Africa. The victory over Spain secured South America from Spanish invasion and lessened Spanish grip on Portugal.

EDIT: Images removed
 
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All right, here's my comments on infrastructure and trade: I think the most important thing is not to fall behind the major powers. Once you have many provinces you get enough money for a little bit of everything anyway. Once you have many COTs you get enough merchants to keep a pressure on competition. I have monopolies in almost all my COTs (I have 5 now) and in some Asian COTs as well.

Land tech and naval tech aren't as important... that is until the war starts and you know that the enemy is destined to have better generals. In this case, it's important to be first, at least in land.

For the rest of you who simply wish me luck... I know, those French and British and Dutch... they just can't leave the world to me, bastards. I promise, I'll find a remedy for them and their numerous settlers even if I have to drawn them in blood :)

P.S. Damn Morocco was a harder nut to crack than I thought. But again, it came with small fortresses and a refinary, so I do not want to complain. I needed that piece of desert. Algiers next.

P.P.S. If you want any specific screenshot of any specific area to be taken - just tell me.
 
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Cornelius and Coeur de Lion, thanks to you two for answering my question. i think i will switch back to researching infrastructure as soon as i get the ability to build shipyards (i need the extra colonist a year. i get one now as CR catholic, but that's just not enough to compete with the big colonial powers. an interesting side note is that i got the edict of tolerance and it changed my religion back to catholic automatically. i then had to re-change back to CR-catholic to retain the 1 colonist a year).

nalivayko,

good to see you cleaning up the red, blue, and orange from north america. one question though. who's that greenish-brown up in the northeastern corner? i think it would be in the nova scotia area. i noticed there's a few provinces that have that color, and i know spain is yellow. so who else has set up colonies there? u plan on taking those out too?

also, taking morocco and the refinery was a good move. you plan on making all north africa catholic now, in a "total reconquista?" :) you could probably take out algiers pretty easily too, and probably even the hafsids. the problem will be whenever you clash with the turks. are you in an alliance now? might want to consider persia as an ally against the turks, as those shia would no doubt love to see their sunni enemies in flames. :D

how about a screenshot of europe at large, to see who's been doing what?
 
Question for Nilavayko - Noticed you didn't take the Toledo region with its gold mines. Was this a deliberate attempt to avoid inflation running rampant?

Question for King of Nines (and everyone else) - I got very excited when I had the chance to build shipyards, went mad, built half a dozen, waited for the extra colonists to roll in... and nothing happened. Not one extra settler, not once. So what gives? Ooh, and on the same topic, played a quick game as Portugal, captured Spanish shipyard in Andalusia, and again, no extra colonists, whereas when I took Ragusa as England, I did get an extra colonist... is the 'Shipyards +1' colonist just the cumulative effect of having at least one shipyard/wharf somewhere in your nation?
 
Ariel, I am drooling to answer your questions :)

First, shipyards... You're right in the end - you've gotta have at least one to get +1 settler, but a second or third or etc do not bring any additional ones. BTW, i made the same mistake playing Turkey. Build extra shipyards and nothing happened. Bummer.

As for Toledo - it wouldn't look good on the map and I wouldn't have a decent opponent to jump on all the time :) As for the last war, Toldeo had medium size fortifications, while Madrid and the rest of the country still had minimum. So, I skipped it. At this stage, I am going for Spanish overseas possessions, not mainland provinces.

King Of Nines, the dark-green and dark-brown colonies in NA belong to Modena and Naples. Reconquista sounds good, only there are no Hafsids to conquer - Turkey diplo-annexed them before. My fault, I don't pay attention to that part of the world.

My alliance consists of Savoy, Milan, Genoa, Rome, and Sicily. Good enough to attack Turkey in Italy.

As for the screenshots - give me a half an hour or so, I'll make more.
 
Nalivayko recorded
"There still was one English colony in India and Dutch presence in India was still heavy."

I'm a little confused with your screenshot of India in 1621. Are the Dutch green or is that Portugal?
Joe