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The war in China has several examples, during the war in Burma/Malaya there were also instances of large sized units marching for days through jungle without being spotted.

Make mine a chocolate chip.

You didn't name a division, so there's no way of telling if it had more than 10,000 troops. To clarify further, it should be an ambush in the sense that adjacent (in HoI3) large enemy formations were completely oblivious to that movement. It's not really an ambush if you know they're there. So I am holding on to my cookies for now :D
 
Oh, and for extra credit -

  • Chindits
  • Merill's Marauders
  • German march through the Ardennes in 1940 (not spotted until they emerged)
  • The Chinese People's 'Volunteers' march behind the UN armies in the winter of 1950 (nobody even admitted their presence in North Korea until UN forces discovered just how much **** they were in)
  • Dien Bien Phu (the French had no idea that the Viet Minh were there in force until the Vietnamese launched their first assault)

All of these involved ambushes by units of 4,000 + at least. The Chinese managed to march upwards of a hundred thousand men behind UN lines before MacArthur would admit they were there.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

In a well-documented instance, a Chinese army of three divisions marched on foot from An-tung in Manchuria, on the north side of the Yalu River, 286 miles (460 km) to its assembly area in North Korea, in the combat zone, in a period ranging from 16 to 19 days. One division of this army, marching at night over circuitous mountain roads, averaged 18 miles (29 km) per day for 18 days. The day's march began after dark at 19:00 and ended at 03:00 the next morning. Defense measures against aircraft were to be completed before 05:30. Every man, animal, and piece of equipment were to be concealed and camouflaged. During daylight, bivouac scouting parties moved ahead to select the next day's bivouac area. When Chinese units were compelled for any reason to march by day, they were under standing orders for every man to stop in his tracks and remain motionless if aircraft appeared overhead.[21]:102 Officers were empowered to shoot any man who violated this order.

Likewise, the French at Dien Bien Phu were surrounded by as many as 50,000 Viet Minh without knowing they were there in force until the first barrage was fired.

Of course, these all involved light infantry units operating in a semi-guerilla fashion (except for the Ardennes), but it is quite possible for units of 10,000 men to hide from an enemy, especially when that enemy would prefer to think that they aren't there.
 
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Oh, and most famous of all - Mao's 80,000-odd men on the long march, totally lost the KMT for much of the march, even though the KMT had planes out looking for them, ambushed the KMT armies several times - and were ambushed in turn by the KMT on occasion.
 
Why do you assume that? They're still radar stations. With more, improved functions and features. It's a combination SIGINT and radar sites. I don't see why doing one thing prevents it from doing another.

Because Radar stations did not do anything in HOI2 apart from the small bonus/malice to air fighting. I was hoping for news on this when I saw the theme of the diary. I found it disappointing that the diary did not mention this first. Radar stations had no use as signal intelligence on ground units during WW2. It was used to detect planes and ships.

So that's why.
 
I’m getting concerned about the number of HQ units I’m seeing. If I understand this we’ll have a theater HQ with separate army HQ’s and then corps HQ’s. There are 4 HQ units showing on the western front alone. That’s a major investment in IC and then to talk about using HQ units as decoys??? I think I’d rather spend my IC on units that add firepower to my objectives. Looking at the past DD’s the HQ units still take 270 days to produce but I couldn’t decipher the IC cost. I realize this is an alpha shot but I’m just voicing my concern now.
 
I see this as an ABSTRACT INTEL array of radars/listening stations, and we are talking about strategy, not tactics.

Maybe a number of e.g. 5 radars/listening posts will represent mostly a good network of listening posts, while a higher number of e.g. 9 would represent advanced radar outpost with actual A/A bonus to adjacent interceptors.
 
Because Radar stations did not do anything in HOI2 apart from the small bonus/malice to air fighting. I was hoping for news on this when I saw the theme of the diary. I found it disappointing that the diary did not mention this first. Radar stations had no use as signal intelligence on ground units during WW2. It was used to detect planes and ships.

So that's why.

Well, radar spelled backwards is still radar. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I think it's a huge assumption to think that Radar in the game will be used only for sigint. I think it's a consolidation for ease of gameplay. The effort to build radar in a province is also going to instead represent the effort to build sofisticated electronic infrastrcuture in general it seems.
 
How about signals brigades instead of or in addition to merging the Intel portion into radar? This way we would not have to rely on constructing new stations, and we could get these Intel units to the front faster.
 
Good Job!


I simply can't wait until this comes out. :)
 
Some nice ideas about dealing with the FoW beyond the adjoining provinces, though I can see problems with this is if the radar/SigInt is a static installation. Will Germany lose all ability to see beyond the frontline once it advances beyond the range of radar installations in Barbarossa? You can see in Switzerland that Germany has no information beyond the border provinces, because these provinces are all out of range of the radar/SigInt in the Frankfurt area. Once it advances through the Ardennes beyond Sedan will a German Army lose its intel about possible positions of the Allied units? Or will it need to capture French/Belgian installations?

Given the technical differences between the early radar types used in each country, and the significant expert human resources required to interpret radio intel data, I can't see how an advancing army can just take control and start using another country's radar/SigInt. But even if we accept this abstraction, with the limitation that it drops to 0% on capture and takes several days/weeks to regain 100%, what will happen when you advance into an area where there are no radar/SigInt installations to capture?

I think it would be better to have an expensive Signals Bde that can be attached to the higher command HQs and travel with the army when it advances. There was definitely such a unit with the DAK in North Africa, which did important intel work for the Axis forces along the lines Johan has described in identifying the approximate locations/strengths of Allied units. The Allies had nothing similar, instead relying on intel from decryption of strategic radio interceptions from having broken the Enigma code. I assume there were similar units which travelled with the German Armies in Barbarossa, but the books I've read don't mention them.

Incidentally, this sort of ability doesn't really work as a single static installation anyway. The relevance of the radio chatter might all be intrepreted at one site, but you need to triangulate the source to get a possible location, and that means having two radio aerials picking up the signals with a fairly wide separation. That doesn't mean having them both in a single province several miles apart - not if you are going to try to locate an Army Corps in Antwerp over 500km from Frankfurt.

Of course, both sides used this sort of technical intel to supplement standard aerial reconnaisance. Johan said, "people’s intelligence picture wasn’t just limited to the front line and where aircraft happen to be flying they did know bits and pieces of what was happening else where." This sounds like HOI2 where we could gain "intel" from where our bomber units happened to be flying. But IRL there was no "happen" about it - Armies used systematic air recon to try to identify positions/strengths of enemy forces. IMO a recon air unit at the airbase near Luxemburg might provide just as much intel, or possibly even more, than radar/SigInts, especially in 1936 when the technology was still emerging. Air recon units, consisting mainly of small light aircraft, were very flexible and could keep up with the advance of quickly moving ground units, by operating from temporary airfields. Obviously, they might be interdicted in a war, especially if the enemy has air superiority, but I think you could abstract their benefits to a large extent, pretty much as we see with this Dev Diary, without having single air recon planes flying around the map or anything else too micro. The benefit of air recon units would be particularly important for minors, which shouldn't have any of the fancy technology.

Nevertheless I just love the screenshot for giving us that bit clearer indication about the sort of army organisation we will have. To see that the units with HQ Bde's are indeed Corps HQ, and that the Divs they command are spread over a geographical area. It looks to me like they are nearly always in an adjoining province, which is what I envisaged. The main thing is that a Corps HQ with two Divs definitely is not a stack of three units in one province.

I would have loved to see an Army HQ somewhere, just to complete the OOB, and see that Army HQ's have the ability to command Corps over a big geographical area. But hey, this is 8 Jan 1936, Germany still hasn't re-occupied the Rhineland and maybe hasn't created any Army/Army Group formations yet. Now that we have Johan talking about Patton commanding US 1st Army Group we can have no doubt they have given us exactly what I hoped for in terms of OOB. But then I've been confidently predicting this for a couple of months now. Thanks Johan for the unexpected DD :D
 
Nice.. but the Netherlands and Belgium look.. quite botched.

Belgium's coast is totally wrong, it's way too small and the south of the Netherlands looks really weird. I know it's probably a lot of work to fix it but when I see those alpha shots of England (for instance) it's painstakingly true to how it is!
 
so what about the use of radar to detect planes? would you still be able to detect planes with it? so far i get that you need to concentrate your radar in a single province...

Of course you would use radar to detect panes. But none of the HOI2 stuff where radar gives a vague bonus to air combat in the same or adjoining province.

Like we see here it will have a proper range. The green/brown border shows the range of the radar installation, and apart from the slightly odd situation on the Belgium coast at Brugge (possibly as a result of naval intel, rather than the radar/SigInt) it looks like a pretty accurate circle around the radar/SigInt installation. None of the HOI2 freakiness that if a single province is in range then everything within a region was in range. So I think we can now assume they are going to do air unit and radar ranges properly.

If you take what Johan said about in Dev Diary #10:
We’ve made a couple of changes to naval orders. Firstly we have added the infinite order, for something like convoy escorts, you send you fleet out and the order will run indefinitely. With an added twist, each naval base can also be set up with a pool of reserves. These sit in port, repair if they need it, upgrade if they can, but when ever a fleet that is on an infinite order needs to return to port these ships will be used to replace them (providing they are of the same type). Thus if your ships, have low org, or are damaged, rather than having to go to all the trouble of sending a different fleet out on exactly the same order the system will take care of this automatically. What we’ve tried to do is hold down the planning overhead for your missions, yes you may want to go back from time to time and adjust them, but as long as things are going ok you can leave your naval units to get on with it.

Thus you now have extra time plan your naval big naval operations, like sending out the Bismarck to go convoy raiding in the Atlantic. To help facilitate this we’ve added a cool new feature, multiple detection levels. Knowing an enemy fleet is in a sea zone is not enough to be able to engage it, the ocean is a big place and all you know is that a fleet is somewhere. You need to pinpoint the fleet’s location better than that if you wish to actually fight it. First up we have added a patrol order (best suited for light ships), these ships will search sea zones in its area of operation looking for enemies, if an enemy fleet is partially detected it will focus its search in that sea zone. Once the patrolling ships find an enemy they don’t seek to engage (unless the odds are very good), instead they will try to trail the enemy, keeping it in contact until heavier ships come along to help out. Note the trailed ship has a chance of detecting its shadow and trying to sink it before help can arrive. The final piece of the puzzle is the naval intercept order, this is for your big fleet, and they sit in port waiting for the enemy to be found by your patrol ships. As soon as the enemy is positively identified and they like the odds (which you determine) they will sail off and try and sink them.
This system can easily be adapted to having a mixture of radar, visual observation from AA units (such as along coastlines or borders) and some interceptors in the air, causing a chance that enemy bomber streams would be spotted. Then a further chance that a few wings/groups of interceptors kept on the ground in "reserve", possibly even based at different airbases but under the same higher air command structure, would be scrambled from their bases and then able to focus in on the stream and keep in contact with it, then spot and attack individual planes. Leading not to a silly air "battle" in one province if the stack of interceptors happen to fly into the same province as the stack of bombers, where the whole bomber stack might lose all of its org and turn round back to base without dropping any bombs. Instead, just a varying level of attrition to the bomber units, where a German TAC wing bombing London might lose one plane over the Channel, nothing in Kent, then lose two over London, finally another one coming back over Kent. Then return to base having lost 4% of its strength.

Have no doubts radar will form an important part of the air war in HOI3. Various different technologies with different tech trees: ground radar to spot the stream; ground radar to help direct interceptors towards individual bombers; airborne radar with interceptors to spot airborne targets; airborne radar with the bombers to spot ground targets; ground radar directing AA guns.

Radar has nothing to do with ground intel in this Dev Diary, except that Paradox have abstracted the radar/radio signals installations into one location. Rather oddly IMHO! But I guess you could have an installation where you have done no research into the radio signals stuff, just radar; or the opposite. It's also just possible that the build screen for the installation might be like building a capital ship, that you select from a couple of different technical "attachments" that you want to include in the installation, so you can create radar-only installations for the defence of Berlin in the airwar, and some radio-only SigInt installations along your borders. Then you can also create a combined installation in Frankfurt if you want, to give you intel from northern France, Belgium and Holland, as well as supporting air defences for the Ruhr/Rhine industrial area. That would be the most sensible way to deal with it.
 
Nice.. but the Netherlands and Belgium look.. quite botched.

Belgium's coast is totally wrong, it's way too small and the south of the Netherlands looks really weird. I know it's probably a lot of work to fix it but when I see those alpha shots of England (for instance) it's painstakingly true to how it is!

Look at Belgium in Google Maps:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gent&sll=50.778155,3.911133&sspn=1.705439,3.515625&ie=UTF8&ll=51.087998,3.721619&spn=3.222539,7.03125&t=p&z=7

Belgium is much narrower on the coast (around 60km) than further inland around Brussels (around 140km). So the borders are not so bad as they first look. I think Paradox have made it slightly narrower on the coast than IRL. This is so that they can give Calais and Dunkirk their own provinces. You can't complain about that.

To me the coast is OK, but I think the inclusion of a whole Dutch province south of the River Schelde is not necessary. There are no major Dutch towns in this quite small area. It might be better to drop this province completely, make the Belgium coast a little longer, and include a sea estuary to come inland so that the sea province (Mouth of the Thames IIRC) reaches Antwerp, so that it can become a port. At the minute, Antwerp is just another inland province, when IRL it is a major port, second largest in Europe, and had strategic importance in WWII in late 1944 for this reason. To give Belgium Ostend as their only port/naval base is not very realistic.
 
BTW, Potski, while I also voiced this concern, I somehow doubt that SigInt only comes from SigInt facilities. All the HQs seem to be positioned (cleverly, I am sure) by Paradox in this screenshot in such a way that their SigInt range wouldn't peer beyond the one provided by the station. I think we both agree that it is highly unlikely that nations on the offensive would be left without SigInt of some kind. Of course, anything can happen, but I very seriously doubt it.
 
Here is a comparative picture (yellow is the HoI province of Middelburg, green is the island on which the real Middelburg is located, in HoI Den Haag is located there):
alphajan7belgium52hg8.jpg



It seems a bit elongated if you compare longitude/latitude (nothing major, probably due to different projection, what projection does HoI use anyway?)

Some remarks:

1. the coastline should be a bit larger (they already enlarged it since the november 19 screenshot, good! :) ). It also shouldn't be so jagged/curvy (the Dutch coast too), it should be almost a straight line at that scale. Not like Sweden :D

2. The mouth of the river Scheldt is a minimum of 5km's wide, so a plain river doesn't fit IMO
Problem with expanding the seazone to Antwerp is that this will give you a small 'strait', allowing you to block access with ships in the Mouth of the Thames. A solution would be to make it like the Magdeneiland-province.

3. Den Haag is situated between the Rhine and the Scheldt while the Rhine and Scheldt flow South of it.
All of the Dutch provinces seem a bit ackwardly placed IMO :confused:

I'd very much like to propose any solutions, but it's so complicated it's giving me a headache :D
I feel a lot of sympathy for the artists who have to do the entire world like that :)
 
In terms of detection and reaction, one thing I don't like is that whenever a battle starts you automatically know. To me that seems wrong. There should be varying levels of "lag" in giving orders and receiving information. These should depend on technology, like radios, and doctrine, like effeciency of chain of command. The lag time shouldn't necessarily be how long it takes for the leader of the country to hear whats happening, but rather who normally gives the order or takes the initiative. For example, with Germany in the early part of the war, the lag time should be at most one hour because the combat commanders were the ones who took the initiative, shortening the chain of command, thus requiring less time for reaction/detection. This quick reaction is due to German doctrine of auftragstaktik (mission type tactics or as you might know it, decentralized execution). On the other hand, the French in the beginning of the war should have very slow reaction and detection because thier chain of command was very slow and ineffecient. In order for even a corps, and sometimes a division, to do anything, Gamlin who was positioned way behind the lines in Paris had to receive the request and information and then send an order down the long chain of command. Once again this is due to doctrine. On the other hand, there has to be a way to prevent decentralized execution from being too good. My idea is to occasionally have units simply attack without being ordered and not be able to call them back. The problem is that it simply doesn't sound feasable. Still, there must be one positive in having centralized execution (even though there isn't in real life barring political considerations in war).

To what you guys were saying, there should be a command called "covert movement" where units only move at night and under cover. Obviously it should be slowere but it has the added benefit of being better protected against air units and better concealed.
 
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The problem is that the US in the Pacific definitely didn't rely only on search planes and intelligence gathered by actual scouts. There needs to be a means of actually "taking SigInt with you." The easiest way would seem to allow capital ships and HQs to act as mobile, low-level SigInt stations (increasing in capability as technology improves).
But that's exactly what I meant. Planes and ground scouts were just an example.
 
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