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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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Do locations buy goods from the market in an order that is determined by market access (i.e. highest access buys all their demanded goods first, then second highest, and so on),

does this deal a huge blow to far-out locations? can they realistically hope for having their needs met at least occasionally or is it centuries until they get some supplies?

if it's the latter, i think there should be a way to guarantee low-access locations at least a limited amount of supplies. say, 80% of supplies is divided in the order of market access and the remaining 20% is divided equally between all provinces which want to buy (perhaps buying from this pool would cost extra money to still punish you for maintaining low market access).
 
Lots of things happen before 1444 in this period in Spain. I really hope they represent the several civil wars and kingdom wars etc. And that Granada cannot just be wiped out in the first year super easily
I did gather a few event proposals for Spain for a content mod some years ago. It was before many DLC so Golden Century and other made most of them obsolete. I guess we could do something like that. But I don't know if Paradox Tinto does have any way to suggestions other than commenting on the Forum (which may be good for discussion but no so much for structured proposals).

I guess Forum are a double edged sword for Paradox. They can capitalized on a wide fanbase which is willing to bring ideas about how to better model lots of places in the world. But unless they develop a way to filter it (and thus avoid hundreds of messages about "please, put my city in the map, it was really important back them"), it is very complex to turn this type of input into help for a good simulation game.
 
does this deal a huge blow to far-out locations? can they realistically hope for having their needs met at least occasionally or is it centuries until they get some supplies?

if it's the latter, i think there should be a way to guarantee low-access locations at least a limited amount of supplies. say, 80% of supplies is divided in the order of market access and the remaining 20% is divided equally between all provinces which want to buy (perhaps buying from this pool would cost extra money to still punish you for maintaining low market access).

So one thing to remember is that this is NOT Victoria 3 and the economic simulation is very different. Not saying that you're in a Victoria 3 mindset, but I certainly was and it takes some time getting my head around a normal simulation of goods that isn't just buy and sell orders. Markets in Caesar actually have stockpiles and goods are actually moved around.

That means that as long as a market has enough of a stockpile, you can construct even in the lowest access province. And if it doesn't, then you can wait for the stockpile to fill up. It's unlikely that whoever is ahead of you in the queue will be able to constantly spam so much construction (or raising of armies or whatever else they're doing that consumed goods) that you can't do anything at all. And if that's still the case, it's time to make your own market. Or you could import the goods that you need to ensure they are high in supply while you do your thing.

For something like regular consumption of goods by pops (we don't know how this will work yet), this system could definitely create a very clear effect of locations near a market center having supplied pops and locations further away being poor, but we need more info on this first.
 
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Lots of things happen before 1444 in this period in Spain. I really hope they represent the several civil wars and kingdom wars etc. And that Granada cannot just be wiped out in the first year super easily
TBH, I would love to see represented other conflicts affecting iberia overall, like the marinid invasion (that is still going in 1337) or other conflicts, like the Fernandine wars between portugal and castille following the castillian civil war.
 
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My CD Team says that their research shows that those numbers are more akin to the 15th century, when Barcelona was in relative decadence, and Valencia in its golden age. In 1337, approximate numbers would be Barcelona about 25-35K, Valencia 20-25K, and Palma around 15-20K inhabitants; for that and other reasons, Barcelona was still the main trading center of the Crown of Aragon. We have a Castilian, a Catalan, an Aragonese, and a Basque on the team, so they have great fun discussing the historical setup for the Iberian Peninsula, and are also glad to receive feedback about it.

this brings an interesting question: does having a market based in a location provice significant bonuses to pop attraction et cetera? and so, as a consequence, Barcelona will always stay bigger than Valencia over the course of the game on the sole basis of having a market at the start?
or would Valencia be able to organically outgrow Barcelona and eventually prove important enough to convince Aragon to move the market to Valencia?
 
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this brings an interesting question: does having a market based in a location provice significant bonuses to pop attraction et cetera? and so, as a consequence, Barcelona will always stay bigger than Valencia over the course of the game on the sole basis of having a market at the start?
or would Valencia be able to organically outgrow Barcelona and eventually prove important enough to convince Aragon to move the market to Valencia?
There are many such examples of cities being eclipsed in importance. Think of Bruges as the main trade center in Northwestern Europe being replaced by Antwerp once it stopped being an actual port city, and Antwerp being eclipsed by Amsterdam once its river was closed for ships from the sea.
Or how Lübeck fell behind Hamburg in importance once trade shifted more towards the Atlantic.

I'm definitely interested in if and how shifts like this are represented in the game.
 
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Will some locations next to lakes produce fish?

Will competing markets that are next to each other cause a change in relations/attitude between the market owners?
 
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im concerned, it seems that name localizations are very inconsistent. with Praha, Köln, etc, being localized, but Venice, Moscow, etc, being turned into english names for some reason.
 
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As someone with almost 4000 hours im EU4. There is only 1 thing I care about. A chat. I hate the fact that Imperator Rome, CK3 and Vici3 don't have a chat, i just want to vibe to sabaton while not being forced into a discord server because there is no chat for multiplayer. Please Johan, add a chat.
 
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And I'm very glad that Tinto does not drop unique mechanics entirely. A solid design philosophy is desirable, but I also want specific flavour and different gameplay for different regions and countries, philosophical purity be damned.
Without so-called "unique bullshit", you'll get the generic blandness of Imperator, which is a game that I'd really like to love for its smartly designed gameplay, but can't get myself to actually play and enjoy, because there are so few countries with specific content that are actually interesting to play (and Imperator 1.0, which had almost no country-specific content at all, was even worse in that regard).
With that mindset you make deterministic history again instead of creating a sandbox
 
So would this mean that port cities in Western England will get all the benefits of trade from Caribbean and Asia rather than London because they’re the closest location?

That is historical though. The trade didnt go to london it went to cities like Liverpool, Manchester etc.

London will benefit from all the northern european and Baltic trade.
 
With that mindset you make deterministic history again instead of creating a sandbox
No, you just create something that can help the universal sandbox mechanics in making sense with the historical context they're supposed to be based on.

Leave everything to universal mechanics and you make a bland game where every part of the world works the same and there's no difference in playing in Japan, Arabia or Western Europe. Unique regional, cultural and age-related mechanics help with keeping each region and time period unique while retaining the general sandbox system.
 
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I saw 2 places that are connected to another market even though they are connected to a completely different market (one is Prague-Krakow, the other is Paris-London). How are these markets connected to another market without any connection from Karasan or sea and will the goods there incur an extra customs fee?
 
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