World War II's Endgame, birth of a Cold War

[Andre Bolkonsky]

This is a carry-over from a previous thread about French population and has been moved here to prevent derail and confusion.

@JodelDiplom suggested I was describing a chain of events that differed from the official version of 'History'. This surprises no one and as always I am happy to elaborate and would actually enjoy a discussion on this matter.

My question is an intellectual one; according to German history told by Germans, please describe in great detail the end of the war and the birth of New Germany from the ashes. What happened? Where did the Nazis go? How did the government deal with them? Where did New Germany come from, what is its origin story? How is Germany so intertwined with the Southern cone of South America during this time?

If I can get a couple of Germans to explain their version I might see something I have missed.

As for me, the title suggests I believe the Nazi Party anticipated, even fueled, the Cold War and rode the wave. But I am very, very interested in the German version of this story.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

@Stuckenschmidt @Graf Zeppelin @JodelDiplom

And all the Germans I forgot to include before posting . . .

Plesase, tell me in your own words what the end of the Nazi party and the birth of New Germany looks like according to 'Germans'.

It is a legit intellectual question, and I am asking as a personal favor. Please elaborate. My thanks in advance

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Plesase, tell me in your own words what the end of the Nazi party and the birth of New Germany looks like according to 'Germans'.

This is way too broad a question. I mean, the facts are on the table (respectively to be read on Wikipedia), so it is redundant to repeat anything of it. Maybe you can point to the apple of discord, that makes you ask the question.

 

[JodelDiplom]

This is way too broad a question. I mean, the facts are on the table (respectively to be read on Wikipedia), so it is redundant to repeat anything of it. Maybe you can point to the apple of discord, that makes you ask the question.

Yeah, this.

The "official" version is the one you find in school books, history books and on Wikipedia. Those three sources are in remarkably good accordance with one another on basically any and all aspects of German WW2 and post WW2 history. I don't know why you'd want us to summarize it for you, André.

Concerning your favorite aspect, the fugitive Nazis who didn't just adopt me identities and lead unremarkable lives in Germany, but left Germany for other shores: Those aren't the subject of history much, because so little is known of them. They went to god knows where, stayed there, and I assume for the most part also led more or less unremarkable lives as traders, doctors, lawyers, ranchers or business people. But they are (well, were) the subject of countless sensational stories which are for the most part unsubstantiated. I don't follow those. The ones who went to South America didn't have any discernible influence on German affairs post 1945 except through the aforementioned sensational stories.

Now, if you please, you promised to look up the sources for your claims concerning German pre WW2 patents which you claim weren't all voided after WW2. I'd like to see those before I contribute any further to this thread.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I assume the short version is Germany and Europe recovered from destruction rather fast.

 

[Pyoro]

For typical school education I'd say you get a certain level of glossing over the fact that Soviet-controlled Germany was a bit more thorough in Denazification, that Germany wasn't always ready to acknowledge its WW2 guilt; there's little general debate about themes like "Ostvertreibung" (too easy to get apologetic about), economic explanations move pretty quickly and superficially through the Marshal Plan, "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" and German-French European cooperation. Politically there's usually just a bit of "there were occupation zones and then there weren't after a while, also we didn't manage to get rid of the Saarland". Maybe a bit about the new Grundgesetz und how it's much better than the Weimarer constitution was. There's some "favorite" topics picked out like Trümmerfrauen, but other bits get completely ignored. Lastly every child has to swear an oath to keep all information on German moon bases secret.

 

[Zaleukos]

Constructive US involvement and the Marshall plan is what allowed Germany and Western Europe to recover.

There would have been a conflict between the West and the USSR even in the absence of WW2 due to the revolutionary nature of communist ideology and the kind of parties supported by the USSR. It might have stayed cold as Stalin was cautious and only expanded when there was a power vacuum or it might have gone hot in the absence of clear US leadership.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I assume the short version is Germany and Europe recovered from destruction rather fast.

Amazingly so. Miraculous, some might call it.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Yeah, this.

The "official" version is the one you find in school books, history books and on Wikipedia. Those three sources are in remarkably good accordance with one another on basically any and all aspects of German WW2 and post WW2 history. I don't know why you'd want us to summarize it for you, André.

Concerning your favorite aspect, the fugitive Nazis who didn't just adopt me identities and lead unremarkable lives in Germany, but left Germany for other shores: Those aren't the subject of history much, because so little is known of them. They went to god knows where, stayed there, and I assume for the most part also led more or less unremarkable lives as traders, doctors, lawyers, ranchers or business people. But they are (well, were) the subject of countless sensational stories which are for the most part unsubstantiated. I don't follow those. The ones who went to South America didn't have any discernible influence on German affairs post 1945 except through the aforementioned sensational stories.

Now, if you please, you promised to look up the sources for your claims concerning German pre WW2 patents which you claim weren't all voided after WW2. I'd like to see those before I contribute any further to this thread.

You have my word. I can give you something quick, or take my time and lay out an argument of some substance as agreed. Just moving it out of a discussion on French population and letting the topic marinate.

 

[Victor1234]

It's not very academic or scientific, but German movies from the post war era certainly suggest to me that it was out in the open that many people in high places in business anyways, had Nazi pasts, or had fled to South America. I wouldn't agree with Andre to say they controlled everything, etc, but I don't think it's fair to say they lead unremarkable lives either. Clearly it must have been plain enough for everyday people to relate to if they could reference it in the movies.

There was a scandal over UN Secretary General/Austrian President Kurt Waldheim as well, and what he got up to between the years 1942-1945.

Anyways, part of the summary of the film Wir Wunderkinder (1958):

Spoiler

"Finally, in the period known as the Wirtschaftswunder, Bruno has risen to the rank of Generaldirektor (head of company) while Hans works as a journalist. When he writes a critical article, referencing Bruno's Nazi past, Bruno visits Boeckel's boss and threatens to organise an advertising boycott of the paper unless Hans retracts the story. Hans refuses and Bruno storms out.

At Bruno's funeral, the attending political and economic leaders are shown to have previously been involved with the Nazi party as well, and they vow to "continue onwards in his spirit"

The first clip below contains the main song of the movie (and is interesting for a montage presenting the rebuilt Germany's wealth), while the second one is the full length feature, but Russian dubbed version (unfortunately only extracts are on youtube in German).

The Russian dubbed one is interesting to see the end of, even just for the visuals, as the director picked particularly evil looking actors to be funeral attendees, with enough Schmisse to make Skorzeny look like an innocent cherub. It's also mentioned that a wreath arrives for the deceased from Argentina, from his dear old friends...it must have been daring stuff for 1958 (when the 'clerical-fascists' still ran Germany, as one old German coworker used to describe his childhood pre-1968)

Spoiler

Spoiler

Not that it's necessarily a German film (although the director and many of the actors are), but there was also a bit character in One, Two, Three (1961) that I always found amusing. The German assistant to the American Coca Cola executive begins the film by claiming to have been in "the underground" during the war (later clarified to mean he worked in the Ubahn/subway, although he obviously wanted to imply the resistance). At a later point, the American Coca Cola executive gets threatened by a German journalist with an unflattering article being published and the assistant walks in on them. It turns out it's his old commanding officer.

From the subway, asks the American executive? No, from the SS....

Unfortunately the only clip I could find is in Spanish dubbing, but another great film (Billy Wilder comedy, on location shooting in West Berlin just as the wall was going up and interesting jokes about the Soviets trading rockets for cigars with Cuba)

Spoiler

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

It's not very academic or scientific, but German movies from the post war era certainly suggest to me that it was out in the open that many people in high places in business anyways, had Nazi pasts, or had fled to South America. I wouldn't agree with Andre to say they controlled everything, etc, but I don't think it's fair to say they lead unremarkable lives either. Clearly it must have been plain enough for everyday people to relate to if they could reference it in the movies.

There was a scandal over UN Secretary General/Austrian President Kurt Waldheim as well, and what he got up to between the years 1942-1945.

Anyways, part of the summary of the film Wir Wunderkinder (1958):

Spoiler

"Finally, in the period known as the Wirtschaftswunder, Bruno has risen to the rank of Generaldirektor (head of company) while Hans works as a journalist. When he writes a critical article, referencing Bruno's Nazi past, Bruno visits Boeckel's boss and threatens to organise an advertising boycott of the paper unless Hans retracts the story. Hans refuses and Bruno storms out.

At Bruno's funeral, the attending political and economic leaders are shown to have previously been involved with the Nazi party as well, and they vow to "continue onwards in his spirit"

The first clip below contains the main song of the movie (and is interesting for a montage presenting the rebuilt Germany's wealth), while the second one is the full length feature, but Russian dubbed version (unfortunately only extracts are on youtube in German).

The Russian dubbed one is interesting to see the end of, even just for the visuals, as the director picked particularly evil looking actors to be funeral attendees, with enough Schmisse to make Skorzeny look like an innocent cherub. It's also mentioned that a wreath arrives for the deceased from Argentina, from his dear old friends...it must have been daring stuff for 1958 (when the 'clerical-fascists' still ran Germany, as one old German coworker used to describe his childhood pre-1968)

Spoiler

Spoiler

Not that it's necessarily a German film (although the director and many of the actors are), but there was also a bit character in One, Two, Three (1961) that I always found amusing. The German assistant to the American Coca Cola executive begins the film by claiming to have been in "the underground" during the war (later clarified to mean he worked in the Ubahn/subway, although he obviously wanted to imply the resistance). At a later point, the American Coca Cola executive gets threatened by a German journalist with an unflattering article being published and the assistant walks in on them. It turns out it's his old commanding officer.

From the subway, asks the American executive? No, from the SS....

Unfortunately the only clip I could find is in Spanish dubbing, but another great film (Billy Wilder comedy, on location shooting in West Berlin just as the wall was going up and interesting jokes about the Soviets trading rockets for cigars with Cuba)

Spoiler

I should have learned German when I had the chance . . . . .

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

For typical school education I'd say you get a certain level of glossing over the fact that Soviet-controlled Germany was a bit more thorough in Denazification, that Germany wasn't always ready to acknowledge its WW2 guilt; there's little general debate about themes like "Ostvertreibung" (too easy to get apologetic about), economic explanations move pretty quickly and superficially through the Marshal Plan, "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" and German-French European cooperation. Politically there's usually just a bit of "there were occupation zones and then there weren't after a while, also we didn't manage to get rid of the Saarland". Maybe a bit about the new Grundgesetz und how it's much better than the Weimarer constitution was. There's some "favorite" topics picked out like Trümmerfrauen, but other bits get completely ignored. Lastly every child has to swear an oath to keep all information on German moon bases secret.

I think the real concern are the Vril tunnels existence.

What is Trummerfrauen, what does this refer to please?

 

[JodelDiplom]

Lastly every child has to swear an oath to keep all information on German moon bases secret.

Pyoro you Dummkopf!! We don't talk about that to Auslaender!!

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

I have to ask again. What is the concrete question of this thread?

 

[loup99]

@JodelDiplom suggested I was describing a chain of events that differed from the official version of 'History'. This surprises no one and as always I am happy to elaborate and would actually enjoy a discussion on this matter.

As if an "official version" of history existed. What "official" version? That of academics? That taught in elementary schools? That promoted by politicians in memorial events? They are rarely, if ever the same. Indeed, amongst historians, there are big debates and varying interpretations, and what you will learn at elementary school will never be up to date with the latest academic debate, at best it will vulgarisation of decade-old knowledge. So be very careful with people who come with their own personal theory claiming they contradict the "official history".

 

[Nick Giordano]

Andre, I understand your ideas and points about certain Nazi leaders starting new lives in South America and associating themselves with South American leadership... a mans gotta eat. But I fail to understand what makes it profound? After all, what did it actually change? Unless your entire point is that they escaped justice, but I got the feeling there's more to it than that.

 

[Kazanov]

How is Germany so intertwined with the Southern cone of South America during this time

We were born as Colonial nations always looking at the sea, most of our capitals are focused on carrying the resources from the countryside towards our ports and then Europe.

When mommy Spain got sick and Aunt France throwed her into a ditch (they had serious issues) uncle England was helping us out with trade and development, but then our Northern brother got ambitious and wanted to replace England as our caretaker.

We didnt wanted our cringey older brother to run the things all by himself, ...so we looked across the sea from a rising power who promised us to be safe from the other Empires.

Germany not only helped us to modernize our land armies (who were still using Napoleonic tactics by 1880-1890), they offered a completely different take on a lot of things, from administration, to agriculture, to how to develop our southern lands, and after they defeated the French we looked at them as the most viable option to rise up from the mud.

Thats why we received so many German migrants between 1880 and 1914, we were forced to end that relationship by the United States...but until 1945 we tried too hard to ignore them...

Most of our right-left wing governments of the time symphatized with....nazi Germany, in 1938 some young students (mostly German descendants) tried to launch a coup to align us more with the nazis but failed and were massacred. And until this day if you look closely at our right wing parties you will see a lot of German lastnames.

When the Germans lost the Second World war we welcomed the """refugees""" with open arms the same way we received European jews, Ottoman Palestinians and other groups of European migrants that came here and helped to improve our countries following the European ways of development.

In Kaiserreich scenario we would have undoubtedly aligned with the victorious German Empire, we didnt wanted to grow under the shadow of the United States, France and England were decaying in our region, Spain was dead, and there were no other options available.

When the Soviets won, most "independentist" sectors became communist and aligned with them. The same is slowly happening with our new Chinese overlords...

 

[Geriander]

Amazingly so. Miraculous, some might call it.

Nothing very unusual about it. The importance of human capital at work.

Europe after the war was an excellent investment opportunity. A large well educated population with technical know-how, desperate enough to work at low wages.

With access to global financial markets, getting the physical capital to rebuild under such conditions was never going to be a problem.

 

[Pyoro]

What is Trummerfrauen, what does this refer to please?

I'd make a joke about Graf but I still value my life a little too much.

Means something like "rubble women"; basically they helped clean up the bombed cities. It's seen as some sort of heroic "movement" of sorts in the immediate aftermath of WW2; but, really, the figures weren't that large, and it was simply a way to get (a little bit of) money and food. It's certainly something that happened and all that but it's a bit hard to understand why it's so prominent in lots of German school curriculums compared to many other things that went on at the time.

 

[Rustrider]

What is said and teached, upper level of nazi hierachy got convicted by occupation forces or fleed, middle and lower level went through reeducation for some time if caught, otherwise lived there lifes unmolested till there children grew up and noticed, that the evildoers were found in all positions of power, the silence between the generation (what have you done between 33-45) was never really questioned or broken. 68 is often seen as the big fault line.