Words of wisdom

[monsterfurby]

Allow me to be so bold and open a thread in this, as of yet, innocent forum.

First of all, I would like to give a tip of the hat to Paradox and say that, while this is certainly a project of the "obviously good to sell to the management" category (hey, Japan is 'in fashion', thanks to CA), that does not diminish the fact that it is a promising project in its own right.

Now, dear community, let me comment on something; namely, the reactions of those who followed this announcement in this forum and on youtube. I have always considered the Paradox community an intelligent and communicative bunch, but the reactions to this announcement seem, for the most part, very negative. Why is that? Tell me, has Paradox ever disappointed you with a game based on its premise? Honestly, I would absolutely have despised the idea of an Alexander/Greece-based Clausewitz game, but I would probably have gone along. Why? Because Paradox deserves my trust in this. Before EU3, I didn't care for the period between 1400 and 1700 either - guess what, now I do.

If the era chosen by the team is not your thing, consider letting the game teach you about its intriguing parts. If you think that this is but an attempt to flick off CA and provide an alternative in direct contest with their Shogun 2: Total War, consider this: If you are going to buy one Sengoku Jidai-based grand strategy game this year or next (or whenever Sengoku will be released - I am hoping for this to bridge the gap until CK2, of course), which one will it be? Paradox, or CA?

Since I have just made the mistake of almost getting wound up in the Youtube comments for the trailer and maybe missing the right voice a bit over there, I shall leave this here with a call to comment in a civilized manner, offer constructive criticism that does not boil down to "I hate this game because I wanted a Dark Ages/Alexander/whatnot game". Tell them why you are skeptical, only that way they can improve the game!

 

[Davisx3m]

Hear hear!

 

[Duzaroo]

I honestly would have preferred the Greek game, as I've conquered Japan a thousand times over in other war games, but oh well. Worse things have happened in my life then not getting the video game I want...Like I nicked myself while shaving yesterday. I'll wait and see what the features are like.

 

[Legolas]

I don't particularly like Japan, so I am simply going to pretend this is going to be a fantasy grand strategy game, which is what I wanted this to be.

 

[EUROO7]

Whisper words of wisdom.

Are people not allowed to express how they feel?

 

[Orinsul]

theyre not expressing how theyre feeling, theyre being rude.
now i dont like japan, but that doesnt give me the right to say its stupid idea, its not its just not one i personally like. the way some people are commenting, damn near insulting paradox outright. thats inexcusable
itll probably be still be a great game, because im not interesting it in i'll just ignore it unless it looks especially fun, not curse it to the high heavens as many are doing, thats just being rude

 

[tuore]

I honestly would have preferred the Greek game, as I've conquered Japan a thousand times over in other war games, but oh well. Worse things have happened in my life then not getting the video game I want...Like I nicked myself while shaving yesterday. I'll wait and see what the features are like.

"Getting thy game is not important. It could be a lot worse: thou could hit thyself while shaving."

Words of wisdom, indeed.

 

[monsterfurby]

Of course they are. Heck, that's what I am doing with this thread, too. But the way it's uttered makes two worlds of a difference. And I was sort of shocked by the amount of "omfg i hate paradox now" comments. Admittedly, mostly on Youtube, but it seemed going overboard when a simple "I don't really care for the time period, guess I will sit out this one" could have done.

 

[EUROO7]

Of course they are. Heck, that's what I am doing with this thread, too. But the way it's uttered makes two worlds of a difference. And I was sort of shocked by the amount of "omfg i hate paradox now" comments. Admittedly, mostly on Youtube, but it seemed going overboard when a simple "I don't really care for the time period, guess I will sit out this one" could have done.

Coincidendally, that's exactly what I said in that other thread.

 

[Nyrael]

theyre not expressing how theyre feeling, theyre being rude.

^this

Hearts of Iron is the only PI game series I don't like and I was not jumping from joy when I heard about then ext expansion being a HoI expansion.
However, never did I criticize them for doing a HoI game. It is their choice and there are people who will like it. Hell, if someone attacked HoI I would attack that person.

Wanting a different game is fine, but that does not justify going overboard with rudeness (and a lot of people do exactly that).

 

[monsterfurby]

Coincidendally, that's exactly what I said in that other thread.

I suppose that you are part of the "intelligent" side of the debate I explicitly praise in this thread. The finger-wagging is not directed at you

 

[Barón Rojo]

Fanboyst rage has started.

"Why is that? Tell me, has Paradox ever disappointed you with a game based on its premise?"

Rome and Diplomacy?

...and HoI3.

But I concur with you in one thing. I prefer much more a game about Japan than about Greece and, specially, Alexander.
Alexander. The game about two countries in war each other. What an interesting game it would be!

 

[Duzaroo]

"Getting thy game is not important. It could be a lot worse: thou could hit thyself while shaving."

Words of wisdom, indeed.

Thank you. I like to think that thousands of years from now future archeologist will dig up the hard drive from this server and see these words and realize just how wise I really am and then falsly speculate on what I did with all my free time.

 

[Nyrael]

But I concur with you in one thing. I prefer much more a game about Japan than about Greece and, specially, Alexander.
Alexander. The game about two countries in war each other. What an interesting game it would be!

Honestly, Alexander is something that fits TW series better.
For a Grand Strategy, Death of Alexander would have been more fitting... but most people didn't ask for that... and it can be done as an expansion to unpopular EU: Rome (and it was already shown that Alexander's age is something that PI planned to have as an expansion to Rome anyway).

 

[Zechariah Zevi]

Eh, people have already made plenty of Sengoku Jidai games, so I don't see how your analogy with EU3 works. There are plenty of people -- the majority of those saying they were disappointed on this forum, I suspect -- who are genuinely disappointed and have explained why, but who have been prepared to give Paradox the benefit of the doubt with whether they can make an interesting game. I don't like to be direct usually, but with all due respect monsterfurby your moralising here and on Youtube isn't going to help: it certainly won't convince the instinctive naysayers and it won't make people who were disappointed magically stop being disappointed.

 

[Golwar]

Of course they are. Heck, that's what I am doing with this thread, too. But the way it's uttered makes two worlds of a difference. And I was sort of shocked by the amount of "omfg i hate paradox now" comments. Admittedly, mostly on Youtube, but it seemed going overboard when a simple "I don't really care for the time period, guess I will sit out this one" could have done.

You exaggerate a bit. Most dislikes are solely based on criticism on this specific scenario and nothing else.
And sorry, some points are indeed worth to be questioned. For example that they develop CK2 and a similar asian brother of it at the same time. If Activision tries to sell us the same all over again yearly or even quicker, they also get questioned.

So there I am, I ask questions. Either time will bring answers when the game is released, or Johan changes his mind and decides to answer some of our questions earlier.
No idea what could be so horrible about it.

 

[MannheimCouncil]

I think much of this is due to disappointed expectations. There was quite some ambiguity in the hints and the Greek/Fantasy/SF crowd was probably thinking they might finally get their game. It might be better not to give any hints the next time.

Another issue is the fact that this seems to be quite similar in topic to Divine Wind and in mechanics to Crusader Kings 2. I guess that makes people feel like they are paying twice for recycled ideas and code. Of course, it is much too early to say whether this will be a flop or a classic.

Personally, while I find the period interesting I not exactly flush with excitement. For me this one is a title I might get after the second patch during a sale that gives me at least 25% off. That's probably not the reaction Paradox is looking for. The only issue I could possibly have at this early date is that the map while great-looking seems to have very few provinces, indicating a game of maybe one fourth the scape of EU3: Rome. This will possibly change, but it makes you wonder whether there will enough off-map excitement to make up for this. Also the prominent place given to ninja is not exactly encouraging.

Anyway, here's hoping that this will be a game where the player can score points by being a perfect courtier, supporting scholars and the arts as well as by being a consummate warrior, equipping his every soldier with superior weapons and armour and cultivating the loyalty of honourable retainers.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

Wait one second, let me get this straight. You are letting Youtube comments bother you? For real?

I'll just let xkcd handle this one:

 

[Zechariah Zevi]

I think much of this is due to disappointed expectations. There was quite some ambiguity in the hints and the Greek/Fantasy/SF crowd was probably thinking they might finally get their game. It might be better not to give any hints the next time.

I don't actually think that's true in the majority of cases. I for one was specifically disappointed in the Japan setting rather than disappointed in my own preferred period not coming true, and I'm certain from reading the comments being posted that many others are in that situation. There are a number of reasons which have already been enumerated as to why Japan may have been a poor choice.

Like I said, I think it's worthwhile to wait and see what the game will be like first, but I think it's highly simplistic to suggest that people have given such an unusually negative reaction simply because they wanted something else and they didn't get that specific thing.

EDIT: Golwar above me said the same thing but better

 

[monsterfurby]

Eh, people have already made plenty of Sengoku Jidai games, so I don't see how your analogy with EU3 works. There are plenty of people -- the majority of those saying they were disappointed on this forum, I suspect -- who are genuinely disappointed and have explained why, but who have been prepared to give Paradox the benefit of the doubt with whether they can make an interesting game. I don't like to be direct usually, but with all due respect monsterfurby your moralising here and on Youtube isn't going to help: it certainly won't convince the instinctive naysayers and it won't make people who were disappointed magically stop being disappointed.

Probably not, but it's not aiming at that either. Just throwing my opinion in there, hoping to see a bit more optimism around here. Admittedly, I overestimated the availability of an "edit" button on Youtube (my comment there admittedly did go overboard) and "words of wisdom" is a big term - but the point stands: I know these forums for civil debates and would hate to see the youtube style of debate spill over. This being entirely independent of where you or I stand concerning Sengoku itself.

As for there being plenty of Sengoku Jidai games... yeah, well, let's list them:
Nobunaga's Ambition 1-13: Mostly never translated into English, although the best examples of the setting. Unknown to most who are not avid Koei-Fans.
Takeda 1 and 2: Made by the small indie developer Magitech. 1 was a good game, 2 tried to emulate something between NA and STW a little bit too hard and failed in both due to it being, ultimately, a low-profile, low-budget production.
Sword of the Samurai: DOS game. Has been a while and is gravely underappreciated.
EU3: Divine Wind: Disappointed in regards to Japan, and most mods fixing that are still unstable and in development.
Shogun: Total War: There have been quite a few posts now about the difference between Total War and the Paradox games.

I don't think that there is no room for a Western equal to Nobunaga's Ambition. And Paradox is a good candidate for delivering that.