Will there be more Occitan flavor/content ?

[Makoota]

(First I have to acknowledge the fact that I am not knowledgeable about Occitan history till the XIXth century, so I will get things wrong ! I am just willing to discuss and attract attention and a bit of love towards a region that is more often than not just seen as French clay and not much else besides that)

In EU4, Occitan culture was part of the French culture group (I guess for quality of gameplay reasons, as it would be an issue to have legitimate French clay not in their culture group). The last Occitan states (Foix, Armagnac, Provence in a way ?, etc.) have little to no incentive to unite Occitan culture (no formable, no content); other than more provinces before uniting France once again maybe.

I guess in EU4, it has been 173 years since the end of the County of Toulouse (the main "independent" Occitan state ig), so "Occitan nationalism" (not a good term I think) may have been non-existent in a way.
But here, at 1337, it has been like 66 years, even if the Raymondine dynasty has ended, I think some counter-power/unrest/interest could be drawn from the region. Additionally, the Hundred Years' war may transform parts of Occitania (parts of Aquitaine typically) into hotspots. (although, I don't know of course how Paradox will tackle/manage the Hundred Years' war)

The region has so much history and complexity, being in between Italy, France, and Spain (more importantly, Aragon and Catalonia, they have a long history), while including great trade strongholds (Bordeaux, Toulouse, Montpellier, Marseille, etc.), monuments (University of Toulouse, Fortress of Carcassone, Cathedral of Albi (who has not been completed in 1337),etc.), and a variety of trade goods/production.

[Is it obvious I'm from this place lmao ?]

Addendum: Is there in EU4 localised names for Occitan provinces in Occitan language when ruled by Occitan State (ie Tolosa instead of Toulouse, etc.) ?

 

[Makoota]

I'll just post additional thoughts here if that's not weird:

I just saw that Cathars are confirmed in PC. Could this mean resurgent Catharism in Occitania as well? (I don't know if there are any remnants to begin with in 1337)

Have vassals or decentralized systems been discussed? Parliaments in southern France were a thing in the mid-XVth century because of the specificity of law/legislation and the fact that these areas were seen as "far away" from the royal court. Therefore the Parliaments of Toulouse/Bordeaux could also add flavour to these areas in a France-controlled Occitania ... (See "Estates of Languedoc" for example). At this point in history, there is still a huge deal about the cultural/language differences between northern and southern France.

(And I checked and there were in fact multiple uprisings against the royal power (~1380) as well. And uprising by the peasantry as well before that. Then rebellious attitude by Occitan representatives seems possible).

 

[William the Merry]

What does flavour and content look like to you? Events? Special monuments? Pre scripted outcomes?

 

[Makoota]

What does flavour and content look like to you? Events? Special monuments? Pre scripted outcomes?

Although I do not know if monuments will make a comeback, or how events will be handled in PC, I kind of hope for some events (not only political events or cultural ones, but maybe even trade/goods related ? (Like Limoges Porcelain or pastel for Toulouse ?))
Special monuments would be nice sure, I always found monuments in EU4 to be a great way to attract the attention of the player to some place he may not be accustomed to and tell him "Here look, this place has some significance/history" (with the addition of bonuses of course). So yeah, why not some monuments, but as I said, I do not know if this feature will make a comeback in PC.


In games like EU4, I do not know if Pre scripted outcomes are that reliable, I feel like it would have to take too many things into account - that's what it feels like to me, but please correct me if it is done well in EU4 or other paradox games

We know that missions trees as we know them will not return (there will be maybe something similar to missions tho), so maybe an incentive or some missions giving flavour and direction towards consolidation of Occitan home region or something (we have to bear in mind that Occitan cultural region, in its own complexity and variety, has never been united under one realm so it's more make-believe ambition than the traditional goal for the Occitan rulers)


There might be better and more interesting content to be added, I definitely need more time to think about it (although I might not get any better responses than that ! ^^')

 

[bokorthedust]

why not some monuments, but as I said, I do not know if this feature will make a comeback in PC.

According to Johan, it won't.

 

[Eraneir]

In a political way, the Parlement of Toulouse (a judicial and not legislative institution) was the first regional parlement created in France. It spectacularly backfired 2 century latter, with Louis XIII, Louis XIV, Louis XV and Louis XVI having recurring conflicts upon royal edicts and their applications.

This conflict is one root of the decision of Louis XVI to call for Estates general in 1789...

 

[Thorum]

According to Johan, it won't.

What's the fundamental difference between euivs monuments and euvs "culture/region/religion/tag-specific" buildings "that give effects"?
(Quoted bits from tt9)

 

[bokorthedust]

What's the fundamental difference between euivs monuments and euvs "culture/region/religion/tag-specific" buildings "that give effects"?

Availability, at a glance, and to some degree scope. You can't beeline Malta, Alhambra or Bangkok if it's tied to culture (though that also depends on what happens to accepted cultures in EU4), plus I honestly hope that they tone down whatever bonuses and modifiers uniquely availably stuff will give to the player. There's a difference between say a caravanserai providing extra merchant capacity, or capacity cost reduction and a palace magically making your country able to hold more land directly, conquer more effectively, or a couple of forts making you able to take more land in a war against heathens.

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

I would really like for Occitan, Catalan and Valencian to be all in the same culture group. It sure would be much more realistic than catalonia being its own culture and Valencian part of it which is a ahistorical abomination, since they are all part of the same, all three developing at the same time, not coming out of either one of those three in particular.


It would make for some interesting gameplay, more realistic as well with more a reason for Aragon to stick around their holdings in southern france. Also they would all share the occitan language whuch as we have learnt in the dev diary would help with trade

 

[Thorum]

Culture groups are a difficult subject, since they also play a role in the historical aspect of the game.

But, since the only thing we know about cultures is the "Language: Baltic" from one of Wednesday's screenshots (unless I missed something?), separating a few aspects that together form a culture, might solve that.
You could group the Occitan/Ottoman language correctly, while having more ethereal aspects so a variation on their actual history remains a plausible outcome.

 

[Keksburg]

have little to no incentive to unite Occitan culture

Why should they do so? Linguistic/cultural factor matters little in the legitimacy of authorities before the age of nationalism in about 18C. Before that, languages only affect the administrative efficiency especially in cities, considering rural areas in ancient time were highly autonomous.

I would really like for Occitan, Catalan and Valencian to be all in the same culture group. It sure would be much more realistic than catalonia being its own culture and Valencian part of it which is a ahistorical abomination, since they are all part of the same, all three developing at the same time, not coming out of either one of those three in particular.

EUIV has only two traits to identify a culture: its name and its cultural group. It’s fair that Oil, Oc, Iberian and Dacian are treated as four cultural group, but there should also another trait saying that these are all of Latin.

Vicky3 presents a good example, where three traits may be able to solve most questions:
- specific name
- regional trait (geography)
- legacy trait (tradition)

 

[Makoota]

Why should they do so? Linguistic/cultural factor matters little in the legitimacy of authorities before the age of nationalism in about 18C.

You're right, they do not have a reason (and history has shown us that the Occitan population did not rise for nationalism). Local history is not that much relevant to national history. Even nationalist movements in the XIXth century and the 1970s struggled to make these factors count for a political movement.

I guess a path of independence doesn't seem neither legitimate nor coherent ...

Perhaps, what should be more represented is the attitude of Occitan Estates representatives (loyal to the crown but seeking more privileges/rights, that is). Eraneir's response made me think that there could be specific Estates Building that would provide bonuses and maluses (The Parliaments could be represented that way).
Instead of seeking independent Occitan countries, more flavour for these Occitan provinces as parts of the kingdom of France could be interesting.
It's just that it feels like bland French land in previous games usually, a bit of shame.

 

[Eraneir]

Perhaps, what should be more represented is the attitude of Occitan Estates representatives (loyal to the crown but seeking more privileges/rights, that is). Eraneir's response made me think that there could be specific Estates Building that would provide bonuses and maluses (The Parliaments could be represented that way).

Well, in game term, parlement seems to have been an overcharged bailiff: giving a ton of control, but at the cost of a ton of power to the nobles (well, to the robins, really and that is another good question: are robins burgher or nobles in game term ? ^^').

Instead of seeking independent Occitan countries, more flavour for these Occitan provinces as parts of the kingdom of France could be interesting.
It's just that it feels like bland French land in previous games usually, a bit of shame.

It's true that occitanie was really well integrated into the kingdom during the ancien regime. Maybe because the kingdom was mostly in peace with its local particularisms. There will be more conflict with the republic.

The other region particularity that come to my mind is the Canal du Midi.

 

[Keksburg]

Instead of seeking independent Occitan countries, more flavour for these Occitan provinces as parts of the kingdom of France could be interesting.

There seems to be a “Kingdom of Aquitaine” before 10C in CK. I’m not familiar with its history, but this along with “Kingdom of Burgundy” could be considered as an alt-target when start as Oc countries?

 

[Makoota]

Well, in game term, parlement seems to have been an overcharged bailiff: giving a ton of control, but at the cost of a ton of power to the nobles (well, to the robins, really and that is another good question: are robins burgher or nobles in game term ? ^^').

I could see such building( +Control, + Noble Influence/power) in the game I guess. It seems like a good tradeoff.
And such there are a lots of other buildings like this. Albi Cathedral was built after the Albigensian war for stronger catholic rule.
But some particularities like the one you mentioned are also often "recent" (ie XVIIIth or XVIIth century). I don't know how this would work for such specific buildings ...

 

[Makoota]

There seems to be a “Kingdom of Aquitaine” before 10C in CK. I’m not familiar with its history, but this along with “Kingdom of Burgundy” could be considered as an alt-target when start as Oc countries?

There seems to be a “Kingdom of Aquitaine” before 10C in CK. I’m not familiar with its history, but this along with “Kingdom of Burgundy” could be considered as an alt-target when start as Oc countries?


Well, in 1337 there was a duchy of Aquitaine (or whatever the rank) that was a vassal of England. This could play some role in the Hundred Years' War, for an England win. England doesn't have the same legitimacy to rule Occitan lands that France has. So maybe some concessions and interactions will have to be made. This could provide more flavour between the English crown and the Oc land.
(Burgundy isn't considered part of Oc culture tho?)

 

[Makoota]

Maybe because the kingdom was mostly in peace with its local particularisms

And now that I think about it, during the Albigensian Crusade, I remember that for some time, against Montfort, lots of Occitan people (and not just population, but counts, etc.) were united to fight off "foreign influence" (ie. ruler, Montfort not being from the Oc region). Examples are Foix sending thousands of troops to help Raymond VI and then Raymond VII. The coalition vanished when Louis VIII levied an army and marched on the south - occitan lords feared the French "crusader" army. And after Avignon, Toulouse was left mostly alone ...

Although, the context was particularly complex (Montfort claiming for all of Toulouse's land (the county), catharism and crusade, etc.

 

[Keksburg]

(Burgundy isn't considered part of Oc culture tho?)

There's a decision in CK3 that give the player with the title of k_burugndy and change the primary culture to Oc.

This change is probably because that the k_burgundy lies in Provence, which is the primary cultural tag of Oc the culture in EUIV.

 

[Eraneir]

Well, in 1337 there was a duchy of Aquitaine (or whatever the rank) that was a vassal of England. This could play some role in the Hundred Years' War, for an England win. England doesn't have the same legitimacy to rule Occitan lands that France has. So maybe some concessions and interactions will have to be made. This could provide more flavour between the English crown and the Oc land.

The kings of England absolutely tried to play this card, but I can't recall if it was during the Hundred Year Wars or before. Basically, they tried to attract local families along the Garonne over them in order for their influence to reach Toulouse and beyond. I think it wasn't really successful. And I don't remember what my source is. Take it with a grain of salt.

I just remembered there was a revolt in Occitanie during the time period, and a big one. War of the Camisards occured when Louis XIV revoked the Nantes edict. It was mostly an irregular war, and played a huge role in thinking counter-insurrection warfare up to the revolution.

Edit: In this map of territory ceded in the Bretigny traite, you can see that it is mostly an enlargement of the aquitaine duchy, mostly into Occitanie (all territories south of Perigord). This occitanie part was mostly recovered without battle in 1370 by Charles V, showing that the english occupation of this territory was in fact pretty hollow...

 

[overthetop_G]

Cathars, you say? St. Dominic and I need to get our Rosary beads, we have a crusade to fight!

Cathar-related warring aside, one thing that EU4 does poorly is representing just how different cultures were. In 1337, men from the south of England mistook the speech of Yorkshire men as French, and Gascons were viewed as a separate people from the French. So, yes, we need Occitan content.