Werewolf LXXXIV: Aces of the Pacific

[muttoneer]

Yes, I was wondering why you and muttoneer wouldn't just agree to leaderlynch one of the wolves - walrus would have worked as well as Yakman - but I guess you two are just too loyal players, never backstabbing anyone which is good to know for coming games...

I saw a PM AOK sent to Yakman a few days ago and it had me completely convinced he was a goodie. Ah well! I guess I am too loyal for my own good, but then you should all know that particular weakness of mine by now...

Here's to the next game!

 

[OrangeYoshi]

How on earth can you say that? Seriously, you cannot possibly believe that.

What could you have done?

* Given me a target of some sort - a likely baddie

You were the most likely baddie in my eyes, and you were threatening to shoot a JL member.

* Shot me a PM saying "We'll give you a target when we get one, please don't hunt anyone"

"No, not yet." Does that ring a bell?

* Warned me of the consequences of shooting snoop

That should've been obvious, jonti. C'mon. You were threatening to shoot the JL.

Now please, for the love of Johan, admit you were wrong and stop defending the indefensible. It does not do you credit and is probably why you get killed so early.

And you admit that you were wrong in threatening to shoot the only known JL member and stop defending the indefensible.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

Two, you're free to vote for whomever you want. If you want to waste two days on lynching a likely villager, that's fine with me.

If we get to lynch you as a villager then lynch you as someone "more interesting" (likely a baddie) when you sub back in, I'm fine with that trade-off.

 

[AOK. 11]

When someone treatens to kill the JL spokesman, how does that not make him look like a baddie?

I hate how everyone just likes to say "You were wrong" and neither try to refute my arguments nor look at the situation in context.

Yeah, now that we know he was a goodie, we can all agree that it was bad to lynch him. But look at it when you don't know anyone but perhaps snoop's role, and analyze that situation.

What would you rather lose? A hunter or a powerless spokesperson to a non-existent and utterly annihilated JL? Which is preferable? A chance at him carrying out his threat, or for certain killing a claimed hunter? Would Jonti as a wolf, in that circumstance with the JL destroyed, feel the need to lie and falsely claim huntership? Or, would he rather stay quiet knowing his best path to sucess lay in staying out of the limelight. Publically stating ones role is often an act of desperation. Who would be desperate in that circumstance? A wolf? No. Absolutely not. They had it well in hand. A villager? Absolutely. The village was burning all around him.

You did not think it through. You only looked at it on the surface and made an avoidable and costly error. Learn from it.

I saw a PM AOK sent to Yakman a few days ago and it had me completely convinced he was a goodie. Ah well! I guess I am too loyal for my own good, but then you should all know that particular weakness of mine by now...

Here's to the next game!

When I look guilty, I am innocent. When I look innocent, lynch me immediately.

 

[jonti-h]

You were the most likely baddie in my eyes, and you were threatening to shoot a JL member.

Which a wolf would clearly do in the thread of course.
If I were a baddie, I would have just shot him.

"No, not yet." Does that ring a bell?

Of course it bloody does, I referenced it about five minutes ago in this very thread.

That should've been obvious, jonti. C'mon. You were threatening to shoot the JL.

Why do you think I picked the most obvious villager to threaten? Because I hoped that the JL would have a shred of common sense and then put me in contact with a 3rd party who could give me someone to bloody well shoot.

And you admit that you were wrong in threatening to shoot the only known JL member and stop defending the indefensible.

Don't try to be cute, it does not become you.

AOK is the best WW player. He says you are wrong. I am the most successful, I say you are wrong. sbr is damn good, he says you are wrong. See a theme here?

 

[OrangeYoshi]

What would you rather lose? A hunter or a powerless spokesperson to a non-existent and utterly annihilated JL?

Would I rather lose a maybe goodie or a known goodie? The maybe goodie.

Which is preferable? A chance at him carrying out his threat, or for certain killing a claimed hunter?

With that certain threat, killing the claimed hunter.

Would Jonti as a wolf, in that circumstance with the JL destroyed, feel the need to lie and falsely claim huntership? Or, would he rather stay quiet knowing his best path to sucess lay in staying out of the limelight. Publically stating ones role is often an act of desperation. Who would be desperate in that circumstance? A wolf? No. Absolutely not.

You are coming at the thought that he was only a Cylon. While that is what I was hoping for, a Cannibal would've been desperate enough to do something like that. I was hoping he was a Cylon, but a Cannibal would've been fine too.

You did not think it through. You only looked at it on the surface and made an avoidable and costly error. Learn from it.

What else could I have done? Just sat there while wolves continued to run the lynches and watch as villager after villager continued to get lynched? I had to do something. jonti just happened to be a lead on something.

 

[jonti-h]

What else could I have done? Just sat there while wolves continued to run the lynches and watch as villager after villager continued to get lynched? I had to do something. jonti just happened to be a lead on something.

You have been told what you could have done. Instead, you leader lynched someone potentially useful to the village. Can you really not see the error here?

 

[johho888]

GM AAR, part 1

Night1
Seer scanned noone
Priest scanned sbr the doc
Sorc scanned jacob the cursed apprentice
Doc Hax stayed home
Doc sbr protected jacob the cursed apprentice
Lover randakar stayed home
Lover Walter stayed home
Cylons ate Slinky the priest

Terrible start for the goodies, priest lost, sorcerer found another apprentice, seer absent.
Was upset with Cylons for eating Slinky since I liked his RPing so much I named one pack after his enemies. As it turned out they didn't eat him because of the name which was a relief.

Day 2
rexodia48 the blessed apprentice got lynched.

Night 2
Seer scanned noone
Sorc scanned trespoe the villager
Doc Hax protected Paendrag the villager (one night too early)
Doc sbr protected and saved marty the villager
Lover randakar stayed home
Lover Walter stayed home
Cannibals attacked marty the villager who got saved by the doc

rexodia was a zombie so good riddance. Doc save might compensate for absent seer, hope he will show up or some villager gets killed so he can sub

Day 3
Village lynched Jester the brutal werewolf in a late vote swing

Night 3
Seer scanned noone
Sorcerer scanned the seer
Doc Hax protected Rysz the villager
Doc sbr protected EURO the witness (one night too early)
Lover randakar stayed home
Lover AOK stayed home
Cylons ate Paendrag the villager
marty recovered and spotted Raczynski the Cannibal werewolf

I hate the random vote swings that makes the first days impossible to analyze nowadays - but it actually worked here. Cannibals will have a hard time recovering from this.

Day 4
The village lynched Doc Hax
The seer got autolynched

First I was really impressed by how marty got everyone to vote on day when there should have been a bandwagon. Then I got really unimpressed when no late outing occured and a doc got lynched. At least the sorcerer couldn't make contact with wolves yet.

Couldn't be bothered to find a sub for the seer since he was going to get eaten next night now that the sorcerer knew about him.

Night 4
Sorcerer scanned Raczynski the wolf
Doc sbr protected noone (got fed up with the idiot villagers, "noone worth protecting")
Lover randakar stayed with Ciryandor
Lover AOK stayed home
Cannibals ate EURO the witness

 

[OrangeYoshi]

Which a wolf would clearly do in the thread of course.
If I were a baddie, I would have just shot him.

Maybe, maybe not. You say yourself that you threatened him to get in contact with someone who might know something or was more important. As baddie might do that to get in contact with that more important person so he could kill them.

Of course it bloody does, I referenced it about five minutes ago in this very thread.

Good. Then your memory is still in tact. You threatened to kill snoop after I told you to not shoot someone yet.

Why do you think I picked the most obvious villager to threaten? Because I hoped that the JL would have a shred of common sense and then put me in contact with a 3rd party who could give me someone to bloody well shoot.

See above. That's a rather stupid thing to do. A better thing would just to get in PM contact.

AOK is the best WW player. He says you are wrong. I am the most successful, I say you are wrong. sbr is damn good, he says you are wrong. See a theme here?

So now we go back to the "You are wrong because we say you are wrong" argument?

 

[OrangeYoshi]

You have been told what you could have done. Instead, you leader lynched someone potentially useful to the village. Can you really not see the error here?

Someone potentially useful vs. someone who's thoughts can be trusted to be free of baddie tainting. I'd rather kill the potentially useful one.

You threatened him after I told you not to hunt someone.

 

[jonti-h]

Maybe, maybe not. You say yourself that you threatened him to get in contact with someone who might know something or was more important. As baddie might do that to get in contact with that more important person so he could kill them.

No, a baddie would stfu and try to find the sorc. If i was bad, and wanted to kill snoop I would have.

See above. That's a rather stupid thing to do. A better thing would just to get in PM contact.

I told you to let me know when I could be useful. I heard bugger all.

So now we go back to the "You are wrong because we say you are wrong" argument?

No, we are back to the "when the best/most experienced players in the WW community say you are wrong, you are" argument. Between us we have I'd estimate more years of WW experience than you have had years on this planet. Believe me it counts for something.

Someone potentially useful vs. someone who's thoughts can be trusted to be free of baddie tainting. I'd rather kill the potentially useful one.

So you have learned nothing? This is what you are telling me?

 

[Kriszo]

I sent NH a PM, but he hasn't been on since the 9th of February. I say we just skip him.

I support this, this way I actually have a chance to GM, as in the current position it is doubtful I can manage a GMing with me graduating and all.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

[snip]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Jopi]

When I look guilty, I am innocent. When I look innocent, lynch me immediately.

You set off all the alarms on my wolfdar when you suddenly popped out of the shadows you'd been lurking in and started to instruct village what was the best course of action. I thought about contacting you myself, but I asked Calamity to scan you first, just to make sure. I wanted to play by the numbers, our side was in such a good position at that moment that it did not justify me taking a risk.

 

[johho888]

GM AAR, part 2

Day 5
Village lynched Ciryandor the cursed apprentice

IIRC this day there were lots of baddies up for lynch but the village ended up with one of the few goodies that were in the race.

Night 5
Sorcerer scanned Yakman the wolf but sees two villagers since Yakman had company by randakar
Doc sbr forgot to protect
Lover randakar stayed with Yakman the wolf
Lover AOK stayed home
Cylons ate Rysz the villager

Still no outing of Raczynski!?

Day 6
Village wanted to lynch trespoe the villager
OrangeYoshi leaderlynched Raczynski the wolf

Night 6
Sorcerer scanned marty the villager
Doc sbr protected randakar's empty bed
Lover randakar stayed with snoopdogg
Lover AOK stayed with trespoe
Cannibals ate marty the villager

About time! I was worried marty would take the secret with him in his grave

Day 7
Village wanted to lynch vLN the villager
OrangeYoshi leaderlynched jonti the hunter villager

Night 7
Sorcerer scanned The Arch Mede the villager
Doc sbr protected OY
Lover randakar stayed with dublish the wolf
Lover AOK stayed home
Cylons turned walrus the cursed villager

Day 8
Village lynched vLN the villager

WTF is the village doing, isn't obvious that both vLN and OY are goodies!?

Night 8
Sorcerer scanned Kriszo the villager
Doc sbr protected snoopdogg (one night too early)
Lover randakar stayed home
Lover AOK stayed with jacob
Cannibals ate the_hdk the Cylon wolf

Evens it out between the packs a little. Probably the pack that makes contact with the sorcerers will win. The village is doomed now I think.

 

[AOK. 11]

Would I rather lose a maybe goodie or a known goodie? The maybe goodie.

No. The choice was between a known goodie cannon fodder villager who could do nothing and would be hunted eventually or a possible hunter. Losing a villager means nothing at that point. Losing a hunter hurts very badly. You also risked losing your own leader ability which gave the baddies that power.

With that certain threat, killing the claimed hunter.

Again, you are not thinking forward. You are stuck looking at what is in front of you instead of looking at the big picture. You will never be a great WW player that way.

You are coming at the thought that he was only a Cylon. While that is what I was hoping for, a Cannibal would've been desperate enough to do something like that. I was hoping he was a Cylon, but a Cannibal would've been fine too.

Why would the last Cannibal wolf publically claim huntership again? That is also not good strategy. You needed the Cannibal alive so that the Cylons would not take over completely. The only reason this thing went as long as it did was because the Cannibal was still alive. Once again, you miss the big picture.

What else could I have done? Just sat there while wolves continued to run the lynches and watch as villager after villager continued to get lynched? I had to do something. jonti just happened to be a lead on something.

You sound like a politician. WE HAVE TO DO...SOMETHING!!! First rule, do no harm. Especially when the village was already on the edge. Learn it. Live it. You could have sat back and waited for the wolves to start destroying each other while trying to convince Jonti not to kill Snoop and instead try to form a small goodie group to work with later in the game. A baddie on baddie bloodbath was inevitable here.

 

[johho888]

GM AAR, part 3

Day 9
Village lynched Tornadoli the brutal werewolf
Tornadoli brutalized randakar the lover

Made sense, Tornadoli was the most obvious baddie IMO (dublish and AOK not bad guesses either) and randakar the worst goodie threat against the baddies - active, analytical and lover so hard to hunt.

Night 9
Sorcerer scanned AOK the cultist
Doc sbr protect snoopdogg (one night too early)
Lover AOK stayed home
Cylons ate The Arch Mede the villager

made sense to eat TAM since he was active and at least sometimes pointed out relevant facts. I wonder if the Cylons thought he was the Cannibal he made himself out to be?

Day 10
Village lynched trespoe and Kriszo, two villagers

The Cylon/sorcerer block approves I am sure.

Night 10
Sorcerer scanmed sbr the doc
Lover AOK stayed with sbr the doc
sbr wanted to protect muttoneer the cultist but fell in love (again one night too early)
Cannibals ate snoopdogg the villager

GM error - forgot to tell the sorcerer she saw a villager AND a cultist. Hopefully that didn't affect anything since she was already in contact with AOK.
The Cannibals really needed to have either eliminated the Cylons or - most interesting - have turned jacob here.

Day 11
Village (controlled by Cylons) tried to lynch muttoneer.
muttoneer leaderlynched the sorcerer (earlier order that day for OY)

muttoneer would have to have picked the last Cylons for the Cannibals to win this.

Night 11
Sorcerer scanned noone
Doc sbr protected the only other goodie left alive, OY
Cylons ate muttoneer (previous order for Yakman, even earlier order for muttoneer)

Day 12
AOK leaderlynched Yakman the last Cannibal

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

I should have contacted you sooner about leader lynching your master. That would have ended the game and both you and Calamity could have survived. That was a mistake on my part. I knew sbr was a goodie, and even OY is not so retarded as to leader lynch a baddie ally in this circumstance, so you and Yakman had to be the guys. Yakman had been scanned by the sorc, so he was the wolf.

I should have contacted you and simply had you leader lynch Yakman. However, I thought that perhaps you would not believe me and it would make things messy and perhaps get me killed.

Oh well. Sorry about that.

I got killed once trying to explain a similar type situation and it is simply not worth it to throw away a well played game to try and hopefully get 1 or 2 more winners.


edit: ""Lover AOK stayed with jacob"" I wonder if that was the night I joked aok is the only packmate for me?

 

[OrangeYoshi]

No. The choice was between a known goodie cannon fodder villager who could do nothing and would be hunted eventually or a possible hunter. Losing a villager means nothing at that point. Losing a hunter hurts very badly. You also risked losing your own leader ability which gave the baddies that power.

1: This claimed hunter can't be trusted until he is asked to hunt someone (and even then, it would've probably ended up being a baddie. He obviously didn't want to wait to take orders from me on that, so what help would the hunter have given?

2: .... I don't have a number 2....

Again, you are not thinking forward. You are stuck looking at what is in front of you instead of looking at the big picture. You will never be a great WW player that way.

Care to explain to me how I'm not supposed to find someone suspicious when he threatens to kill a known goodie?

Why would the last Cannibal wolf publically claim huntership again?

As you said, claiming to be a hunter is a desperation move. A Cannibal would've been desperate to find someone important or to possibly find the other pack. Claiming huntership would've helped him from being hunted himself while also gaining him some sort of loyalty among the village. If asked to hunter-kill someone, he could always wolf-hunt them instead and just say that the wolf-hunt overrode the hunter-hunt. That could always pass because people are known to not read the rules.

You sound like a politician.

I do. It's terrible, isn't it?

You could have sat back and waited for the wolves to start destroying each other while trying to convince Jonti not to kill Snoop and instead try to form a small goodie group to work with later in the game.

I never considered trying to convince jonti to be sensible in that instance. That may have been the biggest mistake. I just assumed that after he goes around threatening villagers after I told him to lay low that he was a baddie.

And a small goodie group around what? Snoop? The person jonti is trying to kill? Assuming I didn't convince jonti, we are left with a bunch of unscanned people and with no villager knowing what the heck was going on.

The village lost this long before the leaderlynch of jonti. The leaderlynch didn't help, but stopping it certainly wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

Oh and as I said many times, there was no voting record evidence against me. I didn't know anyone except 2 people no one else cared to run up a vote on anyways.