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lll Sir Haze lll

Second Lieutenant
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May 2, 2019
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Hello fellow forum readers.

I would like to discuss the different kinds of mechanics paradox games use to try to prevent blobbing and which would/could work in CK3 thematically and practically.

For example: The defensive alliance and threat mechanics of CK2. Did you like them and what changes would you make if you'd implement it into CK3. Or would you propose a completely different approach.

For those unfamiliar with the system, the CK2 system meant if you conquer new parts for your realm you gained threat. (On a scale from 0-100%) Threat decayed after time and the higher your threat, the more people joined a defensive alliance against you.

I personally think it wasn't a perfect solution, it slowed expansion a little bit, but you could just wait it out til your target wasn't part of a defensive alliance anymore.

But what are your opinions on the matter?
 
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But what are your opinions on the matter?
Any solution that doesn't involve getting rid of or fundamental changing partition isn't actually a solution. Lets say you are playing as a Norse ruler in Scandinavia in the 867 start date. Now, ruler with a faith that has monogamous marriages can have tons of children, I've had multiple rulers with 7 to 9 children, and Tribal Asatru rulers are going to want to have concubines to get the prestige since that is the basis of tribal economies. If you are a king your heirs will be satisfied with a duchy as their inheritance but a) a single duchy isn't that much to work with as a tribal ruler in Scandinavia and b) the game actually wants you give all of your children a kingdom and is thus designed to allow you to do so. The reason why blobbing is so easy is to allow rulers, and especially the player, to successfully partition each generation so, unless partition changes blobbing won't.
 
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Hello fellow forum readers.

I would like to discuss the different kinds of mechanics paradox games use to try to prevent blobbing and which would/could work in CK3 thematically and practically.

For example: The defensive alliance and threat mechanics of CK2. Did you like them and what changes would you make if you'd implement it into CK3. Or would you propose a completely different approach.

For those unfamiliar with the system, the CK2 system meant if you conquer new parts for your realm you gained threat. (On a scale from 0-100%) Threat decayed after time and the higher your threat, the more people joined a defensive alliance against you.

I personally think it wasn't a perfect solution, it slowed expansion a little bit, but you could just wait it out til your target wasn't part of a defensive alliance anymore.

But what are your opinions on the matter?

  1. Make cultural and religious differences matter much more in realm management (outside the puny revolts where one enjoys playing whack-a-mole on different areas of his/her realm).
  2. Make cultural and religious factions to really bite.
  3. Make it harder and much less predictable to convert culture and religion on different provinces.
 
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Threat and defensive pacts don't work. All they do is slow a player down by throwing the world at them. But if you can with vs 60% of the world with 40%, next fight would be 59% of the world with 41%, and the challenge is gone. Would just turn into an unchallenging slog. What we really need are internal mechanics strong enough to rip up the blob from the inside, as has happened to many realms in this period.

Simple way to achieve this really. Factions need to have teeth. More teeth than now, actually. Cascading factions still is not strong enough to fracture stable blobs, as evidenced by anyone going on Observer mode.

Thing with factions is they *can* remain relevant regardless of blob size. If anything they become more relevant the larger the blob gets and the smaller the liege's desmense is relative to the realm. It's just that the later the game gets the stat and opinion inflation gets so high that factions simply don't fire with any strength.

Best ways to fix this. We desperately need to cut down the amount of positive modifiers a player or AI can accrue. Or at least not have them stack. Even one stat in the 20s by the third generation is too high, let alone multiple stats with what people can do with education/breeding/events.

Secondly we have to change marriage alliances from a non aggression pact between liege and vassal, to just an opinion bonus. It still allows the vassal to faction vs the liege. Doesn't make sense that we can murder/attempt to murder the vassal's heir so the daughter inherits or other things to infuriate the vassal, and the vassal can do nothing about it.

Third, we need to ensure a more reliable way to escape imprisonment. This is to prevent the liege from locking up all vassals and preventing factioning. Say, add an intrigue option for the imprisoned that utilizes agents amongst vassals and courtiers of the liege. Given that a liege who has a lot of vassals imprisoned usually does so via tyranny spree, it is a reliable way to find sympathizers to the cause.

Fourth, multiple duchy holders and Kings are eligible to faction for independence regardless of de jure. Kings in particular are much more likely to join any faction. They're kings, they bow to no man. This really only plays out in empire sized realms, adding an additional layer of maintenance required.

Lastly, fix dread. Doesn't make sense that you gain dread off executing or torturing someone irrelevant to your vassals. Nerf that down to 1 dread gain per insignificant kill. Doing so to a vassal or their relative however is a different story. Gain massive dread, but at the same time infuriate the aggrieved vassal and their allies even more, entrenching them as political enemies while cowing your more neutral or allied vassals.

The goal here is to eliminate exploits that pacify vassals (imprisonment and nonaggression pacts in particular) and make maintenance of the blob an increasing focus as realm size increases. The goal is to have a realm the size of 1066 France be the equilibrium point where the player would need to spend 90% of their time looking inwards, playing politics, and maintaining their realm for fear of fracture or usurpation. If they want to ignore that and go on a foreign great conquest, they are free to do so. But should not be surprised when everything becomes unmanageable and the realm fractures by the next generation as has happened to most big blobs historically.
 
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1. War needs to be costly and dangerous. A peace deal system beyond what is stipulated in the initial CB is needed so that if you (or any other major entity) lose a war badly you will be severely punished for it
2. Economy needs to actually be a thing. The game is currently just a map painter
3. Defensive pacts could make a return. The exact mechanics of which really should be up to the paid proffessional devs to figure out, not us.
 
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The reason blobbing happens is related to the warfare system CK3 uses. Quite frankly it makes no sense at a large/imperial scale.

Point 1 being... Think of the Byzantine Empire in real life. The reason they kept losing territory was because when a war, or revolt, happened they couldn't just raise 100% of their army and stomp their opponent. That's... not how it works. They had local garrisons which were raised. This was expensive, and left their fortifications and troops in some areas under funded. Which meant a smaller opponent could take on the Byzantines and win.

You wont see this in CK3. It's way too easy to just raise your entire army and levies. Despite the fact that it may take months or years for certain far away areas to even get the message to respond and start raising troops. Plus... the insane expense of it all.

Point 2? What happens when you win/lose a war? You recover your troop numbers really, really fast. Theres no population system is this good? Is this bad? I don't know I can't say much. What I can say is that being able to have what is in essence an eternal war with casualties 10x the population of my territories is a bit silly. Getting everyone killed doesn't even effect development. There are no long or even short term costs to winning or losing a war. Despite the fact that there should be.

Sometimes you wouldn't join a war because its so damn expensive and just not worth it. This is never the case in CK3. Might just be annoying at worst.

In turn, These two issues mean that more wars = more territories = more armies = more territories et cetera. Sure this is accurate to how things were in real life. But it is way too simplified and results in out of control blobbing and really boring end game play. It's like simplifying a car to more speed = more distance thus more speed means more distance without taking into account the fuel cost. Sure this is fine for some games but not the long term simulation CK3 is. That's where and why it breaks.

tl;dr
Way too easy to raise armies.
No Cost of war.
Combines into blobbing.
 
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I agree with much of what has been said here already, but would just like to expand on factions by suggesting, as many others have in the past, that they should themselves be expanded. A system similar to what was in CK2+ or HIP would be an ideal baseline in my mind, with cultural, religious, economic, hawkish/pacifist, etc. factions becoming permanent fixtures, and with unique/temporary factions that can rise and fall focused on specific characters (for example, a faction that arises around a well-liked member of the ruling dynasty or around a particularly powerful vassal).

In this system, traits, hooks, and bribery would push characters into different factions, each of which having its own set of likes/dislikes/ambitions, that will side with a ruler who acts in accordance with their desires, and side against one who doesn't. Faction leaders would run factions in a similar fashion to dynasty heads, being able to make deals with their ruler on behalf of their faction (e.g. we will support your proposed change to a law in return for changing this law, or arresting this rival character, or promising to declare war on this persons/religions/factions behalf, etc.), committing members to new 'pacts' (a pact of inviolability for example, which would see all members of faction declare on the ruler if any one member is arrested by the ruler without cause), and even allying with/blackmailing other faction leaders.

Such a system will mean that rulers will nearly always be at odds with one faction or another, that creating complete harmony in the realm is something quite difficult to accomplish and impossible to maintain. It will also scale well with the size of realms; the rulers of duchies and small kingdoms will have an easier time managing these factions given that their few vassals can be more easily convinced into remaining staunch loyalists, whereas as a realm becomes larger, spanning multiple cultures and even religions with many vassals and sub-vassals joining factions, characters will have to choose which factions to align themselves with, a choice influenced by a characters own traits (a cruel, wrothful ruler will not want to align himself or make concessions to isolationist/pacifist factions; a cynical ruler would not want to support a religious faction, and so on) with correlating results in stress. I think such a system would have a lot of potential for interesting event chains too, even if I'm personally not a big fan of the emphasis on such events in CK3. In combination with nerfs to character stat bloat across the board and dread reduction, large realms will be much more unstable when a ruler isn't a fantastic diplomat or a master of intrigue.

I also think there should be systems in place to make ruling distant territories and vassals more costly and difficult, but I am not sure what would work best here (perhaps a scaling decrease in revenues, and an increase in time to contact, which can be reduced by building roads or other infrastructure?). As has been mentioned previously, war should be made more expensive to wage, and this would work best in combination with a more sophisticated economy, with war serving to disrupt trade, angering nobles and city-dwellers, or to reduce seasonal/yearly yields from harvests and taxes, leading to food shortages, particularly following large losses of troops. The time needed to replenish armies should also be increased, a time which can be decreased by more stringent laws or successive requests for troops from vassals, with consequences ensuing in terms of public and vassal opinion. Otherwise, I think the training wheels need to come off in terms of providing the player protection from multiple assassination plots, from knighthood and battlefield deaths, and so on. CK2 wasn't really any more difficult than CK3, there was just a greater degree of RNG and less shields for the player from random deaths, but those random deaths (from disease, duels, assassination, accidents in society and lifestyle events, and so on) were what created the chaos that kept the realm churning.
 
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The best way not stop blobbing is role playing each head of the family you play . I wrote this a a response to another post but I think I'll put it here to.

This game is only easy and boring if you don't role play. Role play the heads of family based on their traits. My last playthrough one head of family did nothing but have feats and chase men for sex and never once went to war even tho their was lots of easy wars for him to win as based on this traits that who he was. It was very fun playing that head of the family. His son when he became head of the family was a religious nut job also not interested in fighting any wars (again lots of easy wars for him to win) he instead he spent all his life hunting down heretics in his country and burning them alive. The country was all most turn apart by him being a religious nut job. He was fun to play as well. The next in line thought fighting easy wars was beneath him and only would fight wars that were hard as he thought that would get him more fame. He died on the battlefield fighting an army he was never going to beat. His next in line was not interested in fighting was but making his cites the best in the world. I like to think he was assassinated for liking art over war by the lords of the country. Role play and you will get a million times more fun and a much harder challenge from his game and see why this game is very unique.

The only way to for the stopping the computer played family's from blobbing is to use the console. Sucks if you play iron man.
 
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The best way not stop blobbing is role playing each head of the family you play . I wrote this a a response to another post but I think I'll put it here to.

This is true for the player and for current CK3, yes. But the OP isn't asking for suggestions on how to not blob in-game right now, but for ideas and mechanics Paradox could implement to combat blobbing in future patches/DLC.
 
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I do think that the changes to factions have helped a bit, but they've come with other problems (e.g. they make even non-blob realms collapse, the AI is constantly overwhelmed, etc.). I think one of the downsides to using factions and partition to combat blobbing is that, as the game stands now, the resulting realms are very fragile. Adding starting MAA has helped a bit, but not that much. Faction realms in particular are often small and disconnected. These realms either spend the rest of the game failing to forge a new power, or are immediately gobbled up by powerful neighbors like the Byzantines and their hungry, hungry vassals. I think a bit more polish on the faction system, to find the goldilocks zone for faction strength, and some more work on initializing new realms (making sure they are coherent, etc.) could solve some of these issues.

I think other big issue is how easy expansion is. Even vassals of the Byzantines have no trouble gobbling up territory. I think in general there should be a bit more of a defensive advantage, making it so that you can't just conquer everyone who's 5% weaker than you. Similarly, the AI has a habit of getting itself into crushing debt and losing its army to attrition in far away lands. This leaves it defenseless. If the AI were a little less reckless, there would be fewer easy targets for hungry blobs. Finally, if there were more faction objectives that weakened (by decentralizing, etc.) but did not destroy their country, we could see blobs reach a sort of equilibrium point where they're big enough that they can't stand up to their vassals, and become a weak puppet king who can't expand anymore. Breaking up of blobs tends to be a very chaotic and unsatisfying process - new powers don't arise from the ashes, and you just have a pile of border gore for the rest of the game. So if big blobs are a bit more rare, and instead countries tend to reach a stable size and slow down, that might be a better experience.

All of these changes would have to be carefully balanced with player experience - you don't want to make it so hard to expand that a player can't make progress if they start as a weak realm.
 
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A lot of good ideas here, and definitely improvements to the faction system and vassal engagement would be great.

That said, I do think some sort of coalition/defensive pact system would be good. Ck2’s system wasn’t fun. But EU4 has a much better system that could be adapted. I think it could be good to tie the system loosely to character lifetime - a great conquerer may be worshipped internally, but will earn strong and numerous enemies outside their realm. On the flip side, a new ruler will have internal difficulties but won’t inherit all their predecessors’s enemies.

I think this type of balance allows the game to be harder. If a new ruler has to face the maximum external and internal threats, then the devs can’t make either too strong or players will get frustrated. Therefore rulers near the end of their reign have no danger at all, since difficulty has been balanced for a new ruler. But if you make the typical game arc “early reign - deal with internal threats, middle reign - conquer and deal with integrating conquests, late reign - deal with all the people who hate/fear you for conquering”, then each of these types of difficulty can be scaled up without making any one part of a reign too hard or too easy.

edit: another way of putting it: CK3 basically has a constant level of threats to the player. But the player’s ability to deal with those threats grows with 1) realm size 2) domain/MAA strength, 3) reign length, in a character’s life. So the game gets easier. A better faction system can compensate for 1 but does little about 2 or 3. A coalition system tied to character lifetime could deal with 3. 2 is still a problem, but at least it gets to a point fairly early where it more or less maxes out.
 
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EU4's coalition system is definitely better than CK2's. It allows the player to actually mitigate the problem somewhat: by having different levels of AE depending on distance and having it tie into the opinion system, you could rotate theaters while waiting for AE to burn off, you could actively placate neighbors to keep them above the threshold to join coalitions (which would actually make all those "random neighbor is annoyed with you" events actually relevant) and would more broadly give you options to manage it. CK2 had the problem that threat was universal (and scaled ridiculously with size) so that you quickly reached a "literally every war is a world war, and there's no alternative other than to sit around for decades while it slowly burned off."

That said, external coalition systems still have a few issues: they increase tedium for what can be small gains (giant CK wars aren't particularly interesting, especially since the current warfare AI really can't handle large armies or coalitions at all; witness the disaster that is AI crusading), they risk being devastating for small nations and trivial for large ones (it's very easy in EU4 for an HRE OPM to end up with an enormous coalition forming against it, while France or the Ottomans or whoever just eats its way through its neighbors), and more broadly, they can actually incentivize blobbing (as one solution to "giant coalition forms against me" is "crush the coalition, annex part of it, and next time it will be weaker and I will be stronger").

Factions of course have the issue that the AI is incapable of dealing with them. People hate to hear it, but the only way to make factions threatening without crippling AI realms is to give the AI artificial bonuses to mitigate them. This approach rubs a lot of people the wrong way ("the AI should play by the same rules as the player"), but the AI will always be stupider than the player (if we reach the point at which Paradox has developed a human-level AI for a game like CK3 that can run on a laptop you can buy at your local Best Buy, we'd have bigger issues to deal with). You either give the AI crude mechanical advantages to make up for it (for instance, making vassals or counties less likely to join factions against an AI liege) or you accept that any mechanics that can challenge a human player will leave an AI realm in shambles.
 
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What I hated about the CK2 system was it was too easy to reach 100% threat and then the whole world would band together.

I think it would have been better instead if your threat would make entire de jure kingdoms/empires join together to resist you but only defensively and for wars in that region.

Then you'd have a larger resistance if you threaten a balkanized kingdom but a unified kingdom would have fewer people to call on. Like a 'oust the scary guy from our backyard'.

In ck3 I think the armies are more on par with each other at each level. The real blob issues come from teleporting armies and no sense of distance. If armies were tied deeply to the location they're raised and had real tradeoffs for moving them around I think it would be more effective of containing blobs in CK3 than anything else.
 
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This is true for the player and for current CK3, yes. But the OP isn't asking for suggestions on how to not blob in-game right now, but for ideas and mechanics Paradox could implement to combat blobbing in future patches/DLC.
Although, after reading some of the amazing answers you guys have provided, an even better question would have been:

How could paradox make blobbing harder, but also help minor powers grow to have real, external threats on the board.

Cause in contrast to the byzantine empire and player empires which tend to blob (if you don't actively work against it by keeping crown authority high so your vassals don't expand for you), neighbouring realms tend to stay small & irrelevant.
And "special" external threats like the Mongol Horde/Sunset Invasion(CK2) are not really...... something i like. I also never was a fan of the endgame- crisis of stellaris. So it's probably just not my cup of tea if you chuck a pre-determined enemy with loads of event-troops at my face. (Interesting once, but if it's the only thing that could come close to be threatening in 70+ playthroughs..)
 
One idea I've had that could tie into the incoming culture rework is to make certain regions with inhospitable terrain hard to rule if your culture isn't adapted to that land - for example, a French king might have trouble controlling overseas subjects, but a Nose conqueror might rule a thassalocracy without an issue, and a powerful king might unite the Ganges region but still struggle to cross over to Tibet and maintain control. These challenges would be more than just reduced income and levies, such regions would be often rebellious, in effect sapping wealth from the ruler and easily breaking off (compared to other titles). With the culture rework, the ability to rule such territories effectively could be tied to traditions, with characters ruling incompatible regions likely to create a new culture there that is adapted to living there. The AI would, of course, have to be told to avoid expanding into too hostile regions if it can avoid it, but not completely block it.

How does this factor into stopping blobbing? Well, it should rein in some of the more nonsensical blobbing you see with the Byzzies, for instance. It wouldn't make ruling over such territories impossible, but it would make it costly to a point where you're better off without them unless you have a very good reason to hold on to them (such as access to another region that you have interest in).
 
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In ck3 I think the armies are more on par with each other at each level. The real blob issues come from teleporting armies and no sense of distance. If armies were tied deeply to the location they're raised and had real tradeoffs for moving them around I think it would be more effective of containing blobs in CK3 than anything else.
+1
 
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Factions need to have teeth.

Then we can get rid of the 867 start date...
Sorry, but the AI is especially there not really cappable of holding together a realm bigger then a single duchy. As how "dumb" the AI is, the 867 start date would just crumble into single counties all over the map.
Is that really what we want?

Also, compare the 867 start date with the 1066 start date:
Francia and HRE only formed in the latter. So to have a somewhat historical path, the AI would need the ability to be able to form at least such empires... which it can't!
The AI is far, really far from being able to even form the empire of Francia in 867 - the AI forming the Holy Roman Empire will like never ever happen in the current state.

If you make factions even stronger, the player will still blob - because no outside threat is left, literally.
 
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Threat and coalitions are not the way, Focus on internal threats, bigger vassals, cultural difference and need to reaffirm cooptation, the borders should require constant reaffirmations of the central authority to avoid the risk of having them so far from the center of imperial power that they are essentially independant at this point, The hardest part shouldn't be about the building an empire/blobing, the hardest part should be to hold on to said empire for more than a generation, It should require different methods, be those bureaucratic imperialism, effective army dictatorship, large feudal state, whaterver those maybe. Even strong and powerfull empires should see decadence and risks which evolve from generation to generation, from coup to coup. This core aspect of the game should not be dealt with an EU4 like modifier but mechanics and story telling, please don't impose modifiers when mechanics could be implemented.
 
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I do think that the changes to factions have helped a bit, but they've come with other problems (e.g. they make even non-blob realms collapse, the AI is constantly overwhelmed, etc.). I think one of the downsides to using factions and partition to combat blobbing is that, as the game stands now, the resulting realms are very fragile. Adding starting MAA has helped a bit, but not that much. Faction realms in particular are often small and disconnected. These realms either spend the rest of the game failing to forge a new power, or are immediately gobbled up by powerful neighbors like the Byzantines and their hungry, hungry vassals. I think a bit more polish on the faction system, to find the goldilocks zone for faction strength, and some more work on initializing new realms (making sure they are coherent, etc.) could solve some of these issues.
I think this one has only partition to blame - AI can't handle it and ends up with a single county after a couple of generations, of course everyone rebels against these losers.

Meanwhile Byzantines gobble everything like there is no tomorrow.
 
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