VIP - Southeast Asia

[Jayavarman]

V.I.P. Southeast Asia

Okie, much was not accomplished in Southeast Asia that I wish could have been done due to miscommunications. Oh well, that is what VIP will correct.

First things on the agenda:

Events:
- Siam events; I had started event descriptions for Siam. Many events are possible.
- Cambodian events; such events could handle revolt from Annam and the whole triangle between it, France, and Siam
- Annam events; there is plenty Annamese history to make into events

Scenario Setup:
- New country of Champassak should be made out of current Luang Prabang's southern and second province; Champassak was vassal of Luang Prabang

These are first things off top of my head...

 

[unmerged(15764)]

how about some more advanced british hong kong events? im in love with hong kong...

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by azid
how about some more advanced british hong kong events? im in love with hong kong...

Hey man! That belongs in V.I.P. East Asia!

 

[unmerged(15764)]

isnt hong kong in south east asia?

 

[unmerged(5110)]

Originally posted by azid
isnt hong kong in south east asia?

Technically and geographically its in the far east.

 

[unmerged(6766)]

We need some migration events... Chinese to Southeast Asia... also Hmong and Mien during the middle of the 19th century while the Muslim rebellion is going on in China.

Are there event commands to direct those actions?

Let's see... what other events ! I will so help out with this once I get the game.

 

[Jayavarman]

Dayvit781, can you find information about Chinese and Hmong populations in Southeast Asia during the Victoria time period?

 

[unmerged(6766)]

I have a book called "Sojourners and Settlers: Histories of Southeast Asia and the Chinese" edited by Anthony Reid. It has alot of information, and I'm sure I can find information elsewhere too. I'm just not sure how it can be put into events.

The fact is there should be Chinese POPs in Southeast Asia at the start 1836, both in the cities as merchants (esp Philippines, Vietnam, Siam and Indonesia) and in the countryside as miners - gold miners and tin miners in Malaysia. It would depend if the map has those resources available so Chinese could work at them.

It's important that the Chinese come from coastal provinces in the South of China to about as north as Shanghai, but none from farther North should emigrate.

As far as Hmong, I just saw a screenshot that lists Miao (i think they are the same)... and what we want for them is a migration southwards into the highlands of Northern Vietnam and Laos in the mid19th century.

If there are any professors on the boards who studied this, I'm sure their Universities will have plenty of resources, otherwise I'll have to visit my former University

Lastly, I just want to say a quote that I read somewhere about the French in Vietnam......... they said for every Frenchman who becomes a millionaire in Vietnam, there are 10 Vietnamese millionaires and 100 Chinese millionaires.

 

[Jayavarman]

I am unsure if POP migrations can be simulated through events commands. I have to find my command list someday... However, we can still put in POPs for the beginning of the scenarios.
Dayvit781, go to your university and find those population figures!

 

[unmerged(6766)]

Ok.. Chinese "coolie" migration began in a big way in the 1860's as a result of contracts and credit-ticket basis. "The vast majority who went to SEA as laborers in the years between 1860 and 1930 did not intend to stay.

So we can have an event, where the colonial power issues contracts, say for 50,000 Chinese to come to province X and work for Y number of years. After which they will return to China, keeping whatever money they made while working. (And of course, you will have made taxes and produce off of them).

Chinese in Southeast Asia: Population Esitimates 1800-1930 (in thousands)
Country - early 1800 ; 1860 ; 1900 ; 1930

Thailand - 203 (in 1825) ; 337 ; 608 ; 648
Malaya/Sarawak+NBorneo - 14 ; <100 ; 532 ; 1700
Singapore - 0 ; 50 ; 165 ; 422
Indonesia Java- 100 ; 149 ; 277 ; 582
Indo Other Islands-85 ; 73 ; 260 ; 651
Philippines- 120 Mestizo/7 Chinese ; 290 Mestizo/23Chinese ; 41; 110
Vietnam- X ; X; 80 ; 200
Cambodia X ; X; 40 ; 100
Laos X; X; X; 3
Burma- X; X; X; 193

So as you can see, there should be

 

[unmerged(6766)]

By the way, are we going to have tribute missions? Siam and Vietnam both had significant #s of tribute missions to China up until 1850 when they stopped.....
Automatically sending goods and $$$ ? In exchange for prestige (as legitimately recognized gov't by China).

 

[Jayavarman]

Cool. I'll look these over and maybe, they might be in next patch!

 

[unmerged(6766)]

Philippines should have at least 4 types of POPs.... Filipinas, Spanish, Mestizos (mixed) and Chinos (pure Chinese).

Mestizos should be about 5% of the total pop (In 1877 there were 290,000 and that was 5.2% of total Philippines population). They should also be wealthy having control of nearly all trade, land investments and industrial sectors. So they should be categorized as capitalists while the ethnic Spanish should be aristocrats and clergy. The Filipinas will make up everything else. I don't think Chinos would be a large enough segment, but they were all merchants in the city, Manila.

 

[unmerged(6766)]

And this is from Martin Stuart-Fox History of Laos....

As early as 1830's, Hmong (Miao) and Mien (Yao) began migrating... but I don't have numbers...
I would create a very small number of farmer Miao in the Plain of Jars area.


By the way, I'm having a hard time with how they named the Southeast Asia provinces... I don't know many of those city names...? Where is Angkor or Siam Riep! !

 

[unmerged(6766)]

Sorry to post so much.... but are we going to divide this up so that one person will take one country? There are numerous revolt events that can be scripted for each country if the conditions are right.....
(I thought of this just posting at a Bali thread)...
we need revolts so that the Netherlands can't just take them over in one year... and have peace for the next 80 years..... that wouldn't be historical.....

And what about a Krakatoa event =) The blast heard 'round the world?

 

[Jayavarman]

Sorry to post so much.... but are we going to divide this up so that one person will take one country? There are numerous revolt events that can be scripted for each country if the conditions are right.....
And what about a Krakatoa event =) The blast heard 'round the world?

Which countries do you want? My own priorities are Cambodia, Siam, and Annam.
IIRC, there is already a Krakatoa event.

By the way, are we going to have tribute missions? Siam and Vietnam both had significant #s of tribute missions to China up until 1850 when they stopped.....

It is impossible to automatically give tribute to another country. Also, why would it increase prestige for the countries that are giving tribute, as they are the ones bending down. Anyways, I suppose an event could be scripted pertaining this.

By the way, I'm having a hard time with how they named the Southeast Asia provinces... I don't know many of those city names...? Where is Angkor or Siam Riep! !

Yeah, to tell you the truth, I was sort of puzzled by how they named the provinces. I was not involved with the naming.

 

[aprof]

Not sure if this should be here or the Far east thread. (This is a repost of an event suggested in the Iberia thread as it relates to a Spanish colony.)


Event: Grito de Balintawak
Text: Andrès Bonifacio issues a call to arms of all Filipinos against the colonial administration.
Conditions: 26-08-1896; [Philippines does not exist]
Effects: militancy of laborers/farmers in Phillipines +5

[reference to Phillippines does not exist assumes that a Phillipines TAG is made.]

It is possible that Spain will have already lost/sold this colony, so a revolt against the 'new' owner should be just as likely.

 

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Dayvit781
Philippines should have at least 4 types of POPs.... Filipinas, Spanish, Mestizos (mixed) and Chinos (pure Chinese).

Mestizos should be about 5% of the total pop (In 1877 there were 290,000 and that was 5.2% of total Philippines population). They should also be wealthy having control of nearly all trade, land investments and industrial sectors. So they should be categorized as capitalists while the ethnic Spanish should be aristocrats and clergy. The Filipinas will make up everything else. I don't think Chinos would be a large enough segment, but they were all merchants in the city, Manila.

Philippines should have 5 ethnic groups:

Filipinos, Spanish, Mestizos, Chinese and Malay (Mindanao Island).

Although the Filipino are also Malay, they and the Mindanao Malays are not exactly the same kind of Malay.

How are they reflected in the game, by the way?

 

[unmerged(6766)]

Originally posted by PMLF
Philippines should have 5 ethnic groups:

Filipinos, Spanish, Mestizos, Chinese and Malay (Mindanao Island).

Although the Filipino are also Malay, they and the Mindanao Malays are not exactly the same kind of Malay.

How are they reflected in the game, by the way?

That's a good thought. You mean the Muslim inhabitants right? And of course, there will be settlers from the north who will keep Filipina ethnicity.

Also, I doubt they're in .. but if there are any Cham left in Vietnam, they should be Muslim too

Re: Tribute missions.... I just thought it would be easy to make an event... Annam can offer less than historical, historical, or more than historical, or end it (In the same way HOI has Sweden and Germany trade). I was thinking what Annam would gain is less revolt risk at hime as having China recognize the Vietnamese emperor would make him legitimate (in the same way the Pope could legitimize a western european king).... this was historical too, once a new king ascended he would send tributes to China so that he could be recognized. ... other effect....Im not sure...

I don't really know how the events are yet, so just brainstorming. and DREAMING about Victoria eheheh

 

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Dayvit781
That's a good thought. You mean the Muslim inhabitants right? And of course, there will be settlers from the north who will keep Filipina ethnicity.

Also, I doubt they're in .. but if there are any Cham left in Vietnam, they should be Muslim too

Re: Tribute missions.... I just thought it would be easy to make an event... Annam can offer less than historical, historical, or more than historical, or end it (In the same way HOI has Sweden and Germany trade). I was thinking what Annam would gain is less revolt risk at hime as having China recognize the Vietnamese emperor would make him legitimate (in the same way the Pope could legitimize a western european king).... this was historical too, once a new king ascended he would send tributes to China so that he could be recognized. ... other effect....Im not sure...

I don't really know how the events are yet, so just brainstorming. and DREAMING about Victoria eheheh

Yep, the Muslim inhabitants. The language and the culture of the Christian ones are already too influentied by the Spanish culture while the Muslim one isn't. Another name for the Mindanao people is Moro (Moor), but I don't know if they use this name or if this is the name is only used by the Christians to refer to them.