UnM: Occitania

[ForzaA]

Ok, so Languedoc performed well, and became Occitania...

unfortunately, this led to a few ID conflicts, and a warning that a leader had a non-existant date command (fenruary, IIRC)

Furthermore, the Occitania event file has a couple of {AI = no} events that should be { AI = yes } since all they do is changing an AI file....

 

[MattyG]

This should have been in the bug thread, but thanks hugely for this work. Can you tell I have no time to actually play this mod?

I get the changes into 6.02 (next monday).

 

[ForzaA]

yeah well, to be honest, I think every country just needs it's own thread too... BUG thread seems way too chaotic to me

 

[MattyG]

yeah well, to be honest, I think every country just needs it's own thread too... BUG thread seems way too chaotic to me

So, do you have some comments on Occitania? How was the feel of it?

 

[ForzaA]

So, do you have some comments on Occitania? How was the feel of it?

I was playing the Caliphate


..However, I did notice them "ping-pong"ing between catholic and protestant.. it seems their original conversion doesn't give them enough protestant provinces to stay protestant..

 

[MattyG]

I was playing the Caliphate


..However, I did notice them "ping-pong"ing between catholic and protestant.. it seems their original conversion doesn't give them enough protestant provinces to stay protestant..

Cool, I will alter that by one province. It's always hard to know how big a country will go. I also didn't know that a country will change religion like that. Do you know much about the preconditions for state religion change when not triggered by an event?

 

[ForzaA]

Cool, I will alter that by one province. It's always hard to know how big a country will go. I also didn't know that a country will change religion like that. Do you know much about the preconditions for state religion change when not triggered by an event?

Usually, a country will change religion to the religion that has the highest total base tax, or something related to that anyway..
so if it has 2 dirt poor Catholic, and one filthy rich protestant, it'll go protestant.

Personally, I think there should be a little more province based (And state-religion triggered) conversion events... As you say, you never know how big state X is when it gets it's conversion event.
just make sure they don't convert back to catholic before the provinces have a chance to convert

An idea to avoid that would be for example

event 1: "let's go protestant" , sets a flag "protestant"
province events trigger off that flag and have the provinces convert...
about a year later, event 2, converting the country to protestant, happens.

 

[MattyG]

Usually, a country will change religion to the religion that has the highest total base tax, or something related to that anyway..
so if it has 2 dirt poor Catholic, and one filthy rich protestant, it'll go protestant.

Personally, I think there should be a little more province based (And state-religion triggered) conversion events... As you say, you never know how big state X is when it gets it's conversion event.
just make sure they don't convert back to catholic before the provinces have a chance to convert

An idea to avoid that would be for example

event 1: "let's go protestant" , sets a flag "protestant"
province events trigger off that flag and have the provinces convert...
about a year later, event 2, converting the country to protestant, happens.

It IS a little disappointing that that is how it works, because then you can't have a situation where the state religion is the minority, right? Hmmmmm. Then how does the Mughal Empire work, with the leadership Muslim but the provinces Hindu? Or is the system you describe above only about Catholic/Protestant/Reformed?

Nonetheless, I will have a good look at the occitan reformation, as well as those for some of the other Gallic nations.

And your trigger system is elegant.

Then again, a little unexpected variety is very very much the style of this mod ...

 

[unmerged(36826)]

You cannot convert from Sunni to anything else, so that is why Mughal India stays sunni

 

[ForzaA]

Then again, a little unexpected variety is very very much the style of this mod ...

Well, as with the Brittanian events to convert back to catholicism, all it does is screw the AI -- the back and forth converting, that is.

Human players know converting is generally VERY bad, and when they've made a choice of religion, they'll usually stick to it.. the AI doesn't however, and thus loses precious stab on converting, and precious money on converting provinces back and forth.



As to the "system", the AI looks only at the religions it CAN convert to (so it's mostly about catholic-protestant-reformed)

 

[MattyG]

Well, as with the Brittanian events to convert back to catholicism, all it does is screw the AI -- the back and forth converting, that is.

Human players know converting is generally VERY bad, and when they've made a choice of religion, they'll usually stick to it.. the AI doesn't however, and thus loses precious stab on converting, and precious money on converting provinces back and forth.



As to the "system", the AI looks only at the religions it CAN convert to (so it's mostly about catholic-protestant-reformed)

Good analysis. Perhaps the solution, then, is two have two events for countries that have a choice of religion. One for the player, wherein adopting Protestantism converts a handful of locations (the 'real' version of the event), and another one for the AI that is more stable, converting most of the country.

Unless, of course, a period of instability is the intention. Every nation deserves two or three rough rides over the course of 400 years of history.

 

[orimazd]

I have an Occitanian history-related question. How did the crusade against the Cathars turn out in Interregnated history? This post will be a little messy.

From Wikipedia, this was the cause of the Albigensian Crusade:

The Papal legate Pierre de Castelnau, known for excommunicating the noblemen who protected the Cathars, excommunicated Raymond VI, count of Toulouse as an abettor of heresy in 1207. Pierre was then murdered near Saint Gilles Abbey in 1208 on his way back to Rome, probably at the connivance of Raymond. As soon as he heard of the murder, the Pope ordered his legates to preach a Crusade against the Cathars.

This war threw the whole of the nobility of the north of France against that of the south, possibly instigated by a papal decree stating that all land owned by Cathars could be confiscated at will. As the area was full of Cathar sympathisers, this made the entire area a target for northern nobles looking to gain new lands. It is thus hardly surprising that the barons of the north flocked south to do battle for the Church.

I don't know what kind of authority the book Holy Blood Holy Grail had on how it described the cause of the Albigensian Crusade, but its version was a little different--that it was called by the king of France (the one who would have died at about the same time in the Holy Land), probably as a power grab. I'll reread that chapter in a few minutes after I finish this post, which might turn out to have too ambitious an idea for this late in the mod.

If the Holy Blood Holy Grail version is correct, the Albigensian Crusade would not have happened--at least, not as it does in our world (while the eventually stated premise of the book could be BS, I trust their historical research, though it was written 25 years ago). If the Wikipedia version is correct. what if de Castelnau had not been murdered? The Crusade would most definitely have been called eventually, of course (same no matter which history is true). However, also from HBHG, it was stated that the Cathar heresy was starting to gain ground in Germany just before the crusade against it(the Languedoc region was rather prosperous at the time due to the innovative qualities of the heresy common to the region, and it was much more populous at the time than it was in 1419--the crusaders tore the region up and massacred a rather large percentage of the inhabitants). The Byzantine armies, as written in the grand history thread, slaughter the armies from the 4th crusade and leave France kingless; this could have weakened the kindgom enough that it could not do the crusade.

If the Cathar heresy somehow survives to the beginning of the Interregnum game, the protestant reformation would have to be changed--I've seen the date for the protestant reformation changed in other mods, and it can be disabled with the scenario editor, IIRC. The beginning of the major religious turmoil would have most likely taken place 300 years before its starting time in our world (ie, the 1250s), and interregnum could either begin just at the end of the wars of religion or have them flare up at the start (alternatively, it could be split in two, the second half having been delayed to starting around 1419 because of the aftermath of the Black Death in the 1300s, with at most only local religious violence as kings shut themselves in their castles to avoid catching the plague).

Could this somehow be connected with the Hussites in Bohemia? With the addition in this game of the states allied with Bohemia in place of Poland (Greater Silesia and Volhynia-Dysifyniwhatever) being added to the game...imagine the possibilities. If half of Bavaria is Cathar and the other half is Catholic, they would certainly have a tougher time fighting a war against the Hussites, thus possibly making it a surviving faith taking the place of reform? IIRC, John Wyclife comes after Jan Hus, and he could have some influence in the British isles with the Hussite version of Christianity.

I hope this helps

 

[MattyG]

Remember that in Interregnum none of that Aberration history of France remains. There was no fourth crusade and the King of France did not die on it. France collapses in 1370 - 90 during a series of succession wars and is basically kept apart by a peace agreed to by Savoy and Brittany. That is, until Phillipe comes to the throne in Burgundy and may decide to rekindle the war. Or not.

The Interregnum history of the Albigensian crusade is not to different from the Real World, because the reformation we have here is essentially the same: it begins some time after 1510 with Luther and etc etc and Luther is essentially predicated on all the preceeding protestant movements having been crushed. We do in Interregnum have an alternative version that mikl and bobtdwarf are working on, which would see reform come from within the catholic church, but it is still in development.

The key difference with our history of the Albigensian Crusade is that it more or less ended after the sack of Beziers. The Trencavel's concede to the pope and in exchange for retaining lands and titles agree to supress the cathars themselves. This they do with the aid of a viscious papal legate. So, catharism dwindles and dies but Occitan culture remains the dominant one in the south of Gaul, rather than the shift in power toward French nobility during this time.

It also means that cathar sympathies remain and when the reformation comes, many of the provinces turn protestant and reformed and there are revolts when the region is not Languedoc or Occitania owned.

Maybe not the most airtight alternative history, but we can always work on it.

Matty

 

[unmerged(33577)]

This can be a source of event sequence :

I already have a journey in old Cathar's Land as some of my friends and if you speak with some locals they says :

- Cathars wasn't crush by the crusade. They hide themself for decade and still live and practice their faith. (As say in the "Les chevalier Cathare" a song (in french) by Francis Cabrel) :

Les chevaliers Cathares
Y pensent encore
N'en déplaise à ceux qui décident
Du passé et du présent
Ils n'ont que sept siècles d'histoire
Ils sont toujours vivants

The Cathares knights
Still think about it
With due respect of those which decide
past and present
They have only seven centuries of history
They are still alive

If the crusade occur, we can also aberrate the history with a set of events influancing the politics and religion in the region but maybe mostly "flavor event"

 

[orimazd]

Remember that in Interregnum none of that Aberration history of France remains. There was no fourth crusade and the King of France did not die on it. France collapses in 1370 - 90 during a series of succession wars and is basically kept apart by a peace agreed to by Savoy and Brittany. That is, until Phillipe comes to the throne in Burgundy and may decide to rekindle the war. Or not.

I forgot which crusade didn't happen, and when I tried to look it up the first one I saw mentioned was the 4th, where the Byzantines slaughtered the "Franks." Also, the 4th Crusade came just barely before the albigensian one, so it wasn't conflicting.

The Interregnum history of the Albigensian crusade is not to different from the Real World, because the reformation we have here is essentially the same: it begins some time after 1510 with Luther and etc etc and Luther is essentially predicated on all the preceeding protestant movements having been crushed. We do in Interregnum have an alternative version that mikl and bobtdwarf are working on, which would see reform come from within the catholic church, but it is still in development.

Is there a thread on it yet?

The key difference with our history of the Albigensian Crusade is that it more or less ended after the sack of Beziers. The Trencavel's concede to the pope and in exchange for retaining lands and titles agree to supress the cathars themselves. This they do with the aid of a viscious papal legate. So, catharism dwindles and dies but Occitan culture remains the dominant one in the south of Gaul, rather than the shift in power toward French nobility during this time.

It also means that cathar sympathies remain and when the reformation comes, many of the provinces turn protestant and reformed and there are revolts when the region is not Languedoc or Occitania owned.

Maybe not the most airtight alternative history, but we can always work on it.

Matty[/QUOTE]

Also (well, there is no also), Lyonnais is a little awkward in its being the only french province in its area. To the north you have Burgundy, where the provinces bordering Lyonnais eventually turns to Burgundian culture, and to the west and south its occitan. Wikipedia tells me that it should be an Occitan territory ("Rhône-Alpes — While the south of the region is clearly Occitan-speaking, the northern Lyonnais, Forez and Dauphiné parts, which were the intermediate zones between Occitan and Franco-Provençal, have become French-speaking.") To continue on this language bit, however, there was no defining "French Language" by the point that France split up and a lingua franca was no longer necessary ("For the period up to around 1300, some linguists refer to the oïl languages collectively as Old French"). Its too late for me to suggest anything out of what I just posted (4:30 AM).

 

[MattyG]

For Lyonnais it is a bit awkward. It will be easier when we have more provinces in EU3.

But I thought it reasonable that the Albigensian Crusade effected at least a part of the country and caused a 'culture' change when lands were granted to French nobles etc etc.

And while Burgundy etc can become Burgundian culture, that doesn't mean a province couldn't be realistically 'isolated' as a culture group. Plus, Burgumdian culture is not a language thing, its a culture thing, with the development of a distinct set of 'national' characters based on its strong rule of codified law and relatively high status of the peasants in that region, when the right choices are made.

It's all very messy at best anyway, as there is no French language at this time. Plus, here in Interregnum, culture is not definied as language, or not solely as language. There is a fairly recent thread on how culture is definied, you might want to check it out.

 

[MattyG]

This can be a source of event sequence :

I already have a journey in old Cathar's Land as some of my friends and if you speak with some locals they says :

- Cathars wasn't crush by the crusade. They hide themself for decade and still live and practice their faith. (As say in the "Les chevalier Cathare" a song (in french) by Francis Cabrel) :





If the crusade occur, we can also aberrate the history with a set of events influancing the politics and religion in the region but maybe mostly "flavor event"

Crio,

Perhaps you could review the Savoy, Languedoc and Occitania files as well as the province_religion file and look at all the events innthe reformation period that relate to Occitan provinces turning protestant or reformed. I do have flavour references to Catharism. But maybe more could be done with it. I'd be very happy to see more and better text.

MattyG

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Ive been reading a book a while back called 'Montepillar' - very fascinating really about the Cathars. They had so much departed from Church dogma one would think they are Zorastrians or Naqshibandi Muslims

 

[Dairpo]

I'm playing as Savoy and have, through diploannexation and war, taken control of all the Occitan (not to mention Iberian, French, and Northern Italian) provinces. While I am sure this is not unusual around 1570ish I noticed that I could release two different Occitania's plus the Occitanian Protectorate as vassals. Just a head's up.

 

[MattyG]

I'm playing as Savoy and have, through diploannexation and war, taken control of all the Occitan (not to mention Iberian, French, and Northern Italian) provinces. While I am sure this is not unusual around 1570ish I noticed that I could release two different Occitania's plus the Occitanian Protectorate as vassals. Just a head's up.

Yeah, the problem is with the game structure. In order to have a country come in to being via the command 'independence = ' it has to exist in the revolt.txt file. Meaning it can also be something that can be released via the make vassal action. There are only two ways I know of to limit this. The first is that one can include the qualifier 'no = revolt' meaning it can't appear through revolt. And the second is 'no = MES', say, meaning that it cannot be released as a vassal if MES is in existence.

So, I added 'no = MES' to the protectorate and 'no = FPR' to Occitania. This will mean that, should you release one of them you could not then release the other two. But that's it, unfortunately.

The third Occitania is an error. I will remove it from the revolter file. Thanks a lot!!!