This doesn't add up for China

[eagletrekkie]

Their country of origin is irrelevant to this discussion.

Would it be nice to have a better projection map for the game? Sure. Is that likely for ck3? No. They’d basically have to make ck4 anyway to change the map to the extent required is my guess. The decision to keep the projection from ck2, which inherited it from ck1 was a choice that was made and I do wonder why if they at least thought that they would expand later.

The choice was made nonetheless for I’m sure a variety of reasons, most of which are likely more to do with the fact that most of their players tend to want to play in Europe, and thus it makes sense to invest more time and effort into Europe.

That being said, there may be some further refinement before launch as we’ve already seen.

 

[Yizhexia]

Came to the US from where?

It’s not hard to approximate. This is irrelevant to the discussion. I gave you the benefit of the doubt; you WIN at last.

As one of the few fellow CK3 members in this community, I wish you all the best in your future online journey and hope you take this one concept to heart when engaging in online discussions:

Ad hominem fallacy.

 

[Lohcoh]

It’s not hard to approximate. This is irrelevant to the discussion. I gave you the benefit of the doubt; you WIN at last.

As one of the few fellow CK3 members in this community, I wish you all the best in your future online journey and hope you take this one concept to heart when engaging in online discussions:

Ad hominem fallacy.

I have seen this guy many times in such occasions. This guy, even if someone tells jokes related to China, will express doubts and continue to question, questioning and questioning again. Moreover, he once questioned the examination items open to foreigners in the Chinese imperial examination, and even the links to his wiki he refused to accept.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...l-examination-in-china.1772272/#post-30444999

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I have seen this guy many times in such occasions. This guy, even if someone tells jokes related to China, will express doubts and continue to question, questioning and questioning again. Moreover, he once questioned the examination items open to foreigners in the Chinese imperial examination, and even the links to his wiki he refused to accept.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...l-examination-in-china.1772272/#post-30444999

Because the natural position of many people is to question, if you speak broken english, and google gives no results besides your post, then its a bit hard to accept something as fact.

Additionally if you try to claim that the exams, with all their expense, also included easy passes for foreigners, as a way to show how China was so tolerant and diverse and super special awesome (in contrast to much of the contemporary world) people will doubt it.

 

[Apocal]

Because the natural position of many people is to question, if you speak broken english, and google gives no results besides your post, then its a bit hard to accept something as fact.

The question isn't why you're suspicious. The question is why you think it is even remotely relevant to the issues raised in this thread?

 

[DiabloDeVille]

The question isn't why you're suspicious. The question is why you think it is even remotely relevant to the issues raised in this thread?

If you make a post with weird grammar and size changes, then after minor disagreement, say that you should've made the posts anonymously (impossible to do on forums), you come across as ESL.

If people can know where you're from, they can help explain the cultural difference to you, thus making it a more constructive discussion for all. Early in ck3's history, many users kept posting about donkeys, much to the confusion of others, and then it turned out they were using software which was translating onager (the siege engine) as donkey, as thats what the etymology actually means.

 

[eagletrekkie]

If you make a post with weird grammar and size changes, then after minor disagreement, say that you should've made the posts anonymously (impossible to do on forums), you come across as ESL.

If people can know where you're from, they can help explain the cultural difference to you, thus making it a more constructive discussion for all. Early in ck3's history, many users kept posting about donkeys, much to the confusion of others, and then it turned out they were using software which was translating onager (the siege engine) as donkey, as thats what the etymology actually means.

Sure that may be relevant in other contexts, but in this conversation there is nothing that requires that you know where anyone else is from.

 

[Lohcoh]

Because the natural position of many people is to question, if you speak broken english, and google gives no results besides your post, then its a bit hard to accept something as fact.

Additionally if you try to claim that the exams, with all their expense, also included easy passes for foreigners, as a way to show how China was so tolerant and diverse and super special awesome (in contrast to much of the contemporary world) people will doubt it.

You seem to be very concerned about what translators others use. But please remember that non-native English speakers using translators are respecting the basic rules of this English speaking forum, and you cannot show distrust towards others just because they follow the rules. This is a very confusing behavior. I hope this is helpful to you

 

[ray243]

Sure that may be relevant in other contexts, but in this conversation there is nothing that requires that you know where anyone else is from.

Sometimes I detect there's a bit of a xenophobic outlook from some of the forum users, to be honest. When suddenly where the posters' origin is a big deal for some people, you really wonder if those people are engaging in good faith discussions.

 

[SAS]

Stay on topic please.

 

[ray243]

Stay on topic please.

Sadly, it seems like such topics on anything non-Europe often got derailed by the same few posters... It's becoming somewhat uncomfortable forum for anyone who don't identify stronger as 'western'.

 

[Yizhexia]

Stay on topic please.

100% agree.

Let’s not let this derail our discussion.

My viewpoint is incomplete—no one knows it all. I appreciate the correction to my original approach.

I welcome intellectually honest suggestions and viewpoints.

As with the great rice-paddies idea, there are certainly more ways to reach a fairer, historically accurate representation while preserving game balance.

 

[Lohcoh]

100% agree.

Let’s not let this derail our discussion.

My viewpoint is incomplete—no one knows it all. I appreciate the correction to my original approach.

I welcome intellectually honest suggestions and viewpoints.

As with the great rice-paddies idea, there are certainly more ways to reach a fairer, historically accurate representation while preserving game balance.

If you can read Chinese, please refer to this link as someone has evaluated based on historical maps.
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9959440443?pid=152514779261&cid=0#152514779261

it said： Paradox has created about 80% to 90% of ZHOU in history.
I don't think there's much problem overall, because at that time, ZHOU was really that big and there wasn't much room for improvement.
The important thing is Barony below ZHOU. The number of Barony can directly reflect the population size.
There are a large number of Barony below these ZHOU . In the Tang Dynasty, there were 1573 Barony out of 328 ZHOU, with an average of about 5 Barony per ZHOU.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

You seem to be very concerned about what translators others use. But please remember that non-native English speakers using translators are respecting the basic rules of this English speaking forum, and you cannot show distrust towards others just because they follow the rules. This is a very confusing behavior. I hope this is helpful to you

Yes they should be speaking english on the english forums I agree, but if the translator is more transliterating than translating, communication is impeded.
I'm not showing distrust towards others for following rules, someone is bringing up a month old discussion in which I doubted what they claimed due to the info being bold in claim and hard to verify.

 

[Lohcoh]

Yes they should be speaking english on the english forums I agree, but if the translator is more transliterating than translating, communication is impeded.
I'm not showing distrust towards others for following rules, someone is bringing up a month old discussion in which I doubted what they claimed due to the info being bold in claim and hard to verify.

Stay on topic please.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

100% agree.

Let’s not let this derail our discussion.

My viewpoint is incomplete—no one knows it all. I appreciate the correction to my original approach.

I welcome intellectually honest suggestions and viewpoints.

As with the great rice-paddies idea, there are certainly more ways to reach a fairer, historically accurate representation while preserving game balance.

How can your viewpoint be incomplete just because no one knows all of it? Your viewpoint is your viewpoint. If by viewpoint you mean argument, feel free to lay out more of it.

 

[Yizhexia]

If you can read Chinese, please refer to this link as someone has evaluated based on historical maps.
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9959440443?pid=152514779261&cid=0#152514779261
View attachment 1347861View attachment 1347859

it said： Paradox has created about 80% to 90% of ZHOU in history.
I don't think there's much problem overall, because at that time, ZHOU was really that big and there wasn't much room for improvement.
The important thing is Barony below ZHOU. The number of Barony can directly reflect the population size.
There are a large number of Barony below these ZHOU . In the Tang Dynasty, there were 1573 Barony out of 328 ZHOU, with an average of about 5 Barony per ZHOU.

Thanks for the info.


Zhou data:
For reference, I’m not familiar with the Zhou data.
If that’s the case, Paradox has done a fantastic job representing regional research—kudos to the Paradox devs!



On baronies:
I assumed a baronies distribution comparable to the HRE (or elsewhere).

If the barony distribution is comparable, then the issue isn’t resolved.

If baronies are more densely packed, that may justify my subjective 2.5–3× HRE comparison.

I hope that helps support the impression. To me, the impression is the key metric.



Remaining problem:
My concern with the fair historical representation of India and the Islamic world persists, given India’s sheer size and the Islamic Golden Age.

 

[Yizhexia]

How can your viewpoint be incomplete just because no one knows all of it? Your viewpoint is your viewpoint. If by viewpoint you mean argument, feel free to lay out more of it.

Please refer to my Edit 2 (8/16) on page 1. For clarity: other people’s viewpoints are just as valuable as mine. Feel free to discuss with others.

Please know that I will ignore bad-faith arguments.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Remaining problem:
My concern with the fair historical representation of India and the Islamic world persists, given India’s sheer size and the Islamic Golden Age.

In another thread it was said that certain popular forces (Crusaders, but I assume that might be the case with Byzantines as well) *must* be ahistorically strong, because otherwise their fans endlessly flood feedback with complaints about the game being too hard.

In order for India and Abbasid Caliphate to be stronger, you'd need a substantial growth in numbers of Indian and Iraqi players. This wouldn't result in any DLC about these regions (Poles are a substantial portion of Paradox playerbase yet a Slav DLC is nowhere to be seen for example), they'll just receive boosts so that new players don't complain.

 

[Yizhexia]

In another thread it was said that certain popular forces (Crusaders, but I assume that might be the case with Byzantines as well) *must* be ahistorically strong, because otherwise their fans endlessly flood feedback with complaints about the game being too hard.

In order for India and Abbasid Caliphate to be stronger, you'd need a substantial growth in numbers of Indian and Iraqi players. This wouldn't result in any DLC about these regions (Poles are a substantial portion of Paradox playerbase yet a Slav DLC is nowhere to be seen for example), they'll just receive boosts so that new players don't complain.

Yeah. Unfortunately, Paradox is a business. Paradox has to make money. I genuinely hope players value historical accuracy more.