The Knights opening

[Shreddinger]

So, I really wanted to play the Knights since they can form Jerusalem and as I always do, I watched some videos on how to turn this 1 province piece of garbage into a country. However, before I could do that, I needed to secure my survival, because 9 times out of 10 the Ottomans kill me before 1450 and neither Byzantium nor Venice went to war so I could not get my hands on any provinces.

As I could understand from the videos, you need an alliance partner, which is most often Polan or Hungary. But therein lies the problem: At game start Ihave about -10 to -25 due to distance and army strength plus neutral attitude. Naturally, I begin improving relations, but within the first month they all ally someone else and I get the "XXX has too many diplomatic relations" modifier and even with maxed out improved relations I am stuck at -20. So how the hell do I actually ally them? Pump thousands of ducats into them while drowning in debt? The only country (that I checked) I can ally is Serbia, but they get overrun by Venice right at the start, and even if they dont, it does not deter the Ottomans from wiping the floor with me.

Is there something I overlooked or are all these insane Knights games just pure luck?

Oh, and btw I have only the Cossacks DLC, so I cant even raid coasts.

 

[Testeria]

I don't think it is doable without "raiding coasts" ability. The Knights quickly gets into money lending death spiral... I believe it was different in vanilla game but changed with "Mare Nostrum" DLC.

 

[Vetgirig]

Playing any minor nation involves a bit of luck.

However Ottoman always taking you out before 1450 is strange. Have you noticed how AI Knights do to survive much longer than that ?

Follow the AIs advice.

 

[Shreddinger]

Playing any minor nation involves a bit of luck.

However Ottoman always taking you out before 1450 is strange. Have you noticed how AI Knights do to survive much longer than that ?

Follow the AIs advice.

The Knights sit back and do nothing, letting the Ottomans slowly grow, while the Ottos kill Byz, Serbia, Albania, Candar, then the Knights relocate to Malta.
I take Greece as soon as possible, when the Ottos declare war on them, and I seem to lose Venice's guarantee over me, even if I dont declare war on them.
However, I haven't had a single game where the Knights survived the first 50 years as an AI. And sitting there just waiting for your demise is not exactly what I picture to be a fun game

I'm gonna start a new Knights game once I finish my Yuan run and get the Mare Nostrum DLC, and I will see if anything changes.

 

[Bodi]

When I played The Knights I got into opportunistic wars to take lands wherever I could, preferably islands. Ottomans attack Byzantium? Do the same and get the Greek provinces. I got a small power base in Italy when Genoa was weakened. Colonizing is also really good to grow as a minor but it can't be right away from the start since you're quite far from Gibraltar. Once I grew bigger and Ottomans became the biggest threat to World Peace, I could get alliances more easily and even got guaranteed from Russia. In a defensive war with 3 superpowers on my side I was able to get the needed provinces to form Jerusalem.

Raiding brings a lot of money, at least at the start, and was the main reason I played this tag. There's strength in being an island, it makes you much harder to conquer.

 

[Shreddinger]

yea, I do the same. Provided I don't get insta-stomped by Otto, I take all of greece, then Naxos, Corfu and the venetian islands. However, most of the times that is still not enough for other nations to notice me as an alliance partner, since I barely get to 10k army as I have no money to speak of (without raiding).

On a side note: Did anyone ever manage to take constantinople before the Ottos could do it? I think it would be pretty legit since Otto already hates you and it would pretty much double your development.

 

[YuriiH]

I don't think it is doable without "raiding coasts" ability.

It was doable before "raiding coasts" was introduced. So...

Is there something I overlooked or are all these insane Knights games just pure luck?

Pray for Byz to get Attacked first and…
Snap Constantinople from Byz when it gets attacked or at least some minor provinces. And vassalize Byzantium ally for more opportunities. With this powerbase you can do whatever you want.
OR
No-CB Pope. Wait for Pope sending troops to your fancy island, and get attacked by Provence. Take Romagna. Join HRE. Become Noble Republic and Despotic Monarchy to get some allies. Consider becoming Orthodox (to avoid maluses for being excommunicated).
OR
No-CB Irish Minor. Vassalize one. Declare on other Irish minors via your vassals conquest. Take lands for yourself. Eat all Ireland. Eat all Scotland. Eat all England. Return to Ottomans.

 

[Shreddinger]

So, went back to plays the Knights and BYZ again after some time as Austria ... got Mare Nostrum and Mandate of Heaven,too...
With raiding coasts stomping BYZ as Knights is quite easy, however taking Constantinople itself proves quite difficuilt. I made it once, when Ottos decided they need to use all of their 30k stack to run after what wass left of the BYZ army, but if they decide to stay in Constantinople, they will always reach it first, courtesy of the riddiculously long unboarding process...

Funnily enough, the trade leagues actually work against you in most cases, cause you can't just crush Cyprus when Otto attacks the Mamluks, and you can't take the isles from Venice... When I played, they even managed to ally France, so Hungary isn't going to help either.

And yes, it was doable, I myself did it on very easy mode. Grabbed Hungarys, Austria and Poland, crushed Ottos, proceeded to do the same with Mamluks, beat up Naples, etc. But this is beside the point. Watched a video by BudgetMonk and he says "ideally you want to ally Austria and Hungary" ... yeah, well, Austria always uses all of his diplo slots, so if you don't ally him the first day (which is impossible), you don't get a chance for the next 100 years. Hungary alone doesn't seem to scare off the Ottos...

And now the fun part: I allied myself with Hungary and Otto actually attacked them. Ottomans, right after a war with the Mamluks, against Austria, Hungary, Savoy, Genoa and the Knights. What could possible go wrong? Maybe the fact that Austria feeds small 8k stacks to the 30k Otto stacks, loses all troops and then fucks off? Maybe the fact that Hungary and Savoy station all their tropps (30k) inside their territory, while Otto sieges down Temes with onlys 10k and they just let him take it? I mean, the amount of stupid stuff the allied AI seems to do is just beyond me. Little fun fact: In the war against the Mamluks Otto got 71% warscore without fighting a single battle. Only saying this, because I thought about jumping on the Mamluks when they're weak, but in many playthroughs I found out that losing a war doesn't really weaken a nation's military. They just avoid combat and let the enemy siege down their land. I guess, that's reasonable?

Snap Constantinople from Byz when it gets attacked or at least some minor provinces. And vassalize Byzantium ally for more opportunities. With this powerbase you can do whatever you want.

already been there. As I said, it's hard to get Constantinople, and even if you do, it doesn't help you by much. The troops you'll be able to field will still be nothing, you'll only have more rebel hell to deal with. Vasalizing Byz is suicide, bc you get involved in your subjects war, which probably means fighting Otto... So I don't really see how I can do "what I want"

No-CB Pope. Wait for Pope sending troops to your fancy island, and get attacked by Provence

Thanks for the idea, I'm gonna try it out. However, from my experience, people never attack my enemy when I need them too

Consider becoming Orthodox

Actually, I wanted to do that. More people to raid, you don't have to convert greek provinces... The downside is, one of your ideas is "yearly papal influence" .. oh, and until recently I didn't know how to convert

 

[YuriiH]

people never attack my enemy when I need them too

You need to wipe two or three Pope's stacks. Pope has too many enemies right from the start, to stay in peace without armies.

"yearly papal influence"

Yearly Papal Influence is your ambition.
By that time you can easily grow big and become Catholic again. Besides, becoming Orthodox creates an immediate synergy with NoCBing Papal State, because most likely you'll be excommunicated while you hold Papal lands and gain little to zero Papal Influence and less friends as Catholic

 

[Shreddinger]

Hmm... But once you become big, it's gonna be harder to convert back to Catholic, since the only way you can do it is by rebels, right?

 

[YuriiH]

since the only way you can do it is by rebels,

Generally, you can convert by accepting rebel demands when they start forming. No need to spawn religious rebels (well, you can generally do that to force-convert your own provinces)
HOWEVER,
You need to have majority of Catholic provinces+1
(i.e. if you are Orthodox and have 9 total provinces, 5 Catholic, and 4 Orthodox, you will be able to convert; 4/4 won't do)
(another example, If you have 5 Catholic , 4 Orthodox, and 4 Sunni, and 4 Protestant, you will also be able to convert into Catholic)
(also, the province size does not matter, you can have 5 Catholic 1/1/1 provinces and 4 Orthodox 20/20/20, you will still be able to convert into Catholic)

OTHERWISE,
you will loose prestige and stay Orthodox if you accept rebel demands.

It's not that hard to convert: you just need to outgrow Papal State, so they can't rival you; and conquer some poor Catholic lands in addition to your own.

 

[Shreddinger]

Was thinking to convert to Orthodox, however, I like free stability from the papacy, and I haven't been able to generate religious rebels. Only seperatists

Also, with the 1.25 kicking in I found that a couple of strats against Ottos don't work anymore, it's probably intended.
However, this amused me:

"
AI regions are now different from geographic regions and are calculated to optimize AI, will hopefully help with idiot Mamluk AI."

from the Wiki.
Well, Ottos attack Mamluks, with 28k against 44k (prior to Janissaries) Mamluks take ALL of their army to Tlemcen and white peace them out, while Otto sieges down all of Mamluks and take half of the Levant without one fight.
Then, I played as the Knights, attacked Mamluks, he decided it's a good idea to fight my 16k stack with his 11k although I have better tech, better morale, better discipline and a better general, he gets stackwiped...
Now, if that is not idiot, then I don't know what is... At least now I know why Otto gets big every time.

 

[DarkAexSedai]

I recently played my first knights game and it involves some luck at the start you should get constantinople to cut down the ottomans advance ally Austria, Hungary and/or Poland if you’re lucky you get al three. After you annexed Constantinople and Athena the rebels that spam will go through the ottoman land so no need to worry about those. Now you wait for the favors to tick up and declare war on otto’s with help of your mighty allies do this while otto’s are bussy fighting Manluks. Take the capital of otto’s in the peace deal and as much in the balkans as you can mannage now your set to form Jerusalem with your next war against the Mamluks form it. I’d advice keeping the knights ideas because of the -2 unrest. After I formed Jerusalem I started eating up Italy I was lucky and Napol’s already broke the PU on their overlord Aragon. Now your probably a GP by the end of my game I had 5000+ develepmeny conquered the whole of Europe. The only hard part with the knights is the start after that you’ll probably snowball hard! It was one of the most fun games I’ve played so far