Submarines in 2024 - Radar or Snorkel in single player

[TheMoe]

Well, I decided to go ahead and give it a quick try, and I can't say I understand the screening mechanic now. I see 100% screening efficiency, though I've just killed four destroyers in this one battle.



Okay. I see it. Comes from Lancer



Makes more sense now.

Edit: My gosh there's a huge upside to setting the subs to always engage. They hold the enemy fleets in battle while my two strike fleets come out to engage. Then, they add their torpedoes to the fight. I just found several of these.



Little later...

Looks like I can take out England's entire fleet with my upgraded German starter ships and my tier III subs. I let the game run a bit longer and I stopped taking sub losses, along with zero capital ship losses on my end.



I went over to see how the AI had responded, and it looks like they've determined the waters around England are not safe. Plus they reorganized the fleets a little bit and have a whole bunch of ships in repair. I'm not finding any English ships other than transports now. Surprising.

 

[Dimmie_Dumm]

Edit: My gosh there's a huge upside to setting the subs to always engage. They hold the enemy fleets in battle

Yeap, HoI4 naval war is that odd.

You can utilize this mechanics in various forms, though.

Looks like I can take out England's entire fleet with my upgraded German starter ships and my tier III subs. I let the game run a bit longer and I stopped taking sub losses, along with zero capital ship losses on my end.

All HoI4 subs (let alone tier III and IV) are basically Cold-War era gear, with the rest of the Navy rendered into pre-war (WW1, not WW2) stuff. This seemingly absurd claim is based on sub stats and surface ship designs one is encouraged to come up with in the ship designer, and the tech progression in e.g. naval AA.

 

[AngryHitsuji]

In single player almost nothing truly "matters" compared to just using whatever you've built intelligently. Especially with something as simple to build as higher level subs.

 

[TheMoe]

In single player almost nothing truly "matters" compared to just using whatever you've built intelligently. Especially with something as simple to build as higher level subs.

I'm really seeing that in this game. Being able to destroy all of England's convoys, then take out a good portion of their fleet with my tier II and III subs + German upgraded starter ships.

I started taking a few initial losses when the US joined the war. They seem to have higher quality ships than England.

 

[Kanitatlan]

In single player almost nothing truly "matters" compared to just using whatever you've built intelligently. Especially with something as simple to build as higher level subs.

This was kind of my point with the Soviet 200 subs thing in my earlier post. As the Soviets, having carried out no naval research, I can build my starting technology subs in 1944/1945 and have a perfectly successful convoy campaign against the allies and do so whilst limited to naval bases in Germany (and Norway). I guess one interesting aspect is that range of operations completely ignores the fact that I don't ever want my subs to sail through the Channel.

The whole point is that I feel like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I build subs and deploy them. I can't tell whether later technology would be "better" because it kind of just works not matter what as long as I keep supplying a few more subs than the allies sink and before you know it, with virtually no player attention, it's over and I've won.

One of the issues is that this sort of thing is very, very easy for the player. I'm not being clever to defeat the AI, there is no real satisfaction in it. You just build these obsolescent subs and send them out into the Atlantic and then more or less forget about it.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

All HoI4 subs (let alone tier III and IV) are basically Cold-War era gear, with the rest of the Navy rendered into pre-war (WW1, not WW2) stuff..

I think that is an exaggeration. Cold War era gear would include; Wire Guided Homing Torpedoes(Torpedo Reveal Chance, Screen Penetration, and Chance to Hit). Towed Sonar Array (Reduce visibility, and increased Sub/Surface detection). Nuclear Propulsion(unlimited range, massive reduction to visibility(to reflect that it never needs to surface)). MO.S.S. Decoys(your sub can become unknown during combat again). And subs would be able to sink other subs.

Edit: and if Cold War Subs were reflected, they would cost as much IC as a battleship.

 

[Dimmie_Dumm]

I think that is an exaggeration. Cold War era gear would include; Wire Guided Homing Torpedoes(Torpedo Reveal Chance, Screen Penetration, and Chance to Hit). Towed Sonar Array (Reduce visibility, and increased Sub/Surface detection). Nuclear Propulsion(unlimited range, massive reduction to visibility(to reflect that it never needs to surface)). MO.S.S. Decoys(your sub can become unknown during combat again). And subs would be able to sink other subs.

Edit: and if Cold War Subs were reflected, they would cost as much IC as a battleship.

I don't base my opinion on names but rather on stats and mechanics. They already never surface. I.e. HoI4 sub that becomes visibile is still never hit by naval guns. The way it works, they are definitely not WW2 things either. I don't want to harp on it here, though, so I'm rather putting a relevant quote from the anti-naval bias thread under the spoiler.

Spoiler

[9] Submarines: expectations vs HoI4's reality

We believe that a lot of issues with naval warfare stems from the fact that HoI4 has been seemingly intended as a WW2 game with Germany put in the driver's seat. Various boosts economically elevating it well above its historical position imply just that. And since Germany was conducting its naval war mainly through subs (a poor man's virtue out of necessity), this aspect has been elevated as well by e.g. granting subs a stopping power that only the surface fleet could have.

WW2 subs were largely a defensive tool and in certain sense not much different to mines. (Thankfully, HoI4 models mines in a rather abstract way and spares both players and analysts many headaches. We wonder what could have been wrong with doing the same with submarines other than the considerations above).

There are some purely technical matters that are hard to be swept under the rug.

First of all, subs were slow. What HoI4 believes to be 18 knots (1936 tech) was in fact the surfaced speed (Type VIIC). Submerged was around 8. So subs either lost contact quickly or were seen, reported and shot at. They could of course lurk behind some really slow convoys (which sailed at the speed of its slowest steamer), but other than that sheer ambush and luck were the tools. HoI4 pins the targeted surface fleet down instead and makes us believe there are equal parties fighting. Late-war Type XXI was obviously far better in underwater performance, but still not nearly good enough to justify the way HoI4 subs are rendered, and they saw practically no real service anyway.

The second reason is battery capacity, which only allowed for a very limited underwater movement. At max speed they'd typically run out in just an hour or less (90 minutes for Type XXI). The faster the sub went, the easier it was for the enemy to detect due to noise of engines and reduction gears. So they literally creeped. Once the battery ran out, the sub had to either surface or stop. HoI4 allows subs to have their best performance for a virtually unlimited time and to combine the best of both worlds - a high surface speed with a stealth mode.

The third one is structural strength and the difficulties of the underwater damage control. Submarines were fragile, and once surfaced and spotted they could be threatened by being simply rammed by even the smallest ship HoI4 has (DD), let alone bigger ones. None other than the famous Dreadnought (a battleship in HoI4 terms) sunk a U-boat this way. Even non-fatal injuries (or for that matter non-combat reasons) could force the submarine to surface where it could be subsequently hit by just about anything and would rather surrender. HoI4 doesn't portray these vulnerabilities in any way, submarines are never hit by naval guns and short of having depth charges surface ships are rendered helpless. Only DD hulls have a minimal built-in damage (1) against subs.

The fourth reason is detection. The optical one was naturally poor because of low position. Radars were either absent or - when/if entering service - could have been mounted on surface ships just as well (and in fact large surface ships benefitted more since the radar too works best when raised above the water). HoI4 subs have detection equal to that of cruisers and battleships. They surpass them with the help of doctrines. The size of radars is the same and affects ships equally (battleships just pay more because of engine and armor cost modifiers). Neither of that has any real basis.

It takes as little as 4 (four) subs split into 4 task forces to cover the Atlantic from Greenland all the way down to Africa and raid with 100% efficiency. The more the better, but this bare minimum works already coverage wise.

Once in the ocean, all HoI4 ships have unlimited supply and ammo and technically may never return home. Subs however benefit by far the most due to a number of reasons.

Short of transporting US president Harry Truman, German subs in HoI4 can do anything their real counterparts could - just better and with a far fewer numbers. The same cannot be said of the surface navy as a lot of its functionality is unilaterally missed.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

I don't base my opinion on names but rather on stats and mechanics. They already never surface. I.e. HoI4 sub that becomes visibile is still never hit by naval guns. The way it works, they are definitely not WW2 things either. I don't want to harp on it here, though, so I'm rather putting a relevant quote from the anti-naval bias thread under the spoiler.

Spoiler

[9] Submarines: expectations vs HoI4's reality

We believe that a lot of issues with naval warfare stems from the fact that HoI4 has been seemingly intended as a WW2 game with Germany put in the driver's seat. Various boosts economically elevating it well above its historical position imply just that. And since Germany was conducting its naval war mainly through subs (a poor man's virtue out of necessity), this aspect has been elevated as well by e.g. granting subs a stopping power that only the surface fleet could have.

WW2 subs were largely a defensive tool and in certain sense not much different to mines. (Thankfully, HoI4 models mines in a rather abstract way and spares both players and analysts many headaches. We wonder what could have been wrong with doing the same with submarines other than the considerations above).

Spoiler

oh, wow. That is a bad take. Submarines were defiantly NOT a defensive too. The sinking of the Battleship Royal Oak off Scapa Flow by a Type 7 completely discounts that. Not to mention HMS Barham off the Egyptian coast by a U boat.

Submarines were predators of opportunity in WW2. NOT a defensive tool like a sea mine.

WOW.

 

[Gort11]

They already never surface

Naval bombers sinking submarines outside of fleet battles indicates that submarines spend at least some of their non-combat time surfaced.