I wonder if this could be handled by letting you spend authority to extend tolerance to minorities who wouldn't be tolerated by your laws.
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Should Qing Start with Han Primary Culture Or Not?
- Thread starter Keksburg
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If you want be treated like dirt, you can just accept it. But don‘t force others to admit you.
Be kind to another in this forum, here is not China, Tiktok, Blibli or Baidutieba. It's a basically attitude.
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You're mistaken. That guy means that in discriminiation, the discriminated will be treated as dirt, not simply "flavor" things. They were describing the concept of discrimination.
I think that it's more about a language gap.
So please edit it if possible. TY
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The Han majority did not revolt because they felt discriminated against, the general trend of the late 19th century was the Manchu ruling elite ceding political influence to the Han majority out of necessity (the Xiang Army, all the modernized formations, etc).
Rather, the Han majority simply stopped accepting the weak and “foreign” Qing Dynasty as legitimate. This might be better addressed with another system or modifier unique to China, rather than through the ethnicity system.
Rather, the Han majority simply stopped accepting the weak and “foreign” Qing Dynasty as legitimate. This might be better addressed with another system or modifier unique to China, rather than through the ethnicity system.
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Until the tolerance/discrimination mechanic is deepened, I'm okay with this. The situation in China cannot be rendered properly in the game.
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I've been out of the classroom for many years. But at least from what I remember, middle school history classes emphasize national unity more. Typically, the Qing Dynasty is referred to as a national family, including multiple ethnic groups such as the Han, Manchu, Tibetan, etc. The emphasis isn't placed on the differences between the Manchu and Han ethnicities, but rather on the Qing Dynasty's inheritance and development from the Ming Dynasty.
Doesn't represent my historical understanding, merely providing the official viewpoint of China.
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That's another good point- "discrimination" for Manchu over Han was really only visible at the top-level administrative and military posts, where the highest Manchu elites took a disproportionately large share of the most important offices. But most Han people would never encounter a Manchu in person and wouldn't directly experience any kind of discrimination other than the queue. Han people made up the majority of all social classes except for the absolute top level of imperial government.
Compare that to slavery and segregation in the New World, which is what the game's discrimination mechanic is most closely based on. Privileged and discriminated groups are in constant contact with each other, discriminated groups have very distinct legal and social disabilities that they are constantly reminded of, and there is often a high level of violence and intimidation aimed at keeping the discriminated people "in their place." It really doesn't make sense to model the status of Han people in Qing this way, especially in the 19th century.
Official education overplays the "one big happy family" aspect of things (this was a big part of Republican-era propaganda as well), but I think it is important to note that the Qing rulers presented themselves differently to different ethnic groups. To the Chinese, the Qing Emperor presented himself as a Neoconfucian Son of Heaven, but he was a Khagan to steppe people, a devout Esoteric Buddhist to Tibetans and other Vajrayana groups, a good Jurchen chieftain to the Manchu. It was all part of managing what they knew was a very diverse empire.
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That problem is present pretty much everywhere that isn't America. The discrimination system is really bad for representing the situation in the Ottoman Empire for example.
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Sorry for coming in late, but since Qing starts with the Cultural Exclusion policy; Han would not be discriminated against anyway unless the policy were changed.
It would make sense to change the primary culture if say a Han ruler became the head of state, but that's another can of worms.
I think the easiest solution here is to add levels to discrimination based on the citizenship policy. So for Qing, Northern Asia cultures would get the least discrimination going down to non Asian cultures. But again since they start with Cultural Exclusion, there would be no discrimination against Han since they share Sinosphere.
edit: made a post in the suggestions board for this
It would make sense to change the primary culture if say a Han ruler became the head of state, but that's another can of worms.
I think the easiest solution here is to add levels to discrimination based on the citizenship policy. So for Qing, Northern Asia cultures would get the least discrimination going down to non Asian cultures. But again since they start with Cultural Exclusion, there would be no discrimination against Han since they share Sinosphere.
edit: made a post in the suggestions board for this
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Considering that PDS decided to update the discrimination mechanic, I think that a discussion among players before forming formal suggestion might be much helpful. for now, we have no idea on what this update will be like.
Anyway, at least staffs are not ignoring this general board.
I was indeed trying to explain that discrimination in real life in not binary but it is in game.You're mistaken. That guy means that in discriminiation, the discriminated will be treated as dirt, not simply "flavor" things. They were describing the concept of discrimination.
I think that it's more about a language gap.
So please edit it if possible. TY
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In the purpose of terminating separatism, indeed binary: self and the others. But one single action may contain many different purposes, for example, administration.
For example, in real life, country A’s official language is language A, while there is also a minority B. Even though B shows basically no separatism, A still wants to assimilate B — sometimes B wants to be assimilated by A.
An anthropologist work by a British officer whose title I forget, describe how southwest china was assimilated to Han Chinese in 17C perhaps: in the beginning the locals are basically aborigines, and then Han regime came, governing by Han Chinese language. The local youth learnt how to speak Chinese first and were proud of this, because being familiar to governing language means that they could get much closer to a better life. Then in several generations, the local language was given up, and a new Han Chinese community who has no Han’s blood was formed.
Then let’s turn to another work by Znaniecki and some guy whose name I forget. That work compared the degrees of Jewish, Italian and Polish being assimilated into USA society. The former one was highly integrated, the second one mainly live in their circle so hardly being assimilated, and the last one was in a middle range. Factors to that is kinda complex, so we need a concept to have it abstracted. Luckily in Vicky 3 there is a such concept, Nationalism which I believe.
So actually there seems to be not that much necessities to consider the origin of nationalism, because there is nationalism in Vicky 3, as a technology, which I believe should be a reason why and how assimilation happened. But when nationalism doesn’t matter that much, like the SW china example I raised before, governing language matters.
And, to make things clear, the governing language is not the court language. The Mughal Empire use Persian as their court language but, they didn’t speak Persian to their subjects in tax day because no one spoke that. When England lost their authority in Ireland in about 14C, former Norman nobility in Ireland turned to Irish identification because they ruled Irish subjects. Manchu managed to maintain their identification because they were not that few, but indeed too few compared to Han, so Manchuria was not opened to Han immigrants until about 19C. Assimilation and discrimination should not be studied separately.
Manchu is a very difficult concept, and has change its meaning throughout the Qing dynasty.
Initially, Manchu did not have any ethical meaning. All Manchu meant was “slaves” of the Aisin Gioro family. To the Jurchens, “slaves” are a vastly different concept, and is somewhere in between family and clan. In the Jianzhou and late Jin era, subjugated Jurchens, Eastern Mongols, Koreans, and Han Chinese all served as bannerman and were thus considered “Manchu”. It was not a ethnicity, but really whoever served the Aisin Gioro family.
This continued until the Qing conquest of China. While Qing kept the old bureaucratic structure, they’ve also settled Manchus though out the country, where there would be a Manchu part of town and a Han part of town. The Manchu would have parallel( or often higher) authority with the traditional bureaucracy. This meant that the Manchus essentially became a new ruling class, with their authority coming from the fact that they are the emperor’s “slaves”.
Now, the Qing dynasty faces a problem, as Manchus were unable to keep their identity. While intermarriage is restricted between Han and Manchu, Jurchens were only a fraction within the whole Manchu population, the Jurchen and other ethnicity began assimilating into the mainstream “Han Manchu”. To solve this issue, the Manchu and bannerman concepts were broken apart, as Mongol Banners and Han Banners were created. Where as before every bannerman was by definition a Manchu, that was no longer the case. Since the Mongols and Han Bannerman were no longer Manchu, the term “Manchu” became reserved to the rest of the bannerman, i.e. the Jurchens, even though many of them were already assimilated anyways. This is when Manchu actually became a term for the ethnicity.
In conclusion, Manchu, as a concept, evolved through Qing dynasty’s reign. Tying back to this post, at the beginning of V3, Manchu is somewhere in between the transition of being a ruling caste and an ethnicity. It will be very difficult to model this transition, so Han population should definitely be represented as a primary culture.
Initially, Manchu did not have any ethical meaning. All Manchu meant was “slaves” of the Aisin Gioro family. To the Jurchens, “slaves” are a vastly different concept, and is somewhere in between family and clan. In the Jianzhou and late Jin era, subjugated Jurchens, Eastern Mongols, Koreans, and Han Chinese all served as bannerman and were thus considered “Manchu”. It was not a ethnicity, but really whoever served the Aisin Gioro family.
This continued until the Qing conquest of China. While Qing kept the old bureaucratic structure, they’ve also settled Manchus though out the country, where there would be a Manchu part of town and a Han part of town. The Manchu would have parallel( or often higher) authority with the traditional bureaucracy. This meant that the Manchus essentially became a new ruling class, with their authority coming from the fact that they are the emperor’s “slaves”.
Now, the Qing dynasty faces a problem, as Manchus were unable to keep their identity. While intermarriage is restricted between Han and Manchu, Jurchens were only a fraction within the whole Manchu population, the Jurchen and other ethnicity began assimilating into the mainstream “Han Manchu”. To solve this issue, the Manchu and bannerman concepts were broken apart, as Mongol Banners and Han Banners were created. Where as before every bannerman was by definition a Manchu, that was no longer the case. Since the Mongols and Han Bannerman were no longer Manchu, the term “Manchu” became reserved to the rest of the bannerman, i.e. the Jurchens, even though many of them were already assimilated anyways. This is when Manchu actually became a term for the ethnicity.
In conclusion, Manchu, as a concept, evolved through Qing dynasty’s reign. Tying back to this post, at the beginning of V3, Manchu is somewhere in between the transition of being a ruling caste and an ethnicity. It will be very difficult to model this transition, so Han population should definitely be represented as a primary culture.
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Continuing on, there is a drastic difference between the Manchus in the imperial court, and Manchus in the provinces. The court Manchus were capable of being educated in Manchu/Jurchen, while the provincial Manchus simply did not have the resources. This distinction is also important - Manchus in the provinces felt distinct and neglected from the court, while the court Manchus further neglects the provincal Manchu since they do not “follow Manchu/Jurchen traditions”.
This, along with other reasons, is why Manchus outside of Zhili stopped being claiming themselves as Manchus. Manchus in former Zhili (now Hebei, Tianjin, and Beijing) are quite notorious for being prideful of being a Manchu, while outside the area it’s not that much of a glamorous thing to talk about.
This, along with other reasons, is why Manchus outside of Zhili stopped being claiming themselves as Manchus. Manchus in former Zhili (now Hebei, Tianjin, and Beijing) are quite notorious for being prideful of being a Manchu, while outside the area it’s not that much of a glamorous thing to talk about.