Should it be possible to move divisions using transport plane fleets?

[Ossiv]

The Germans used Me 323 Gigant transport aircraft that could carry 12 tons of equipment. Internet has pics where 88 mm AA guns, 150 mm field howitzers or Marder tank destroyers are loaded through it's rear ramp.

Messerschmitt Me 323 Gigant - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[marcelo r. r.]

- Strategic redeployment is already crazily fast, if they implement a even more faster plane transport will sound like a teletransportation.
- The only accont i really read know for transport dificulties in ww2 was stalingrad issues, its seems planes at era can't transport too much.

- The actual game scales don't fit anything real, u can output too many of transports planes.
- Theres the enemy air, its downplayed broader use of air transport.

 

[Crecer13]

At the

Could it not be solved similarly to how the airdroppable (forgetting the name) stat is solved today? Given the same conditions as airborne (no heavy batalions) the division can be airlifted but if you add such battalions it can not.

There are a lot of conventions in the game. Even the Airborne Forces can actually be heavy divisions in this game. If we look at the entire third level of artillery, the research is: FlaK-41 11 tons, PaK-44 10 tons, BS-3 (in the image you can see that this is a BS-3, but for some reason it has a ZiS-3) 3.6 tons, QF 3.7-inch AA gun 9 tons, QF 17 pounder - 3 tons, etc. I'm not even talking about 150 mm artillery. But the Airborne Forces may well receive all these guns and be parachuteable.

Or we leave all the conventions as they are, and then an ordinary infantry division can be transported from airfield to airfield. Either it’s time to introduce heavy gliders into the game so that the Airborne Forces can jump with heavy guns and medium tanks, or it’s time to finally introduce into the game so that both transport aircraft share aircraft designer, then you can create a heavy transport aircraft.

 

[Ossiv]

There are a lot of conventions in the game. Even the Airborne Forces can actually be heavy divisions in this game. If we look at the entire third level of artillery, the research is: FlaK-41 11 tons, PaK-44 10 tons, BS-3 (in the image you can see that this is a BS-3, but for some reason it has a ZiS-3) 3.6 tons, QF 3.7-inch AA gun 9 tons, QF 17 pounder - 3 tons, etc. I'm not even talking about 150 mm artillery. But the Airborne Forces may well receive all these guns and be parachuteable.

Or we leave all the conventions as they are, and then an ordinary infantry division can be transported from airfield to airfield. Either it’s time to introduce heavy gliders into the game so that the Airborne Forces can jump with heavy guns and medium tanks, or it’s time to finally introduce into the game so that both transport aircraft share aircraft designer, then you can create a heavy transport aircraft.

Airborne forces did not jump with medium tanks during WW2. They used light tanks transported by large gliders, but not in big numbers. That is what was really done historically and that is already represented in game.

What is not represented is 22nd Infantry (Airlanding) division air transported into the Netherlands or 5th Mountain division into Crete, when German paras had captured airfields. 5th Mountain was an ordinary mountain division, not airlanding specialists. Those were real historical operation done with infantry/mountain troops who were not paras and who did not jump.

 

[Crecer13]

Airborne forces did not jump with medium tanks during WW2. They used light tanks transported by large gliders, but not in big numbers. That is what was really done historically and that is already represented in game.

What is not represented is 22nd Airlanding division air transported into the Netherlands or 5th Mountain division into Crete, when German paras had captured airfields. Those were real historical operation done with infantry/mountain troops who were not paras and who did not jump.

Not really. The Me.321 glider was specially created to transport medium tanks weighing up to 22 tons. It was designed specifically for the invasion of England. So he could transport any medium equipment that was in service in Germany at that time.

The fact that Germany canceled the operation does not mean that it is impossible to transport medium tanks and we cannot use them in the game. Because we are the commanders here, and we are ordering the medium tanks to be dropped into England.

 

[Cornutus]

Not really. The Me.321 glider was specially created to transport medium tanks weighing up to 22 tons. It was designed specifically for the invasion of England. So he could transport any medium equipment that was in service in Germany at that time.

The fact that Germany canceled the operation does not mean that it is impossible to transport medium tanks and we cannot use them in the game. Because we are the commanders here, and we are ordering the medium tanks to be dropped into England.

You have the problem that mid-war medium tanks become too heavy for such aircraft. 20 tons is what an early Pz. IV or S-35 weighed, but even a T-34 becomes too heavy.

 

[Crecer13]

You have the problem that mid-war medium tanks become too heavy for such aircraft. 20 tons is what an early Pz. IV or S-35 weighed, but even a T-34 becomes too heavy.

Well, no one forbids making a medium-late war medium tank weighing 20 tons, there were simply no requirements. A good example is the T-44, just like the Panther; its original requirements were a mass of 30 tons. With similar armor, the T-44 weighs 32 tons and the Panther 45 tons as a heavy tank. That's why we have a tank designer.

 

[Cornutus]

Well, no one forbids making a medium-late war medium tank weighing 20 tons, there were simply no requirements. A good example is the T-44, just like the Panther; its original requirements were a mass of 30 tons. With similar armor, the T-44 weighs 32 tons and the Panther 45 tons as a heavy tank. That's why we have a tank designer.

I don't that's possible from an engineering standpoint.

An M24 Chaffee was 20 tons, with a 75mm cannon and low armor (kind of similar to an early Pz. IV actually). I guess that's really pushing the limit.

German tanks were heavier due to design choices, but that came with its own merits. For example the T-34 required you to apply a force of 25-45 kg on each engine control stick, while German tanks thanks to a frontal transmission had it a lot easier in operation: but a lot more difficult when repairs were needed.

 

[Crecer13]

I don't that's possible from an engineering standpoint.

An M24 Chaffee was 20 tons, with a 75mm cannon and low armor (kind of similar to an early Pz. IV actually). I guess that's really pushing the limit.

German tanks were heavier due to design choices, but that came with its own merits. For example the T-34 required you to apply a force of 25-45 kg on each engine control stick, while German tanks thanks to a frontal transmission had it a lot easier in operation: but a lot more difficult when repairs were needed.

Quite doable. The USSR seriously developed the LTTB project - a light tank; its initial requirements were a 76 mm S-54 gun with ballistics like a 3-K anti-aircraft gun, 75 mm front armor. And it weighed less than 20 tons. Later, this project, at the request of the Main Artillery Directorate, had even higher requirements - 90 mm front armor and an 85 mm gun, such a project was made again and it weighed just over 20 tons. This is a tank with a gun and front armor like the T-44 and it weighs about 20 tons.

As Boris the Blade said - “Heavy is good, heavy is reliable”. In relation to tanks, it has exactly the opposite meaning. The greater the weight and the greater the load on the transmission, the more breakdowns. In the USSR they took this very seriously and the T-44 had the same weight and gun as the T-34-85 and at the same time had twice as thick frontal armor

 

[General Tao]

Please focus on improving existing mechanics related to transports (i.e. air supply) rather than introduce new ones. We can't even drop fuel with air supply yet for goodness sake, this would be such a QoL improvement for tank gameplay.

The AI even uses air supply, surely this is the thing to focus on.

 

[Gort11]

Yeah, I'd like to be able to move divisions by air transport between airbases. Obviously the division would have to be one that's feasibly transportable by air (nothing heavier than a light tank), but we already have that kind of checks in the game code.

Of course, the AI doesn't know how to do paradrops, so we might just be adding another player-only tool here.

 

[Rycestealer]

Moving an entire division and it's heavy equipment is just too much for airlifting. Moving all the regimental artillery, any medium tanks, and prime movers on planes from that era would not be possible flat out.

 

[LordWahu]

- Strategic redeployment is already crazily fast, if they implement a even more faster plane transport will sound like a teletransportation.
- The only accont i really read know for transport dificulties in ww2 was stalingrad issues, its seems planes at era can't transport too much.

- The actual game scales don't fit anything real, u can output too many of transports planes.
- Theres the enemy air, its downplayed broader use of air transport

It's probably most useful for situations where a pocket holds an airfield, and has enough air supply (or perhaps an interdicted port), but just needs a few more divisions to hold it

I do agree that it needs to not be instant though. That kind of operation would take time to organize, and a juicy target for interception. Only something doable over green air for sure

 

[Chomp87]

The Germans used Me 323 Gigant transport aircraft that could carry 12 tons of equipment. Internet has pics where 88 mm AA guns, 150 mm field howitzers or Marder tank destroyers are loaded through it's rear ramp.

Messerschmitt Me 323 Gigant - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It could only carry the 12 tons with rocket assistance though, and moving more than a few dozen heavy guns would be an incredible feat.
I am not arguing that it is entirely impossible (no doubt with the right plane design you could even carry a heavy tank), utterly merely impractical for the era of HoI.
Nobody really wants a whole tree of transport planes to research, and it is easier for the player and code to make a clear distinction between Air Transportable and not air transportable.

 

[goodcigar]

- Strategic redeployment is already crazily fast, if they implement a even more faster plane transport will sound like a teletransportation.
- The only accont i really read know for transport dificulties in ww2 was stalingrad issues, its seems planes at era can't transport too much.

- The actual game scales don't fit anything real, u can output too many of transports planes.
- Theres the enemy air, its downplayed broader use of air transport.

Strat Deploy being too fast and easy is a separate issue. The Germans had some VERY big Transport aircraft and they used them a a lot.

It's probably most useful for situations where a pocket holds an airfield, and has enough air supply (or perhaps an interdicted port), but just needs a few more divisions to hold it

I do agree that it needs to not be instant though. That kind of operation would take time to organize, and a juicy target for interception. Only something doable over green air for sure

One of the current problems with Air Supply is that it just spreads the Supply out equally to all units in the area instead of allowing you to choose which units have priority to receive the Supply. It should be ideal for use in helping a surrounded pocket of guys but it isn't.

 

[FlinzP]

I would find it enough that you could air supply only paratrooper divisions. Just so they don't get out of supply and surrounded so fast. If they control airfield then some infantry equipment and supply equipment could be possible to be received. Still not so that you could supply massive number of paradrop divisions. This would make paratroopers interesting to use in game.

Supplying entire army with some planes is not really something that feels right. Players even have much larger and better geared armies that were in the reality. Dropping some random stuff to your army doesn't really make difference you might think.

If you look points that made historical airlift problematic you can see why:

• It is better to use planes to bomb enemies than make unefficient supply system. If you are air supplying, it is also likely that enemy is controling skies so those supply planes end up being easy target.
• Concentrating massive number of transport planes or supplytask bombers on certain area is logistics nightmare. You need large clear airfields with steady supply and air is filled with planes. Every other part of nation would be lacking these planes. It is possible to accomplish but very hard for almost every nation during ww2.
• Weather was constant issue. Usually when army most needed supply it was not possible to deliver.

 

[Androbey]

What do you think you are doing with paratroops?
To move a division with transports you will need to strip out ALL heavy equipment.
It's not all about the weight capacity of transports, It's about the fuselage cross-section. The width and height of a typical transport will not accommodate the typical supply truck, much less a medium tank. Not to mention that tanks loadout of supply for even two days.

A C-47 could carry 28 passengers, 18-22 fully equipped paratroopers, about 6,000 lbs. of cargo or 18 stretchers and three medical personnel.
Medium tanks of 1939 weighed around 20 tonnes (20 long tons).

 

[Gort11]

To move a division with transports you will need to strip out ALL heavy equipment.

That's not really accurate. Paratroopers jumping out of planes had very different equipment to say, the German mountain troops that were landed from planes at airfields in the Battle of Crete. If you're not familiar with it, the basics are that German paratroopers captured airfields which were then used to fly in heavier-armed mountain troops. Germany won the battle but it was pretty costly in paratroopers and transport planes.

You're not getting a Tiger in a transport plane, but you can get much heavier artillery in there than a paratrooper can jump with.

 

[Chomp87]

That's not really accurate. Paratroopers jumping out of planes had very different equipment to say, the German mountain troops that were landed from planes at airfields in the Battle of Crete. If you're not familiar with it, the basics are that German paratroopers captured airfields which were then used to fly in heavier-armed mountain troops. Germany won the battle but it was pretty costly in paratroopers and transport planes.

You're not getting a Tiger in a transport plane, but you can get much heavier artillery in there than a paratrooper can jump with.

The Mountain troops used pack guns which could be broken into smaller loads for the most part.
They'd been training over 1940 to lead the amphibious assault on England.

 

[Crecer13]

The Mountain troops used pack guns which could be broken into smaller loads for the most part.
They'd been training over 1940 to lead the amphibious assault on England.

Since mountain troops were light troops, they were often used in landing operations. The Germans used them in airborne landing operations, in the USSR they often performed a quasi-marine role, they were easier to transfer on simpler ships due to light artillery, after the naval infantry (and in some cases paratroopers) captured a beachhead.