Powderkeg of Europe - Balkans thread

[vikinglord]

Which one are you referring to? I posted 3. And can you provide proof it is fake, not just claim so?

The first one. I can take a picture of the Bulgarian original I have here at home, but you will claim you don't understand it.

Here's a link with the online pdf version, which you can translate using Google Translate, if you wish. https://www.strumski.com/books/Dimitar_Talev_Ilinden.pdf
The quote is on page 250.

And no, it does not seek to support Macedonian propaganda, With this quote and the text afterwards Talev tries to show the autonomist views of Delchev, meaning that in an independent Macedonia, the Greek, Turk and Bulgarian will not have to fight but will live in peace.

The third quote is misquoted. The full version is "While my shoulder should carry a rifle, Macedonia will not be available to the Bulgarian officer". It refers to the attempts by some politicians to oppose the organisation to conform with the wishes of the Great Powers.

I don't know about the second quote but judging by your track record it's probably fake or misquoted as well.

 

[TonyJones]

The first one. I can take a picture of the Bulgarian original I have here at home, but you will claim you don't understand it.

Here's a link with the online pdf version, which you can translate using Google Translate, if you wish. https://www.strumski.com/books/Dimitar_Talev_Ilinden.pdf
The quote is on page 250.

And no, it does not seek to support Macedonian propaganda, With this quote and the text afterwards Talev tries to show the autonomist views of Delchev, meaning that in an independent Macedonia, the Greek, Turk and Bulgarian will not have to fight but will live in peace.

The third quote is misquoted. The full version is "While my shoulder should carry a rifle, Macedonia will not be available to the Bulgarian officer". It refers to the attempts by some politicians to oppose the organisation to conform with the wishes of the Great Powers.

I don't know about the second quote but judging by your track record it's probably fake or misquoted as well.

So does this first part mean the quote is real? You're saying Talev is trying to show Delchev's views on something, and to do so he'd need a real Delchev quote.

What do you mean with the third quote here? You say "the full quote is...", but I quoted the full quote. Maybe you forgot to post the full quote, or didn't realise I did? And what do you mean with your explanation? While the VMRO exists Bulgaria can not be in Macedonia, as the Great Powers disallow it? Maybe explain that again I misunderstand, though I think the explanation that Delchev is against Bulgarian invasion of Macedonia is correct.

 

[vikinglord]

So does this first part mean the quote is real? You're saying Talev is trying to show Delchev's views on something, and to do so he'd need a real Delchev quote.

What do you mean with the third quote here? You say "the full quote is...", but I quoted the full quote. Maybe you forgot to post the full quote, or didn't realise I did? And what do you mean with your explanation? While the VMRO exists Bulgaria can not be in Macedonia, as the Great Powers disallow it? Maybe explain that again I misunderstand, though I think the explanation that Delchev is against Bulgarian invasion of Macedonia is correct.

Or maybe you can't read and see that the third quote has an "officer" at the end? The Great Powers did not wish for what happened with Eastern Rumelia (i.e. unification with Bulgaria) to reoccur with an autonomous Macedonia, as they wanted to keep the Ottoman Empire as a big market and did not want to allow the other Great Powers to gain influence in the lands upon its dissolution.

As regards to the first quote, as I said, Ilinden is a novel. A work of fiction. Delchev never said that. Talev could have written that Delchev said that the Moon is Macedonian and you would still believe it. It is a novel, it is not a biography of Delchev, he is not quoting him and never has.

 

[TonyJones]

Or maybe you can't read and see that the third quote has an "officer" at the end? The Great Powers did not wish for what happened with Eastern Rumelia (i.e. unification with Bulgaria) to reoccur with an autonomous Macedonia, as they wanted to keep the Ottoman Empire as a big market and did not want to allow the other Great Powers to gain influence in the lands upon its dissolution.

As regards to the first quote, as I said, Ilinden is a novel. A work of fiction. Delchev never said that. Talev could have written that Delchev said that the Moon is Macedonian and you would still believe it. It is a novel, it is not a biography of Delchev, he is not quoting him and never has.

So why is it as long as Delchev holds the rifle will a Bulgarian officer not be in Macedonia? Once the VMRO disbands the Greater Powers would be fine with Macedonia joining Bulgaria?

I don't know if the quote is specifically from this book or whatever, so I got to look into that more, but even then this is one quote among many others, and even then this is just Delchev we are speaking of of all Macedonians, so there is many more quotes like it.

 

[vikinglord]

So why is it as long as Delchev holds the rifle will a Bulgarian officer not be in Macedonia? Once the VMRO disbands the Greater Powers would be fine with Macedonia joining Bulgaria?

I don't know if the quote is specifically from this book or whatever, so I got to look into that more, but even then this is one quote among many others, and even then this is just Delchev we are speaking of of all Macedonians, so there is many more quotes like it.

Yes there are many other quotes, like the one I posted, in which Delchev states his nationality. This is just Delchev we are speaking of all Bulgarians.

And no disbanding VMRO has nothing to do with the quote. Some people in the government wanted VMRO to limit its activities to when it was politically appropriate, as Bulgaria itself was under pressure by the Great Powers to end the organisation.

Do you want to make a guess why Bulgaria specifically was held accountable for VMRO's actions?

Again, the Great Powers, besides Russia and after a certain point in time Austria-Hungary, did not want any more land taken from the Ottoman Empire. They wanted to keep the status quo from the 1878 Berlin Conference. I have no idea how you came up with the notion that the Great Powers would be fine with whatever if VMRO is disbanded. This is not a give and take, it is just a take.

 

[JackAlNXT]

That's just what all the North Macedonian sources are though. It's just random quotes pulled out of context to fit into a revisionist narrative.

 

[TonyJones]

Yes there are many other quotes, like the one I posted, in which Delchev states his nationality. This is just Delchev we are speaking of all Bulgarians.

And no disbanding VMRO has nothing to do with the quote. Some people in the government wanted VMRO to limit its activities to when it was politically appropriate, as Bulgaria itself was under pressure by the Great Powers to end the organisation.

Do you want to make a guess why Bulgaria specifically was held accountable for VMRO's actions?

Again, the Great Powers, besides Russia and after a certain point in time Austria-Hungary, did not want any more land taken from the Ottoman Empire. They wanted to keep the status quo from the 1878 Berlin Conference. I have no idea how you came up with the notion that the Great Powers would be fine with whatever if VMRO is disbanded. This is not a give and take, it is just a take.

Delchev in the quote states a Bulgarian officer will not be in Macedonia as long as he holds a rifle, meaning that he will not let Bulgaria take Macedonia as long as he is there to fight them. What does this have to do with the Great Powers wishing not for Bulgaria to expand?

 

[vikinglord]

Delchev in the quote states a Bulgarian officer will not be in Macedonia as long as he holds a rifle, meaning that he will not let Bulgaria take Macedonia as long as he is there to fight them. What does this have to do with the Great Powers wishing not for Bulgaria to expand?

"Delchev has a quote which I misquoted and then building upon the new bit at the end of the quote I just discovered I will claim that it means such and such. What does my skewed interpretation and misquoting have to do with something which I do not claim"

Amusing.

How would you comment on the quote I provided which Gotse personally wrote in a letter to Nikola Maleshevski? Maybe he meant to write he is Macedonian but his pen slipped or something?

 

[TonyJones]

"Delchev has a quote which I misquoted and then building upon the new bit at the end of the quote I just discovered I will claim that it means such and such. What does my skewed interpretation and misquoting have to do with something which I do not claim"

Amusing.

I did not misquote it. Bulgarian, Bulgarian officer, it means the same thing. I wasn't claiming Delchev was some kind of Macedonian supremacist who wanted to make sure there was no Bulgarians in Macedonia, I meant he didn't want the Bulgarian army/government in Macedonia. I've been saying the same thing the whole time.

 

[safferli]

Please all take a step back, breath, and please take an empathic view of the other side's position.

It would be a shame if I had to close this thread.

 

[vikinglord]

I did not misquote it. Bulgarian, Bulgarian officer, it means the same thing. I wasn't claiming Delchev was some kind of Macedonian supremacist who wanted to make sure there was no Bulgarians in Macedonia, I meant he didn't want the Bulgarian army/government in Macedonia. I've been saying the same thing the whole time.

Still failing to comment on Gotse's letter to Maleshevski. I will provide it to you and to everyone else for that matter. Although bear in mind it's in cursive.

Писмо от Гоце Делчев до Никола Малешевски – Уикиизточник

bg.wikisource.org

File:Gotsedelchev-letter.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

The sentence with "...since we are all Bulgarians..." and the word Bulgarians is on rows 7 and 8 of the letter.

 

[TonyJones]

Still failing to comment on Gotse's letter to Maleshevski. I will provide it to you and to everyone else for that matter. Although bear in mind it's in cursive.

Писмо от Гоце Делчев до Никола Малешевски – Уикиизточник

bg.wikisource.org

File:Gotsedelchev-letter.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

The sentence with "...since we are all Bulgarians..." and the word Bulgarians is on rows 7 and 8 of the letter.

Yes I said before. He also refers to the disease of Greek that many Macedonians have fallen to, diseases that they must not succumb to. This is referring to how many Macedonians have been Bulgarised (if that's the word) and Hellenized by the Bulgarian and Greek Orthodox Churches respectively.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Reading over the replies, would a solid gameplay solution be a gradual introduction of Macedonian pops as Nationalism takes hold, that ends up being small unless it becomes actively encouraged by a party that benefits from it? Whether it be Yugoslavia like historically, a Macedonist movement taking over the region or some third party?

 

[TonyJones]

Reading over the replies, would a solid gameplay solution be a gradual introduction of Macedonian pops as Nationalism takes hold, that ends up being small unless it becomes actively encouraged by a party that benefits from it? Whether it be Yugoslavia like historically, a Macedonist movement taking over the region or some third party?

I disagree. It should be in the game from the start as there were Macedonians in 1836.

 

[vikinglord]

Yes I said before. He also refers to the disease of Greek that many Macedonians have fallen to, diseases that they must not succumb to. This is referring to how many Macedonians have been Bulgarised (if that's the word) and Hellenized by the Bulgarian and Greek Orthodox Churches respectively.

He explicitly says "since we are all Bulgarians". He is not talking about someone else, do not put words in his mouth. You are extrapolating from another quote about Hellenisation that he surely must have talked somewhere about Bulgarisation. Only that he is not. And you are still avoiding the quote itself. The next sentence talks about how his ancestors were also like him and that's why they fell under the Turks. Nowhere is this notion of Bulgarisation, which you are trying to introduce to steer the discussion away from the actual quote

 

[vikinglord]

Reading over the replies, would a solid gameplay solution be a gradual introduction of Macedonian pops as Nationalism takes hold, that ends up being small unless it becomes actively encouraged by a party that benefits from it? Whether it be Yugoslavia like historically, a Macedonist movement taking over the region or some third party?

If somehow foreign political encouragement can be simulated then definitely yes. It would be more towards the ends of the timeline of the game with the introduction of socialist and communist ideas in the world

 

[TonyJones]

He explicitly says "since we are all Bulgarians". He is not talking about someone else, do not put words in his mouth. You are extrapolating from another quote about Hellenisation that he surely must have talked somewhere about Bulgarisation. Only that he is not. And you are still avoiding the quote itself. The next sentence talks about how his ancestors were also like him and that's why they fell under the Turks. Nowhere is this notion of Bulgarisation, which you are trying to introduce to steer the discussion away from the actual quote

He does say those 2 sentences. Next sentence he says how it is their job to not fall to that disease, which they have fallen to currently yes, being Bulgarian Orthodox, but must fight this influence.

 

[vikinglord]

He does say those 2 sentences. Next sentence he says how it is their job to not fall to that disease, which they have fallen to currently yes, being Bulgarian Orthodox, but must fight this influence.

Let's start again, First sentence is about the splintering and bickering in the organisation. He then says that since they are all Bulgarians, that disease (the disease of national disunity and bickering, being overly critical of a bad national trait) is bound to be affecting all of them. After that he refers to his ancestors, which fell under the Turks in the 14th century when Bulgaria was split into the Vidin Tsardom, the Turnovo Tsardom and the Dobrudja Despotate, again referring to the bickering and splintering. Then he says that regardless of all of this they must cure themselves of this bad trait.

Or, we could go by with your interpretation and say that Gotse was some kind of a nihilist who claims he is Bulgarian yet despises it????

That's Macedonist historiography in a nutshell. Misquoting, made-up quotes and the most absurd interpretations that could exist.

 

[TonyJones]

Let's start again, First sentence is about the splintering and bickering in the organisation. He then says that since they are all Bulgarians, that disease (the disease of national disunity and bickering, being overly critical of a bad national trait) is bound to be affecting all of them. After that he refers to his ancestors, which fell under the Turks in the 14th century when Bulgaria was split into the Vidin Tsardom, the Turnovo Tsardom and the Dobrudja Despotate, again referring to the bickering and splintering. Then he says that regardless of all of this they must cure themselves of this bad trait.

Or, we could go by with your interpretation and say that Gotse was some kind of a nihilist who claims he is Bulgarian yet despises it????

That's Macedonist historiography in a nutshell. Misquoting, made-up quotes and the most absurd interpretations that could exist.

He's saying he's Bulgarian by being part of the Bulgarian Exarchate, not being ethnically Bulgarian. Macedonia was not apart of any of those 3 nations at the time, Delcev's area would have been part of (East) Rome/Byzantium.

 

[vikinglord]

He's saying he's Bulgarian by being part of the Bulgarian Exarchate, not being ethnically Bulgarian. Macedonia was not apart of any of those 3 nations at the time, Delcev's area would have been part of (East) Rome/Byzantium.

Another classic Macedonist claim. Nowhere does he mention the Exarchate. He says "since we are all Bulgarian". He does not say "since we are all part of the Bulgarian Exarchate". Because guess what? Some Bulgarians, including a sizeable part in Macedonia were not part of the Exarchate, but were Uniates under the pope. In Kukush, in Gevgeliya, in Syar. And many of them were in the VMRO.

That's your problem. You do not approach this topic from a historical perspective, you approach it from the perspective that these people were Macedonians and then try to find absurd arguments to defend your claim.

As regards to geographic Macedonia not being part of the 3 states when they fell. So? Are ethnicities confined to a particular state?