I see, my mistake and my apologies then. I am still partially on HoI3's manual rules and still need to familiarize myself with SFi and FtM with some changes to the overall gameplay.
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... if some provinces only support 5 brigades, it is okay ... BUT ALSO FOR THE AI ...
so how should I defend with 5 brigades a province, or conquer it ... even I have 10 infra on my side and a direct line, all infra 10 ...and my brigades are out of supply ... on the other side are 20 or more brigades , infra 4 not improved infra BUT they are in full supply ... even my tech is 2 years ahead ...
okay it is simple, if I would load RUSSIA or USA as human player in my games, I would loose most of my troops after 30 days, because I am out of supply and Germany would steamrole me.
I really like complicated systems, but it isn't fun when the rules didn't count for the opponent ...
to break through russians defence I need stacks of 30 brigades in one province , as he has 60 ...
I hope you can see, what I want to say is ... the rules say: not possible to have 60 brigades on that province, NO PROBLEM, but not for AI !
... makes no sense.
When there is a desert province, it isn't possible to move 80 brigades through it , AI does it (ignoring all rules of supply) and human player has problems to move 5 brigades there ... even have that Wüstenfüchse there (DI Mod) ...
..
that is the problem, what I have with the game ! but atm, if I load the game as Russia or USA, I am dead in 30 days and AI German suddenly has no problems ,,, hope I was able to explain, what I mean.
Thanks
so how should I defend with 5 brigades a province, or conquer it ... even I have 10 infra on my side and a direct line, all infra 10 ...and my brigades are out of supply ... on the other side are 20 or more brigades , infra 4 not improved infra BUT they are in full supply ... even my tech is 2 years ahead ...
okay it is simple, if I would load RUSSIA or USA as human player in my games, I would loose most of my troops after 30 days, because I am out of supply and Germany would steamrole me.
I really like complicated systems, but it isn't fun when the rules didn't count for the opponent ...
to break through russians defence I need stacks of 30 brigades in one province , as he has 60 ...
I hope you can see, what I want to say is ... the rules say: not possible to have 60 brigades on that province, NO PROBLEM, but not for AI !
... makes no sense.
When there is a desert province, it isn't possible to move 80 brigades through it , AI does it (ignoring all rules of supply) and human player has problems to move 5 brigades there ... even have that Wüstenfüchse there (DI Mod) ...
..
that is the problem, what I have with the game ! but atm, if I load the game as Russia or USA, I am dead in 30 days and AI German suddenly has no problems ,,, hope I was able to explain, what I mean.
Thanks
Can you explain this a bit more? What is CMP? What exactly do I need to do to move the depot?
P.S. I hope everyone realizes that the FIRST dev diary PI does for HoI 4 will be about supply.
Community Map Project. You will find it on the mod forum. There is a good chance it will be included in the next patch.
You don't move the depot...you merely limit the choices the supply system has. I do not remember the provinces, but on the French IndoChina border with Guanxi Clique, those provinces have level 4 infra. Changing this to level 1 cuts this area off, taking it out of the calculation for the supply depot. This means that you have to take this area by invasion, but the removal of the supply headache is well worth it.
I just went to the CMP map and it doesn't correct this problem. For your present version of FTM the provinces you need to change are Lang Son (5898) and Tien Yen (5917). I don't bother to edit the province files, I merely edit the save game. It makes playing Japan far more enjoyable.
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Aha, so it seems that you are of the opinion that units which are completely out of supply should just be eliminated ala the old Avalon Hill games. I get it, now.
Well nearly, I am actually more of the opinion that "out of supply" doesn't mean I have absolutely nothing, more like "my supply shortages are critical". If it meant absolutely nothing the units should surrender (which they don't), so if they are still defending they must have some supplies of some things. So other behaviour should match this logic. I agree this is simply my interpretation
The AI doesn't have any supply cheats, so I'm not sure what you mean. It does get a throughput bonus on hard/VH, but that's part of what makes it harder, and it's still not magic supply from unicorns. If you really dislike it but want to play on hard you can edit the difficulty modifiers.
Well nearly, I am actually more of the opinion that "out of supply" doesn't mean I have absolutely nothing, more like "my supply shortages are critical". If it meant absolutely nothing the units should surrender (which they don't), so if they are still defending they must have some supplies of some things. So other behaviour should match this logic. I agree this is simply my interpretation
Well they will surrender fairly rapidly when attacked, especially when they are out of org. A unit out of supply will start losing org and then strength, you can imagine the str loss as individuals surrendering unordered rather than starving if you prefer.
There is a bug in the AI production logic that cause supplies send to troops stationed in allied territory to be counted as a trade, which cause the AI to think it is for its own units; hence it reduces its supply production and there will be a general supply shortage in the entire country.
As this thread already went a bit off topic I would like to have it back on track.
So I like to requote my not answered question again to get an answer on that:
(From unsanswerd post 6: Please-Devs-explain-the-supply-system-again-for-quot-dummies-quot-like-me..post 6
Hi podcat and thank you for answering that part so quick!
I get it now with the yellow colour being connected to the infra damaged. Forgot to check about that on the prov view. :blush:
But I still get not, why sometimes the colour of the tooltip is red.
I have sometimes red colour while only tranporting less then max possible throughput.
Btw. what is the max amount in 10 lvl infra? I spotted so far ~3k+ supply and 400 fuel as max. Brandenburg next to Berlin is also able of 15k+ supply, but iirc the capital neighbouring provs have no cap, right?
I had red colour with 80 or 2.4 k supply in a 10lvl infra prov.. While sometimes with the same amount all is fine..(No dmg to the prov, background colour also different, green or brown, but mostly with red hatching..)
I could upload a save or show pictures that I took if that is wanted, but that is also easily reproduced imho.
I can also not confirm the info about the red hatching. As I had red hatching in prov with supply received/required way below the mentioned amount in lvl 10 infras.
Sometimes already red hatching with required supply of some ~300..
Please have another look at this an tell us what this is about.
And please give us the max amount of throughput per infra lvl.
And I want also point out again to other fourmites here to my anser in that post to "von Thoma":
Please let us gather first some more basic informations about how the system works.
And honestly, atm I think the system is quite good designed.
Like I overlooked to watch at the prov view for checking the yellow colour. The Devs could have overlooked something too.
And I also had no big issues with the supply system so far. That must be, because of my way of playing and the occupation laws I use. But thats maybe also why the Devs didn't noticed those things so far too. I noticed it recently as I saw some AAR having supply problems. Even next to the capital(3 nodes away, he had supply problems..) So I did some intense testings and find some "odd behaviours" myself. There seem to be some irritating functions in the supply system, and to find out why and where I started this thread.
First I need clear info about what the system is telling me with the colours and indicators, next I'll bring up some things I noticed durig testing.
Also the already given Info form podact showed, that the old manuals wer lacking some info already..
I'm really looking forward to find out. Maybe others have some info to spare too.
And please stay polite and focused on fixing stuff.
Cheers,
Chromos
So I like to requote my not answered question again to get an answer on that:
(From unsanswerd post 6: Please-Devs-explain-the-supply-system-again-for-quot-dummies-quot-like-me..post 6
Hi podcat and thank you for answering that part so quick!
I get it now with the yellow colour being connected to the infra damaged. Forgot to check about that on the prov view. :blush:
But I still get not, why sometimes the colour of the tooltip is red.
I have sometimes red colour while only tranporting less then max possible throughput.
Btw. what is the max amount in 10 lvl infra? I spotted so far ~3k+ supply and 400 fuel as max. Brandenburg next to Berlin is also able of 15k+ supply, but iirc the capital neighbouring provs have no cap, right?
I had red colour with 80 or 2.4 k supply in a 10lvl infra prov.. While sometimes with the same amount all is fine..(No dmg to the prov, background colour also different, green or brown, but mostly with red hatching..)
I could upload a save or show pictures that I took if that is wanted, but that is also easily reproduced imho.
I can also not confirm the info about the red hatching. As I had red hatching in prov with supply received/required way below the mentioned amount in lvl 10 infras.
Sometimes already red hatching with required supply of some ~300..
Please have another look at this an tell us what this is about.
And please give us the max amount of throughput per infra lvl.
And I want also point out again to other fourmites here to my anser in that post to "von Thoma":
Please let us gather first some more basic informations about how the system works.
And honestly, atm I think the system is quite good designed.
Like I overlooked to watch at the prov view for checking the yellow colour. The Devs could have overlooked something too.
And I also had no big issues with the supply system so far. That must be, because of my way of playing and the occupation laws I use. But thats maybe also why the Devs didn't noticed those things so far too. I noticed it recently as I saw some AAR having supply problems. Even next to the capital(3 nodes away, he had supply problems..) So I did some intense testings and find some "odd behaviours" myself. There seem to be some irritating functions in the supply system, and to find out why and where I started this thread.
First I need clear info about what the system is telling me with the colours and indicators, next I'll bring up some things I noticed durig testing.
Also the already given Info form podact showed, that the old manuals wer lacking some info already..
I'm really looking forward to find out. Maybe others have some info to spare too.
And please stay polite and focused on fixing stuff.
Cheers,
Chromos
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Supply throughput?
As the closed beta for the next patch is in full swing, I like to point again to the supply system.
I read about supply distribution algorithm:
Starting with the provinces furthest from the Supply Source, all provinces try to draw the total amount of supplies and fuel required from surrounding provinces, first asking the province(s) closest to the Supply Source. The amount required is the sum of supplies and fuel needed by units in the province and the amount asked for by neighboring provinces.
I understand it basically like that:
- The prov furthest away count the demand of their units and try to get that form their surrounding provs.
- It also sends a request of that amount to the provs around the supply source.
- The next prov now also counts the demand of their units and the demand of surrounding provs and try to get that from their surrounding provs?
- It also sends a request of that combined needed amount to the provs around the supply source..
So the provs around the supply source get the combined need of supply of all provs.
The closer to the supply source the demand of the provs will be also higher as they have the more combined demand from surrounding provs.
There will be a "natural selection" of a main line after some cycles up to the max amount the infra can deliver.
So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..
Another note:
Looking for supply problem solutions I came around some interesting behaviour..
- SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
- STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)
With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
Also the AI should have a very much easier time to stay in supply. You will loose also some more supply if the ai takes provinces with your now bigger supply depots.. And it is no cheat as you still have to produce the higher demand for that bigger supply depot of each unit!
The benefit is, that the supply system now tries all the time to fulfill that much supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.
The lower value for the STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD is needed to help in another "problem"/"design behaviour" with the supply system and the ai using strat redeploy.
Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest unsupplied.
Now the overall Supply Pool is higher, and the redeploying unit is only taking a quarter with it, leaving the other units still in supply and thus not generating a suddenly higher demand..
I did some heavy testing the last days on that topic..
The whole stuff could need more testing, but the above results give already a good working direction..
It is quite a time consuming task, and the more I test it and play around with the different values makes me think, that there is a real need of a slight redesign in this area.
On the other side, seeing alone the big impact of the occupy policy, let me assume that it wont need big changes too..
Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only with high partisan activity through occupation policy(total exploitation)..
While with collaboration the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates..
You could say, well thats what the game mechanic is for. Exploiting the country and raising partisan activity should make you have supply problems.
But well then, if you just tell the game that it should build up bigger supply pools for its units(defines.lua setting), then the suply system is more eager to bring supply to your units.. And is successful in doing so, why does it not spend the same effort before? The partisans are still taking its "tax" on all supply.
It just feels "odd" that if you have enough supply and just can't get it delivered, and if you even raise the demand, then it works..
I really hope that this will help to optimize the supply system further.
As I can mod a solution for me, it is no "big deal", but if it is a hint for an optimisation of the code, I'm also happy.
Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
I really would like to know what the game would like to tell me and why.
Btw. the STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..
Would be really nice if that would work. Would make it much more "right".
Planes could need a higher Org drop for redeploy maybe and ships also a light one..
Please fell free to test the above values in a save with hvy supply problems and try different values and occupy policies.
Let me know if you get the same results. (GER with the '43 scen is a good one for testing.)
I also would like if others have the same results for the red numbers and red hatchings form the post above.
And please stay polite and focus on improving the already working supply system.
Thank you,
Chromos
As the closed beta for the next patch is in full swing, I like to point again to the supply system.
I read about supply distribution algorithm:
Starting with the provinces furthest from the Supply Source, all provinces try to draw the total amount of supplies and fuel required from surrounding provinces, first asking the province(s) closest to the Supply Source. The amount required is the sum of supplies and fuel needed by units in the province and the amount asked for by neighboring provinces.
I understand it basically like that:
- The prov furthest away count the demand of their units and try to get that form their surrounding provs.
- It also sends a request of that amount to the provs around the supply source.
- The next prov now also counts the demand of their units and the demand of surrounding provs and try to get that from their surrounding provs?
- It also sends a request of that combined needed amount to the provs around the supply source..
So the provs around the supply source get the combined need of supply of all provs.
The closer to the supply source the demand of the provs will be also higher as they have the more combined demand from surrounding provs.
There will be a "natural selection" of a main line after some cycles up to the max amount the infra can deliver.
So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..
Another note:
Looking for supply problem solutions I came around some interesting behaviour..
- SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
- STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)
With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
Also the AI should have a very much easier time to stay in supply. You will loose also some more supply if the ai takes provinces with your now bigger supply depots.. And it is no cheat as you still have to produce the higher demand for that bigger supply depot of each unit!
The benefit is, that the supply system now tries all the time to fulfill that much supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.
The lower value for the STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD is needed to help in another "problem"/"design behaviour" with the supply system and the ai using strat redeploy.
Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest unsupplied.
Now the overall Supply Pool is higher, and the redeploying unit is only taking a quarter with it, leaving the other units still in supply and thus not generating a suddenly higher demand..
I did some heavy testing the last days on that topic..
The whole stuff could need more testing, but the above results give already a good working direction..
It is quite a time consuming task, and the more I test it and play around with the different values makes me think, that there is a real need of a slight redesign in this area.
On the other side, seeing alone the big impact of the occupy policy, let me assume that it wont need big changes too..
Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only with high partisan activity through occupation policy(total exploitation)..
While with collaboration the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates..
You could say, well thats what the game mechanic is for. Exploiting the country and raising partisan activity should make you have supply problems.
But well then, if you just tell the game that it should build up bigger supply pools for its units(defines.lua setting), then the suply system is more eager to bring supply to your units.. And is successful in doing so, why does it not spend the same effort before? The partisans are still taking its "tax" on all supply.
It just feels "odd" that if you have enough supply and just can't get it delivered, and if you even raise the demand, then it works..
I really hope that this will help to optimize the supply system further.
As I can mod a solution for me, it is no "big deal", but if it is a hint for an optimisation of the code, I'm also happy.
Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
I really would like to know what the game would like to tell me and why.
Btw. the STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..
Would be really nice if that would work. Would make it much more "right".
Planes could need a higher Org drop for redeploy maybe and ships also a light one..
Please fell free to test the above values in a save with hvy supply problems and try different values and occupy policies.
Let me know if you get the same results. (GER with the '43 scen is a good one for testing.)
I also would like if others have the same results for the red numbers and red hatchings form the post above.
And please stay polite and focus on improving the already working supply system.
Thank you,
Chromos
I am a little shocked that raising the supply depot to 80 days worth had that much impact. I would have expected that it would ironed out some of the rough edges, but your results are far and above what I could have anticipated.
There is a problem with setting it that high, though. It also means that amphibious invasions land with 80 days of supply. I can see that being open to abuse.
I like your suggestions regarding spreading the supply requests and route of supplies. The system can always be improved.
I don't like changing the way SR interacts with supply. I WANT strategic redeployment to cost something extra, otherwise it becomes too easy to abuse (attack delay is not enough).
I do wonder, though, what would happen to the game if supplying units became easier (due to optimizations you suggest). With all its quirks, I'm comfortable with the current ability to supply troops. Invading Indochina with 30 MECH divisions is silly, but even the Soviets can have supply problems west of Berlin if they load up Europe's infrastructure with too much HARM.
There is a problem with setting it that high, though. It also means that amphibious invasions land with 80 days of supply. I can see that being open to abuse.
I like your suggestions regarding spreading the supply requests and route of supplies. The system can always be improved.
I don't like changing the way SR interacts with supply. I WANT strategic redeployment to cost something extra, otherwise it becomes too easy to abuse (attack delay is not enough).
I do wonder, though, what would happen to the game if supplying units became easier (due to optimizations you suggest). With all its quirks, I'm comfortable with the current ability to supply troops. Invading Indochina with 30 MECH divisions is silly, but even the Soviets can have supply problems west of Berlin if they load up Europe's infrastructure with too much HARM.
P.S. I hope everyone realizes that the FIRST dev diary PI does for HoI 4 will be about supply.
Are you kidding, there will never be a DEV diary about supply as it'll immediately be accused of not working correctly
Chromos A+ as always
I cannot speak for everyone, but for myself the lack of control over supply is really the number one irritant.
I am not so sure I could use the word 'rational' either. I mean the whole idea of one allied province starving out an entire army is not... well, not rational. Also the whole 'invisible supply network and secret trades of unknown amounts of supplies and fuel into cloaked allied supply networks' is sitting right next to Schrödinger's cat. It just doesn't make any sense.
Hi Darkrenown,... I love this game, as other do, becuase of its complexity. But on this front, (this won't make sense initially), I think the confusion caused by the complexity needs to be more complex.
Everything works as far as I'm concerned, except for one silly thing... Supply prioritization. Becuase you may have so many units overall, it seems that when people focus on specific fronts they get confused as to why they may be out of supply. It seems as though WAD means that supplies are distributed evenly to all forces, and thus the outlying ones, and most important advancing forces, are at the detriment of both overall force pool and distance from the capital. Now, I'm not totally sure about this, but I will ask now.
Is supply tied to theatre stance at all? For instance, is there a way for us to dictate that western France on defense in 1942 will only get 30% of normal supply throughput so that we can effectively have more units supplied on the eastern front?
I believe in the example you were responding to, the players military is overal much too large, but maybe not where it is he is looking at specifically. And thus the confusion between attacker/defender situations not seeming to be even.
I have mentioned this before in other threads, with never a response (maybe its stupid?)... But, there were games called V for Victory. A hex based, turn game. In it the overall supply could be divided between HQ's thus giving attacking forces, or critically overwhelmed defending forces additional supplies at the expense of other fronts. It was a neat idea, added to the game, and gave a lot more control to the player.
Is this something that could maybe help in the next chapter of HOI3?
Sorry chromos for the hijack
The more I play the game the more I see terrible flaws in the supply system. Of course there is no problem with defeating AI so AI cheating is ok as far as I am concerned.
The problems become serious when you have vast overseas territories, cooperate with other human allies in distant areas etc. Supply system design can easily ruin whole operations, for example because the place of origin of supplies is set very badly.
The situation gets worse in late games because the game mechanics is obviously designed for dumb AI production, not for a human who can build so many units that supply system cannot handle it. That is why we see such nonsense like "have no airforce in russia to win in Russia". Cost of units and buildings is simply too low in vanilla game in also in most mods so that building militia is a waste even for SU. Every major ends up building loads of airforce due to low manpower, so many of them that they cannot even be properly used because of stacking limit.
The major overhaul of the system is not exactly probable so my advice is - make sure that there are less units in the game. Either decrease global IC and resources or play mods which increase cost of units. The game becomes far less illogical and far more fun when you do this. With lesser IC you also get rid of the nonsensical 99k cap of resources which is usually a decisive factor in vanilla MP games so you need a human minor axis for example to stash your resources in his stockpiles for later use. WTF? Stashing resources in your allies dramatically increases your chances of victory in MP? :rofl:
So again - less units, less IC, more expensive factories, less resources, higher practical decay or any similar tweaking and the game gets MUCH more playable, without absurd situations.
The real problem is not the supply system. It is working quite good. The real problem behind this is a REALLY terrible production/manpower global balance which is much worse than in HoI1 and HoI2. No more dilemmas in production optimization, choosing production obsolete units and upgrading them over building new units with higher cost etc. When you lose divs the only real loss in manpower in them, not IC. Units are easily replaced by new ones because everything in vanilla is incredibly cheap so that you literally don't know what to do with your production after a few years because you either do not have manpower or infra to support them.
This serious imbalance not only ruins many strategic decisions usual in previous games in the series so the experience feels more flat and straightforward. It also ruins the supply system which is not designed to cope with so many units on the map. Personally, I always try to do my best in production planning etc. so I usually reach "natural" limits in vanilla and most mods. Since I started to play AS mod I cannot play any version of HoI3 any more because it seems ridiculous. Hopefully, the new HPP will be fully compatible with FtM soon as well.
The problems become serious when you have vast overseas territories, cooperate with other human allies in distant areas etc. Supply system design can easily ruin whole operations, for example because the place of origin of supplies is set very badly.
The situation gets worse in late games because the game mechanics is obviously designed for dumb AI production, not for a human who can build so many units that supply system cannot handle it. That is why we see such nonsense like "have no airforce in russia to win in Russia". Cost of units and buildings is simply too low in vanilla game in also in most mods so that building militia is a waste even for SU. Every major ends up building loads of airforce due to low manpower, so many of them that they cannot even be properly used because of stacking limit.
The major overhaul of the system is not exactly probable so my advice is - make sure that there are less units in the game. Either decrease global IC and resources or play mods which increase cost of units. The game becomes far less illogical and far more fun when you do this. With lesser IC you also get rid of the nonsensical 99k cap of resources which is usually a decisive factor in vanilla MP games so you need a human minor axis for example to stash your resources in his stockpiles for later use. WTF? Stashing resources in your allies dramatically increases your chances of victory in MP? :rofl:
So again - less units, less IC, more expensive factories, less resources, higher practical decay or any similar tweaking and the game gets MUCH more playable, without absurd situations.
The real problem is not the supply system. It is working quite good. The real problem behind this is a REALLY terrible production/manpower global balance which is much worse than in HoI1 and HoI2. No more dilemmas in production optimization, choosing production obsolete units and upgrading them over building new units with higher cost etc. When you lose divs the only real loss in manpower in them, not IC. Units are easily replaced by new ones because everything in vanilla is incredibly cheap so that you literally don't know what to do with your production after a few years because you either do not have manpower or infra to support them.
This serious imbalance not only ruins many strategic decisions usual in previous games in the series so the experience feels more flat and straightforward. It also ruins the supply system which is not designed to cope with so many units on the map. Personally, I always try to do my best in production planning etc. so I usually reach "natural" limits in vanilla and most mods. Since I started to play AS mod I cannot play any version of HoI3 any more because it seems ridiculous. Hopefully, the new HPP will be fully compatible with FtM soon as well.
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To clear something up... Is Total Exploitation or Collaboration government better for supply when invading Russia? I was confused on that.
Collaboration is better as you have lower negative hits on your supply thoroughput and lower partisan levels, ergo more supplies hitting the front.
Edit
Total Exploitation gives you more IC and resources but higher revolt risk and Collaboration is the opposite, lower IC / Res and lower revolt
The higher the revolt risk the more it "costs" to ship supplies through
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The partisan effect on logistics is almost always worse than the IC and resources gained from total exploitation. It's cheaper overall to just run collaboration. Since manpower and leadership are also premium resources, collaboration serves an important purpose there, too.
I am still trying to figure out why my single Militia brigade in Boston keeps getting supply
problems from 1936-9. You'd figure there were enough Boston baked beans and lobster
to feed em.....:blink: LOL!
problems from 1936-9. You'd figure there were enough Boston baked beans and lobster
to feed em.....:blink: LOL!
If Boston is shipping supplies overseas, what may be happening is that Boston can only ship in so many supplies and fuel by land and is sending 100% of them overseas, leaving none for the MIL.
I like to sumarize my post above and some feedback to the other posts since then:
More info about it in Post 28
Point 1:
So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..
Point 2:
- SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
- STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)
With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
The supply system now tries much more to fulfill the supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.
Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest often unsupplied and then generating a high demand on supplies in the prov it left.
Point 3:
Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only when used the occupation policy "total exploitation".
While with occupation policy "collaboration" the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates. Also the delivering of supply does work much better.
Point 4:
Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
More info that it does not work as intended in Post 27
Point 5:
The STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..
Point 6:
Let the extra supply that is needed for Strat Redeploy taken from the main supply depot and not from the leaving prov would help the overall sypply system maybe a lot.
Also it would be more right in simulation the needed amount for the tranportation system. (Drawn from the main supply source and not from the fronline provinces..)
Point 7:
A new button for diable supply, like disable reinforcement/upgrades would be cool!
So we could set at HQ-lvl that some fronts won't demand supply while others would be priorized.
The current priorize button would also priorize the supply then.
So we would have an some sort of "offensive operations" button.
Enough space is there if we adjust the buttons to the left a bit.
@Secret Master
The effects you describes are there, but are not that bad.
In fact it helps the ai a lot in doing amphibious invasions with more supply in their own units depots.
And the ai would invade with that much mechs/tanks anyway if it has it at hands.
So it helps to let them use it some more before it fails because of not being abel to secure more ports and get in more other units. After the own supply is used, the port still would have to deliver all neded supply for all units, and because the need is higher it wil deliver more steadily.
In humans vs. human a player has a little benfit too. But here also the other humman is quite more capabe to defend a landing anyway.
We could buff the encircle malus a bit on the other side.
And I agree that the SR should costs something. It seems that the double need is designed for exactly that. I proposed above in point 6 a solution that could improve the overall situation.
Because when the supply is drawn out of the leaving prov, the supply system gets an suddenly high demand often in that prov and puts additional burden on the supply system. That also leads to bad situations for the ai.
With my proposed changes, the supply has still to be produced, the units are overall better supplied, even with a "bad" occupation policy. But the tax on the supply is also higher as more flows steadily, and thus cost you more ic in the long run. And that is quite what I would expect, that it should cost me more ic because of partisans etc..
We'll still have supply problems though with big armies and/or bad infra..
In an AAR a player is playing with that changes, and he still has major supply problems, because he has huge(!) armies to be supplied in bad infra. He has to wait to supply system catches up fro the damaged frontlines(even fighting in his own country-SU). But now the overall situation looks quite more realistic/expectable.
After all, the numbers above could be tewaked some more. I just used them, as with them you could be sure to get the decribed engine behaviour.
@Wunderlicht
I put your ideas about supply priorisation in point 7.
The described solution there could be implemented maybe easyly and would cover all the points you mentioned.
I still hope the Devs will comment on those proposals and the question about the red hatchings.
Cheers,
Chromos
More info about it in Post 28
Point 1:
So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..
Point 2:
- SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
- STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)
With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
The supply system now tries much more to fulfill the supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.
Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest often unsupplied and then generating a high demand on supplies in the prov it left.
Point 3:
Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only when used the occupation policy "total exploitation".
While with occupation policy "collaboration" the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates. Also the delivering of supply does work much better.
Point 4:
Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
More info that it does not work as intended in Post 27
Point 5:
The STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..
Point 6:
Let the extra supply that is needed for Strat Redeploy taken from the main supply depot and not from the leaving prov would help the overall sypply system maybe a lot.
Also it would be more right in simulation the needed amount for the tranportation system. (Drawn from the main supply source and not from the fronline provinces..)
Point 7:
A new button for diable supply, like disable reinforcement/upgrades would be cool!
So we could set at HQ-lvl that some fronts won't demand supply while others would be priorized.
The current priorize button would also priorize the supply then.
So we would have an some sort of "offensive operations" button.
Enough space is there if we adjust the buttons to the left a bit.
@Secret Master
The effects you describes are there, but are not that bad.
In fact it helps the ai a lot in doing amphibious invasions with more supply in their own units depots.
And the ai would invade with that much mechs/tanks anyway if it has it at hands.
So it helps to let them use it some more before it fails because of not being abel to secure more ports and get in more other units. After the own supply is used, the port still would have to deliver all neded supply for all units, and because the need is higher it wil deliver more steadily.
In humans vs. human a player has a little benfit too. But here also the other humman is quite more capabe to defend a landing anyway.
We could buff the encircle malus a bit on the other side.
And I agree that the SR should costs something. It seems that the double need is designed for exactly that. I proposed above in point 6 a solution that could improve the overall situation.
Because when the supply is drawn out of the leaving prov, the supply system gets an suddenly high demand often in that prov and puts additional burden on the supply system. That also leads to bad situations for the ai.
With my proposed changes, the supply has still to be produced, the units are overall better supplied, even with a "bad" occupation policy. But the tax on the supply is also higher as more flows steadily, and thus cost you more ic in the long run. And that is quite what I would expect, that it should cost me more ic because of partisans etc..
We'll still have supply problems though with big armies and/or bad infra..
In an AAR a player is playing with that changes, and he still has major supply problems, because he has huge(!) armies to be supplied in bad infra. He has to wait to supply system catches up fro the damaged frontlines(even fighting in his own country-SU). But now the overall situation looks quite more realistic/expectable.
After all, the numbers above could be tewaked some more. I just used them, as with them you could be sure to get the decribed engine behaviour.
@Wunderlicht
I put your ideas about supply priorisation in point 7.
The described solution there could be implemented maybe easyly and would cover all the points you mentioned.
I still hope the Devs will comment on those proposals and the question about the red hatchings.
Cheers,
Chromos