Orbital Bombardment and Terraforming - Too weak, too limited

[JulienJaden]

Strange that nothing on this is in the Suggestions section...

At any rate, orbital bombardment, even on "full", is way underpowered. Either I'm commanding ships with weapons so weak I should have all my scientists executed or orbital bombardment should be rebalanced, at the very least. If a fleet ot 100 ships keeps launching anti-matter missiles and railgun projectiles at the city centers of an inhabited world, it's not gonna be exactly inhabited after a few weeks (or days, rather). After a couple of months, it would probably be completely uninhabitable (from reduced habitability [temporary? permanent?] to turning it into a barren/tomb world).

And that is exactly what's missing here: Even on full bombardment, it feels like they're not doing anything. Maybe the Blorg are content with a lightshow but I am not. If I wanna purge an entire world's population from space because I'm playing an empire of evil xenophobes, then I should be able to do that.
A reputation his

Stellaris is all about playing the empire you want, after all, right?

So, in that spirit, I'd also like to suggest other options of violently interacting with planet populations, like releasing a virus or completely destroying a planet (or at least its surface). It's really basic stuff for a space game of this scale.


As for terraforming, I don't understand why you shouldn't be able to terraform a planet while people live there. If I don't care that a 'primitive' species lives on a planet and I want to drown them as I turn their beloved tundra into an ocean world, that should be up to me.

Spore, regardless of all the issues it had, got that thing right: Rapid, artificially-induced climate changes can indeed be a weapon of mass destruction. And I hope you guys will add these things soon because it seems like a huge oversight not to include at least some of this.

 

[grommile]

Paradox are very, very reluctant to touch the subject of genocide.

 

[BrokenSky]

What I don't get is how the galaxy got so empty? As I understand it the idea is that you're playing as just one turn of a wheel of empire birth and death which has been going on for a long time. On the other hand it is impossible for me to clear the galaxy of other empires and them wait, watching over the newly burned field of stars for new life to slowly become sentient. And by watch I mean forcibly genetically engineer presentients to be sentient, then stand back and observe their bronze age civilization, as they eventually become space age and fight with one another and try to overthrow me. (By this point I AM the fallen empire). Surely someone must have done something like that in the past; why can't I do it now?

 

[Leonick]

Paradox are very, very reluctant to touch the subject of genocide.

They are? We can already systematically kill of pops (purge), what is that if not genocide?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be able to do it from orbit. Just add a new probably relatively expensive war goal to eradicate a planet's pop. It's what I'd expect fanatical purififers to do to me and frankly it's how I'd like to take care of them sometimes...

 

[TheInvadinator]

It's because of Warscore. Paradox don't want you wiping out an empire of just about any size in a single war. Vassalizing and integrating can take a very long time, much longer than mass assembling colony ships. Though I feel like this could be alleviated as simple as some balance and concept changing. Change all bombing types to do 0.4 to fortifications per day, but massively ramp up population, building, and blocker damage for the other two. Restyle them as "Military" (small chance of civilian population collateral), "Population" (moderate chance of killing civilians, destroying buildings), and "Ecosystem" (almost guaranteed to kill civilians and buildings, high chance to create blockers) instead of "Light", "Limited", and "Full". Also, have every destroyed colony add double its usual value to Threat. If you try to genocide someone like that, the whole galaxy will take notice. And if you can fight the whole galaxy successfully... well... you earned it.

Actually... I'm going to look into making that a mod, at least. I am a little disappointed with bombing efficacy.

 

[grommile]

They are? We can already systematically kill of pops (purge), what is that if not genocide?

Yes, they are. As far as I can remember, the Purge button is pretty much the first unambiguous genocide mechanic in a Paradox game. (Vicky 2 contains some scripted instances of ethnic cleansing, and you can argue the toss about the razing mechanic for EU4 steppe nomads.)

This is pretty remarkable for a space 4X game, really.

 

[Senior Tigr]

I think that orbital bombardment as an alternative to pop purging the conquered planet will be too powerful. However it may be balanced by a big enough chance that the planet will turn into a tomb world (say 25%) and greatly reduced habitability (at least -50%) for some time (up to 25 years) with additional permanent reduced habitability (-5/-10%).

It would be also a big diplomatic relations hit, some coalitions may be formed and I think that some Fallen Empires may think that deserves an intervention.

 

[BrokenSky]

Yes, they are. As far as I can remember, the Purge button is pretty much the first unambiguous genocide mechanic in a Paradox game. (Vicky 2 contains some scripted instances of ethnic cleansing, and you can argue the toss about the razing mechanic for EU4 steppe nomads.)

This is pretty remarkable for a space 4X game, really.

Or CK2, where razing a province to the ground instantly makes it your culture and religion.

 

[JulienJaden]

It's because of Warscore. Paradox don't want you wiping out an empire of just about any size in a single war. Vassalizing and integrating can take a very long time, much longer than mass assembling colony ships. Though I feel like this could be alleviated as simple as some balance and concept changing. Change all bombing types to do 0.4 to fortifications per day, but massively ramp up population, building, and blocker damage for the other two. Restyle them as "Military" (small chance of civilian population collateral), "Population" (moderate chance of killing civilians, destroying buildings), and "Ecosystem" (almost guaranteed to kill civilians and buildings, high chance to create blockers) instead of "Light", "Limited", and "Full". Also, have every destroyed colony add double its usual value to Threat. If you try to genocide someone like that, the whole galaxy will take notice. And if you can fight the whole galaxy successfully... well... you earned it.

Actually... I'm going to look into making that a mod, at least. I am a little disappointed with bombing efficacy.

But that's just it - they wouldn't have to make it the simpler or more convenient alternative; quite the contrary, actually.

An orbital bombardment capable of eliminating all sentient life on a planet would be pretty much guaranteed to damage the planet's ecosystem and climate so much it would turn into a nuclear wasteland or, at the very least, a frozen ball in space. In other words: If you decided to kill the entire population of a planet you want to settle yourself, you would either have to be very patient (if we're very optimistic, it would take 50 to 100 years for Earth to recover from a nuclear war - probably much longer, but the game could go for the optimistic variant) or spend a whole bunch of resources on terraforming it back into a habitable world. Either way, it would certainly not be as simple as clearing out the old inhabitants and sending in your own colony ship.

For the late-game, they could implement something like super-aggressive virus that kills the population with little to no damage to even the infrastructure and/or something to destroy a planet - in itself, that would be REALLY powerful but 1) at that point, you're a powerful empire ruling over a significant chunk of galaxy anyway, and 2) to balance it out, that kind of weapon could have a huge impact on your reputation and maybe it's even dangerous to your own population, so using it is risky.

My point is: Gameplay- and balance-wise, it's not even remotely challenging to implement this into the game while observing the current game mechanics, but it would make a huge difference for the game can be played, particularly for the isolationist, aggressive races.

 

[Jonlissla]

This is pretty remarkable for a space 4X game, really.

You can actually do the same in Distant Worlds as well as The Last Federation.

Genocide is not politcally correct but it sure is fun.

 

[BrokenSky]

But that's just it - they wouldn't have to make it the simpler or more convenient alternative; quite the contrary, actually.

An orbital bombardment capable of eliminating all sentient life on a planet would be pretty much guaranteed to damage the planet's ecosystem and climate so much it would turn into a nuclear wasteland or, at the very least, a frozen ball in space. In other words: If you decided to kill the entire population of a planet you want to settle yourself, you would either have to be very patient (if we're very optimistic, it would take 50 to 100 years for Earth to recover from a nuclear war - probably much longer, but the game could go for the optimistic variant) or spend a whole bunch of resources on terraforming it back into a habitable world. Either way, it would certainly not be as simple as clearing out the old inhabitants and sending in your own colony ship.

For the late-game, they could implement something like super-aggressive virus that kills the population with little to no damage to even the infrastructure and/or something to destroy a planet - in itself, that would be REALLY powerful but 1) at that point, you're a powerful empire ruling over a significant chunk of galaxy anyway, and 2) to balance it out, that kind of weapon could have a huge impact on your reputation and maybe it's even dangerous to your own population, so using it is risky.

My point is: Gameplay- and balance-wise, it's not even remotely challenging to implement this into the game while observing the current game mechanics, but it would make a huge difference for the game can be played, particularly for the isolationist, aggressive races.

I agree that there should be some way to depopulate planets but I think a wargoal would be better. Basically you get to demand that same thing fallen empires do, with the plus that the planet becomes uninhabitable while there is a truce. This would be a diplomatic thing though, not a physical impossibility. Also maybe the pops from depopulated planets (both from this and from Fallen empires) should have a chance to be redistributed throughout your empire?

 

[grommile]

You can actually do the same in Distant Worlds as well as The Last Federation.

Genocide is not politcally correct but it sure is fun.

That was kind of my point? It's remarkable for the option to commit genocide to be so limited in space 4x games.

 

[keynes2.0]

The planets have defenses against orbital bombardment. If you were bombarding primitives sure you could genocide them in a week. Spaceflight races aren't defenseless like that.

 

[JulienJaden]

The planets have defenses against orbital bombardment. If you were bombarding primitives sure you could genocide them in a week. Spaceflight races aren't defenseless like that.

I think you drastically overestimate their/our ability to hide from what are essentially the End Days.

If a meteor big enough to wipe out the human race were to crash into Earth tomorrow, the best we could do would be hiding in metro stations, mine shafts and a few missile bases. Even the best-equipped survival shelters for cases like this only stock food for a few years. And these places I described are few and far between, so at least 95% of the human population would die pretty damn quickly while the rest are only staving off the virtually inevitable for a few years.

A space-faring race couldn't really do much more than build a few more shelters and perhaps erect some shields to dampen the initial blow but with the exception of small facilities in mountains with super-powerful generators and subterranean greenhouses, none of that is gonna protect the inhabitants for long, and, again, 95% of everybody on the planet would still die because not even Mole-People would build enough shelters for everybody.

So, no, we (i.e. primitive races) and spaceflight races are both essentially defenseless, given a little time. Should it take longer for high-tech race to be wiped the face of a planet? Yes, absolutely. But they should perish all the same after a few years of bombardment because that's what would happen to anyone.

 

[keynes2.0]

I think you drastically overestimate their/our ability to hide from what are essentially the End Days.

This is a science fiction where people fly around faster then the speed of light in spaceships with energy shields and have power generation capacity that massively violate the laws of energy, entropy and enthalpy. You shouldn't think the defenders should obey these laws when the attackers aren't.

 

[JulienJaden]

This is a science fiction where people fly around faster then the speed of light in spaceships with energy shields and have power generation capacity that massively violate the laws of energy, entropy and enthalpy. You shouldn't think the defenders should obey these laws when the attackers aren't.

There's a world of difference between bending the rules of physics and an unsolvable paradox:
The only way the entire population of a planet could ever hope to survive orbital bombardment would be if not a single missile, projectile or laser ever reached the surface, otherwise the vast majority would die, period.
However, since orbital bombardment is currently required to destroy fortifications ON the planet (bunkers, military installations, everything that's firmly on the ground since everything in orbit would have been destroyed by the fleet already anyway), it's a given that these weapons are not deflected by some shield too powerful too breach - a shield would merely dampen the initial blow.

It is a science fiction where futuristic and partially impossible phenomenon are vital to the suspension of disbelief - no spacetravel without warp/hyperspace/wormholes - but it is still very much subject to basic logic, actually even more so than other fiction because it has to 'prove' that it works and that, within its set of rules for our imagination, it works flawlessly.

So, my point stands: The overwhelming majority of planet dwellers would die, most of the others would soon after, and their technology wouldn't save them from that.