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You are a more patient man than I. And kudos on beating up on John Smith and his 666 freaks.
Olaus Petrus [1]: Yeah, I've never been too good at this... besides, England hasn't had enough time to recover from 1429 yet.
JimboIX [1]: Now now, it's not his fault he's insane... entirely...
Tskb18: Actually, one of my first thoughts upon introducing La Pucelle into this AAR was the possibility that Aye might show up and I might never hear the end of it. Fortunately, that problem has yet to occur, so I'm safe for now. *whew*
Kurt_Steiner [1]: Yes... a 30 year long civil war...
Olaus Petrus [2]: It's not that much trouble. It only takes an hour or so.
Saulta: (see above)
JimboIX Bah, that wasn't difficult in the least.
Kurt_Steiner [2]: Grow up to be like me? I'm only 19 (well, okay, tomorrow I'll be 20, but that's a minor point), you can't be much younger than that!
JimboIX [1]: Now now, it's not his fault he's insane... entirely...
Tskb18: Actually, one of my first thoughts upon introducing La Pucelle into this AAR was the possibility that Aye might show up and I might never hear the end of it. Fortunately, that problem has yet to occur, so I'm safe for now. *whew*
Kurt_Steiner [1]: Yes... a 30 year long civil war...
Olaus Petrus [2]: It's not that much trouble. It only takes an hour or so.
Saulta: (see above)
JimboIX Bah, that wasn't difficult in the least.
Kurt_Steiner [2]: Grow up to be like me? I'm only 19 (well, okay, tomorrow I'll be 20, but that's a minor point), you can't be much younger than that!
I've been Canonized!*
Those of you who are familiar with canonized's massive Timeline's: What if Spain Failed to Control the World? know that he has a weekly feature (to go along with the great writing) where he interviews one of his readers. This week it was me. You can find the interview here.
__________
*I'm fairly certain that the real Judas Maccabeus is a saint already, but let's not split hairs.
Saulta: And thanks afterwards.
stnylan: Yeah, I probably could have handled some things better...
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Incidental music:
Felix Mendelssohn -- Symphony no. 3 ("Scottish") -- 2nd movement
The Wars of the Roses were not properly one single conflict (thus the plural), but a series of fights, concerning many different subjects, but all connected to a struggle for control of the power in England. It would be inaccurate to say that it began as a dynastic struggle between Ioan's house of Wales and Robert's house of Cornwall; although that did have a major effect on the later course and ultimate effect of the conflict, at first Robert had nothing more in mind than to dominate the current king.
The immediate trigger of trouble was a sudden burst of mental illness out of King Ioan. There had been only a few scattered signs of potential difficuly up to that point, but the combined effect of losing France, the complex politics of the time, and the immediate trigger of the defeat at Rohrheim put Ioan into a catatonic state. So sudden was the attack that a power vacuum appeared, taken by Edmund Beaufort, the Duke of Somerset. An earlier feud between the Percy and Neville families had created definite battle lines, with Somerset and Margaret on the Percy side, and Cornwall on the Neville side (along with, of course, Warwick himself).
Warwick, stuck in Germany, wanted to bring his army back to England to challenge Somerset. He met with the most important men of his army, and all agreed that such a course needed to be taken. However, the Palatine army was still in the way. Warwick determined to break through or die trying, and in late January advanced back to the Rhine. The enemy had already crossed back in order to counter a French threat, and with the English having gained naval superiority on the river Warwick was able to cross without difficulty. By 13 February he had swept aside what few soldiers of the Palatinate he could find, and could march into French territory. A peace was concluded with them, and the French allowed Warwick to march to Calais, hoping he could ensure peace in England.
Somerset had other ideas. He gained the support of the Scottish dukes of Moray, Albany, and Argyll, bringing a Scottish army into the Lowlands. Meanwhile, several Scottish ships moved to the English Channel in order to prevent Warwick from coming into England. Off Calais, a truly odd naval battle erupted: Parts of the French navy, what few ships Warwick could steal from the Calais harbor, and some ships loyal to the Duke of Cornwall all clashed with Scottish ships and a few elements of Ioan's fleet. The Scots were quickly dealt with, and on 19 October 1455 Warwick disembarked at Hastings.
A medieval naval battle in the English Channel
Although Somerset, panicked, attempted to gather as many men as he could quickly, Warwick was already in London before he could do anything. By the time Somerset appeared at St. Albans, a day's march north of London, he was horribly outnumbered and Ioan was in Warwick's (and by extension, Cornwall's) hands. Instead, he fled north and joined the Scottish army outside Glasgow.
That city was under siege and threatening to fall. The winter prevented any campaign in 1455, but after gathering a few thousand more men (25,500 in all), he met 15,000 Scots at Galston on 13 April 1456. This was the first true battle in the Wars of the Roses, and the Cornwallists had an easy victory. Warwick found a weak point in the Scottish line, and in fact most of his opponents were not even ready for battle. Somerset himself was killed in the chaos, and the Scots fled towards Inverness.
There Cornwall played his trump card. At Drogheda he had earlier convened the Irish Parliament, and gained their support for his cause by making several concessions. How much he intended to go through with this is unknown, but a sizeable Irish army had already disembarked in Scotland and cut off the retreating enemy. After another year of sieges throughout the region, the dukes of Argyll and Albany were defeated, leaving only Moray and the most distant parts of the Highlands.
These would be more difficult to take. In June, Warwick led 16,000 men into the Highlands to fight a mere 10,000 Scots. However, they had the advantage of the terrain, and Warwick was sent back with many casualties. It took several months for a second army to arrive and drive Warwick's army up to 19,000 and he attacked yet again. Finally, on 17 November 1457, the Scottish army was fully defeated.
It would take another one and a half years to break the power of the Duke of Moray. The region was granted to James Borkalan, the Duke of Lothian, making him by far one of the most important dukes of England (and a supporter of the Cornwall side). With the north secured, Warwick prepared to march south.
This was when things fell apart for the Cornwallists. Before Warwick could arrive, the new Duke of Somerset, son of the old one, conspired with Margaret d'Anjou to retake London. Most of Warwick's army defected with Sir Andrew Trollope and met with the Welsh army at Ludford Bridge. The Cornwallists were forced to flee to Ireland and come up with a new strategy.
Robert's strategy was to completely change the nature of the war. Instead of being a fight for control of an advisory position, Robert found an excuse to be rid of Ioan entirely: he noted that none of the kings from Dewi on had been offically chosen by the Privy Council, who theoretically had to approve succession. Robert quickly found enough Councillors floating around to make a legal meeting and had them state that the Welsh line of the de Cornouailles should not inherit. Armed with this, he intended to gather a new army, march into London, and have Parliament work out a succession.
The first part worked beautifully. 12,000 Cornwallists landed in Wales on 1 October 1460. It took nearly two months for their opposition to appear, in the form of 18,000 royal soldiers under the command of none other than Margaret d'Anjou herself (with the aid of the younger Somerset, of course). Robert had plenty of a chance to defeat Margaret's army, but he acted too impetuously. The Cornwallist army was smashed at the Battle of Monmouth on 29 November 1460, Robert himself kmortally wounded (he would die on 13 December) along with his second son Edmund. The new leader of the House of Cornwall, Edward, fled back to Ireland along with Warwick.
The 13th century Monnow Bridge at Monmouth
This was by no means the end of things. Edward quickly came back to England and managed to find another 12,000 men to support the Cornwallist cause. Margaret, in response, found 17,500 men and ordered Young Somerset to march north to Nottingham. He did, but soon found that Edward had outmaneuvered him, and stood between him and London. Edward had less intention of seizing the city immediately, however, but instead wanted to pull the Welsh army into a poor position and destroy it. Somerset had advanced as far as Colston, 10 km southeast of Nottingham, when Edward struck.
He did so at the best possible time, when Margaret's army was halfway across a stream. Edward's apparent plan was to defeat the part on his side and then attempt to break across the bridge in order to reach the rest. What worried Margaret and Young Somerset was that only 9,000 Cornwallists appeared immediately. Where were the rest?
That would be answered a short time into the battle. Just as Edward began to break through the main line, the other 3,000 of his men found the stream fordable and appeared on the other side. They were outnumbered, but Margaret had sent 3,000 of her own to the north in order to try and see if the missing Cornwallists were in that direction, thus evening the odds somewhat. The first line sent to defeat them was smashed, and Edward had completed dealing with his side of the river. He himself charged across the bridge with a few hundred of his men, but again he began to send men across the stream itself.
Although they were disorganized, what was left of Margaret's army was worn out and unsure where to go. Outflanked and having to deal with their own fleeing men getting in the way, Edward charged in and broke them. The indefagitable Duke of Cornwall was constantly in battle, joining fresh units when the ones he had been leading wore out. Maragret's army was scattered to the winds, she herself managing to make her escape with her disabled husband but unable to get more supporters at the time.
The Battle of Colston. Each line is c. 1,000 men.
Edward simply marched south to London, and on 5 March 1471 Parliament deposed Ioan and made Edward King of England. For the time he was secure in his position, although his enemies still existed to be a potential problem.
stnylan: Yeah, I probably could have handled some things better...
- - - - - - - -
Incidental music:
Felix Mendelssohn -- Symphony no. 3 ("Scottish") -- 2nd movement
The Wars of the Roses were not properly one single conflict (thus the plural), but a series of fights, concerning many different subjects, but all connected to a struggle for control of the power in England. It would be inaccurate to say that it began as a dynastic struggle between Ioan's house of Wales and Robert's house of Cornwall; although that did have a major effect on the later course and ultimate effect of the conflict, at first Robert had nothing more in mind than to dominate the current king.
The immediate trigger of trouble was a sudden burst of mental illness out of King Ioan. There had been only a few scattered signs of potential difficuly up to that point, but the combined effect of losing France, the complex politics of the time, and the immediate trigger of the defeat at Rohrheim put Ioan into a catatonic state. So sudden was the attack that a power vacuum appeared, taken by Edmund Beaufort, the Duke of Somerset. An earlier feud between the Percy and Neville families had created definite battle lines, with Somerset and Margaret on the Percy side, and Cornwall on the Neville side (along with, of course, Warwick himself).
Warwick, stuck in Germany, wanted to bring his army back to England to challenge Somerset. He met with the most important men of his army, and all agreed that such a course needed to be taken. However, the Palatine army was still in the way. Warwick determined to break through or die trying, and in late January advanced back to the Rhine. The enemy had already crossed back in order to counter a French threat, and with the English having gained naval superiority on the river Warwick was able to cross without difficulty. By 13 February he had swept aside what few soldiers of the Palatinate he could find, and could march into French territory. A peace was concluded with them, and the French allowed Warwick to march to Calais, hoping he could ensure peace in England.
Somerset had other ideas. He gained the support of the Scottish dukes of Moray, Albany, and Argyll, bringing a Scottish army into the Lowlands. Meanwhile, several Scottish ships moved to the English Channel in order to prevent Warwick from coming into England. Off Calais, a truly odd naval battle erupted: Parts of the French navy, what few ships Warwick could steal from the Calais harbor, and some ships loyal to the Duke of Cornwall all clashed with Scottish ships and a few elements of Ioan's fleet. The Scots were quickly dealt with, and on 19 October 1455 Warwick disembarked at Hastings.
A medieval naval battle in the English Channel
Although Somerset, panicked, attempted to gather as many men as he could quickly, Warwick was already in London before he could do anything. By the time Somerset appeared at St. Albans, a day's march north of London, he was horribly outnumbered and Ioan was in Warwick's (and by extension, Cornwall's) hands. Instead, he fled north and joined the Scottish army outside Glasgow.
That city was under siege and threatening to fall. The winter prevented any campaign in 1455, but after gathering a few thousand more men (25,500 in all), he met 15,000 Scots at Galston on 13 April 1456. This was the first true battle in the Wars of the Roses, and the Cornwallists had an easy victory. Warwick found a weak point in the Scottish line, and in fact most of his opponents were not even ready for battle. Somerset himself was killed in the chaos, and the Scots fled towards Inverness.
There Cornwall played his trump card. At Drogheda he had earlier convened the Irish Parliament, and gained their support for his cause by making several concessions. How much he intended to go through with this is unknown, but a sizeable Irish army had already disembarked in Scotland and cut off the retreating enemy. After another year of sieges throughout the region, the dukes of Argyll and Albany were defeated, leaving only Moray and the most distant parts of the Highlands.
These would be more difficult to take. In June, Warwick led 16,000 men into the Highlands to fight a mere 10,000 Scots. However, they had the advantage of the terrain, and Warwick was sent back with many casualties. It took several months for a second army to arrive and drive Warwick's army up to 19,000 and he attacked yet again. Finally, on 17 November 1457, the Scottish army was fully defeated.
It would take another one and a half years to break the power of the Duke of Moray. The region was granted to James Borkalan, the Duke of Lothian, making him by far one of the most important dukes of England (and a supporter of the Cornwall side). With the north secured, Warwick prepared to march south.
This was when things fell apart for the Cornwallists. Before Warwick could arrive, the new Duke of Somerset, son of the old one, conspired with Margaret d'Anjou to retake London. Most of Warwick's army defected with Sir Andrew Trollope and met with the Welsh army at Ludford Bridge. The Cornwallists were forced to flee to Ireland and come up with a new strategy.
Robert's strategy was to completely change the nature of the war. Instead of being a fight for control of an advisory position, Robert found an excuse to be rid of Ioan entirely: he noted that none of the kings from Dewi on had been offically chosen by the Privy Council, who theoretically had to approve succession. Robert quickly found enough Councillors floating around to make a legal meeting and had them state that the Welsh line of the de Cornouailles should not inherit. Armed with this, he intended to gather a new army, march into London, and have Parliament work out a succession.
The first part worked beautifully. 12,000 Cornwallists landed in Wales on 1 October 1460. It took nearly two months for their opposition to appear, in the form of 18,000 royal soldiers under the command of none other than Margaret d'Anjou herself (with the aid of the younger Somerset, of course). Robert had plenty of a chance to defeat Margaret's army, but he acted too impetuously. The Cornwallist army was smashed at the Battle of Monmouth on 29 November 1460, Robert himself kmortally wounded (he would die on 13 December) along with his second son Edmund. The new leader of the House of Cornwall, Edward, fled back to Ireland along with Warwick.
The 13th century Monnow Bridge at Monmouth
This was by no means the end of things. Edward quickly came back to England and managed to find another 12,000 men to support the Cornwallist cause. Margaret, in response, found 17,500 men and ordered Young Somerset to march north to Nottingham. He did, but soon found that Edward had outmaneuvered him, and stood between him and London. Edward had less intention of seizing the city immediately, however, but instead wanted to pull the Welsh army into a poor position and destroy it. Somerset had advanced as far as Colston, 10 km southeast of Nottingham, when Edward struck.
He did so at the best possible time, when Margaret's army was halfway across a stream. Edward's apparent plan was to defeat the part on his side and then attempt to break across the bridge in order to reach the rest. What worried Margaret and Young Somerset was that only 9,000 Cornwallists appeared immediately. Where were the rest?
That would be answered a short time into the battle. Just as Edward began to break through the main line, the other 3,000 of his men found the stream fordable and appeared on the other side. They were outnumbered, but Margaret had sent 3,000 of her own to the north in order to try and see if the missing Cornwallists were in that direction, thus evening the odds somewhat. The first line sent to defeat them was smashed, and Edward had completed dealing with his side of the river. He himself charged across the bridge with a few hundred of his men, but again he began to send men across the stream itself.
Although they were disorganized, what was left of Margaret's army was worn out and unsure where to go. Outflanked and having to deal with their own fleeing men getting in the way, Edward charged in and broke them. The indefagitable Duke of Cornwall was constantly in battle, joining fresh units when the ones he had been leading wore out. Maragret's army was scattered to the winds, she herself managing to make her escape with her disabled husband but unable to get more supporters at the time.
The Battle of Colston. Each line is c. 1,000 men.
Edward simply marched south to London, and on 5 March 1471 Parliament deposed Ioan and made Edward King of England. For the time he was secure in his position, although his enemies still existed to be a potential problem.
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It has just occured to me that you have given yourself your own John Lackland.
Very entertaining retelling of the Wars of the Roses.
Very entertaining retelling of the Wars of the Roses.
stnylan said:
Oh, I had a very Lackland-like ruler back in the actually Saxon part of the AAR. Ioan's not in much of a position to be an autocrat.
(By the way, if anyone spots me using "Henry", "Lancastrian", or "Yorkist" in the AAR, please feel free to point it out. They keep slipping in and I imagine I didn't catch every instance.
o )EDIT: I've also added some music to the latest update (been a while since I last did that for an AAR...)
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I do seem to recall that. Very CK-ish that, but I don't think he was named John was he?Judas Maccabeus said:Oh, I had a very Lackland-like ruler back in the actually Saxon part of the AAR. Ioan's not in much of a position to be an autocrat.
To be fair, this John is about as successful an autocrat as the historical John - i.e. not very.
And what's this scandalous rumour I hear about full-time employment?
Wonderful chapter, indeed.
There is just a Yorkist... "This was when things fell apart for the Yorkists. Before Warwick could arrive,"
There is just a Yorkist... "This was when things fell apart for the Yorkists. Before Warwick could arrive,"
Those silly DUkes of Somerset are ALWAYS getting in the way, I like your description of the war of the roses, very apt. I'm trying to remember the name of the book I read that led with an introduction almost identical to yours, but I can't now. Who is the Earl of Richmond again..? j/k.
Tellingly, the lines in the animations changed from red and blue to red and white.
If I see "Lancastrian" I'll catch you, yes.
If I see "Lancastrian" I'll catch you, yes.
stnylan: It's true, unfortunately. Its that or not be able to do this at all...
Kurt_Steiner: Fixed, good eye.
JimboIX: I believe Richmond is held by George, the Duke of Clarence. There's this Henry Tudor fellow who says he should have it just because his father held the position (well, he's not saying that because he's only a few years old), but he's a supporter of Ioan, and what's the worst he could do?
(Oh, and that reminds me, I'm going to have to pull out the Malmsey soon... )
RGB: I actually intend for the lines to fit with the colors of the country in question. It's just usually I've been playing England (red) against France or Scotland (blue).
Kurt_Steiner: Fixed, good eye.
JimboIX: I believe Richmond is held by George, the Duke of Clarence. There's this Henry Tudor fellow who says he should have it just because his father held the position (well, he's not saying that because he's only a few years old), but he's a supporter of Ioan, and what's the worst he could do?
(Oh, and that reminds me, I'm going to have to pull out the Malmsey soon...
)RGB: I actually intend for the lines to fit with the colors of the country in question. It's just usually I've been playing England (red) against France or Scotland (blue).
Glad to help. Never mind, this AAR is too good to be spoilt by a single detail like that, don't worry.
Still in the throes of civil unrest ! Will the miseries ever end ? XD Truly though , the balanced approach makes for a realistic and continuously exciting piece ! Keep it up , JM !
So Ioan was finally deposed and there's Cornwallist king on the throne. I'm eager to see who eventually will win this version of the War of the Roses.
Excellent AAR Judas- I've followed you anonymously from 1066! It's really great stuff, hence why you are WritAAR of the Week.
DerKaiser
DerKaiser
Wow, you people appear so incredibly worried about the lack of updates.
In case anyone cares, my modem stopped working and I had to get a new one.
Kurt_Steiner: Great writers like Cervantes in great novels like Don Quixote have made worse mistakes than that and not had problems from it.
canonized: Misery will always be with mankind in his current state, from the first fall of Adam to the final days. England just seems to have gotten an extra portion right now...
Olaus Petrus: Wales isn't done yet...
DerKaiser: My greatest thanks!
Next update is tomorrow, hopefully. I'm also working on another "primary source" in our alternate English, which should be done later today...
In case anyone cares, my modem stopped working and I had to get a new one.
Kurt_Steiner: Great writers like Cervantes in great novels like Don Quixote have made worse mistakes than that and not had problems from it.
canonized: Misery will always be with mankind in his current state, from the first fall of Adam to the final days. England just seems to have gotten an extra portion right now...
Olaus Petrus: Wales isn't done yet...
DerKaiser: My greatest thanks!
Next update is tomorrow, hopefully. I'm also working on another "primary source" in our alternate English, which should be done later today...