Nomads and Agnatic Clans (Open Succession) Bug

[eastcoastceojam]

I had a nice run as the Ashina clan of Khazaria, and wanted to see if I could knock out a few more achievements along the way.

The "Nobody's Business But the Turks" achievement, where you have to conquer Constantinople as a Turkish nomad, seemed doable, if only I could find a way to change my Khazar culture to Turkish without getting a game over.

According to the CK2 wiki, choosing to reform the Tengri Faith with the Agnatic Clans doctrine should allow your sons/brothers to inherit the Khaganate regardless of their culture:

Nomadism - Crusader Kings II Wiki

ck2.paradoxwikis.com

During the Tengri reformation, choosing a "Clans" doctrine (Agnatic or Enatic) will allow the nomad to adopt Open succession, removing nomadic succession's restrictions on culture and age (dynasts of other cultures can inherit, and children can become Khagan).

AND

Open - Crusader Kings II Wiki

ck2.paradoxwikis.com

If a reformed pagan is a nomad, Open succession is arguably superior to Nomadic succession as all males (with Agnatic Clans) of the dynasty will be eligible to inherit, while nomadic succession disinherits dynasts of a different culture. If playing as a Khagan, Open succession allows children to inherit instead of losing the Khaganate to a vassal clan.

However, as nomads cannot hand out titles to courtiers easily, they have some difficulty in determining the succession.

I did just that, reformed the Tengri faith with Agnatic Clans, then hired a Turkish court tutor, and start educating all children with the Heritage focus. 20 years have passed, but now it seems that might have been all for nothing. It seems that even though I selected Agnatic Clans when I reformed 20 years earlier, I am still stuck with Nomad succession. I have several eligible candidates with their new Turkish culture, but they are not listed as pretenders.

If anyone has tips to help me to save this run, that would be much appreciated.

 

[WJS]

Sorry, I have to ask: why didn't you start as a Turkish nomad?

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Sorry, I have to ask: why didn't you start as a Turkish nomad?

Fair question. The short answer is efficiency- I want to knock out more CK2 achievements before CK3 hits. I was hoping to re-use my Khazaria save, as nomad runs can be tedious with all the pillaging clicks. I didn't want to conquer half the steppe again, just because I needed Turkish culture this time, if I didn't have to.

UPDATE

I figured out the bug. I went back to some old copies of my saves, and here are my succession laws right before the ruler who reformed the religion died:

And here is how the succession laws look right after his son takes over. I didn't notice at the time, but the succession laws switched back to nomadic automatically, and there is no option to switch back to Agnatic Open.

If the ruler who reformed my religion had been young enough to switch the culture of his sons via tutoring, and then have those sons reach adulthood before the reforming ruler passed away, then the Agnatic Clans doctrine would have done what I intended. Otherwise, Agnatic Clans is a total waste for a Nomad ruler.

 

[MK1980]

sounds like a bug to me. either it was intended to offer open succession as an alternative or it was intended that nomads are stuck with their special nomad succession. but switching to open and then automatically reverting to nomad with no way to switch back is probably not WAD.

don't think there's any legit way to swap to a different culture under nomad succession. i'd just dump the save and restart as a native turk clan. i think i used the yabguid (sp?) clan for that achievement. they are a bit weaker at the start compared to the khazars but if you already have some experience with playing nomads it really shouldn't take long to get them going. a few hours of gameplay and you should be big enough to destroy the byz

 

[eastcoastceojam]

sounds like a bug to me. either it was intended to offer open succession as an alternative or it was intended that nomads are stuck with their special nomad succession. but switching to open and then automatically reverting to nomad with no way to switch back is probably not WAD.
...
i'd just dump the save and restart as a native turk clan. i think i used the yabguid (sp?) clan for that achievement.

Thanks for the confirmation- I agree that this is likely a bug.

I actually just started up a game as the Yabguids. Those opening moves are a lot tricker, since you are weak at the start, and have to give 2 counties away to a vassal clan after your first conquest.

Plus, if I want to reform the Tengri religion, I will have to fight the Khazars, since they have 2 of the holy sites at the 769 start. Oh well, I guess it will keep me busy during the last months of quarantine.

 

[MK1980]

found a screenshot from that achievement run.

consider it a benchmark (who am i kidding - i'm just trying to brag lol)

don't remember how much real time that took, but probably not all that much. nomad games tend to move quickly since you don't really have to manage much other than moving armies back and forth

 

[Ambion Iskariot]

Maybe it isn't a bug but about if your ruler is tengri (or another religion) or reformed tengri?

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Maybe it isn't a bug but about if your ruler is tengri (or another religion) or reformed tengri?

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that I might not have this succession law issue if I had reformed a different pagan religion, like maybe Zunist or Bon?

 

[WJS]

Muslim Nomads use Nomadic succession, don't they?

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Muslim Nomads use Nomadic succession, don't they?

Correct. I booted up a new game as the 1066 Khagan of Transoxiana just to confirm that assumption:

My frustration isn't that Nomad succession is unchangeable over the long haul. My real issue is:

1. The wiki authors stated that Agnatic Clans could change nomad succession laws in multiple articles, and
2. The succession laws do change under the ruler that reforms the religion, but then revert back upon his death.

#1 is understandable, as there are lots of things in CK2 that are buggy or don't work as expected. #2 is the one that is really frustrating.

 

[Whizzer]

Open Succession requires the title holder to not be nomadic. Since Open Succession is applied forcefully after converting, it's probably an oversight and shouldn't apply to nomads.

 

[Ambion Iskariot]

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that I might not have this succession law issue if I had reformed a different pagan religion, like maybe Zunist or Bon?

No, I am saying

Maybe it isn't a bug but about if your ruler is tengri (or another religion) or reformed tengri?

To repeat the question in other words: Is your successor reformed tengri or old tengri (or another religion)? If he isn't reformed tengri he may not be able to use new succession law for reformed tengri.

(Edit: but others have already confirmed, that this is anyway a bug/oversight)

 

[eastcoastceojam]

To repeat the question in other words: Is your successor reformed tengri or old tengri (or another religion)? If he isn't reformed tengri he may not be able to use new succession law for reformed tengri.

Sorry, I didn't understand what you were asking earlier. That is a great question- as having an heir with the unreformed faith would explain why the succession law flipped back. But unfortunately, all the heirs and pretenders were Reformed Tengri, so I think this a bug, or an oversight on the part of the wiki authors.

 

[buttmoo]

No, I am saying



To repeat the question in other words: Is your successor reformed tengri or old tengri (or another religion)? If he isn't reformed tengri he may not be able to use new succession law for reformed tengri.

(Edit: but others have already confirmed, that this is anyway a bug/oversight)

Mine is reformed tengri, and the succession was only changed back several years after his reign began.

I had gender equality in the game rules, and instead of changing back to the original nomad succession (where daughters can be heirs), it was changed to Agnatic Nomad, which is far worse than the initial one.

The whole reformed religion is a joke and there should be warnings and exact effects that would happen to player's dynasty.

 

[majdavlk]

i definitly had at some point turkish succession when playing nomads. but anyways, princely elective succession is available to nomads if they hold HRE. so you can vote in your heir that way.

also, you can generate claim on khanate (king tier) , settle, change culture of your heirs and inherit as them, and then push your claim to the khanate, then invalidate your government to switch to nomadic gov (if feudal, switching to muslim should so it. or out of myslim if youre already one)

 

[buttmoo]

i definitly had at some point turkish succession when playing nomads. but anyways, princely elective succession is available to nomads if they hold HRE. so you can vote in your heir that way.

HRE doesn't exist yet but I already destroyed all but eastern francia in Europe.

Wouldn't it cause problems with clans if I take the decision as nomad?

 

[majdavlk]

HRE doesn't exist yet but I already destroyed all but eastern francia in Europe.

Wouldn't it cause problems with clans if I take the decision as nomad?

i think there will be some issues if you loose the election. the emperor will be weird i think, dont rememebr if he switches governmetn to nomad, or not, and what happens after you win again