[Need Help] Always lose defending Soviet from Germany

[MonkeyMajik]

Still no luck defending from Nazi.This is what I did 3-4 times but always failed. Maybe you could tell me if I have some steps wrong or bad strategically.

1. “Stalin Constitution” and “Collectivist Propaganda” should always be my first because they provide with a sum of 280 PP to change Economy to “War Economy” and open the Market to “Free Trade”. After that go for the "Five Year Plan" then finish the "Collectivist Propaganda" tree. I went to the 4th research slot as fast as possible, and after that “Workers Culture”.
   
   
2. Full only build Civ Factory so hard that I going to end up with 250-300 civs by 1939.
   
   
3. Help Republican spain to win the civil war. And always ended up won.
   
   
4. Did Purge Focus Juni / July 1938
   
   
5. Land Doctrine went for Mass assault -> Deep Battle
   
   
6. Usually start researching Fighter IIs in 1939 and CAS I and II in late 1939.
   
   
7. When 1939 comes and after finished “Concentrated Industry III” , Go FULLY on Military Factory until January 1941.
   
   
8. Focus only fighters, guns and tanks.
   
   
9. After the “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, war (Take claim state) with Finland, Romania, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia.
   
   
10. Early 1941, Germany declared war (Romania and Hungary will join the war) Then Soviet union was the end.
    

My templates

1. 48 divs of 10inf-0 with eng, arty.
   
   
2. 48 div of 14inf-4art with eng, art, AA.
   
   
3. 24div of 6medium-4mot with eng, recon
   
   
4. 3000 fighters, separated to 300 fighters per air wings. One air wings will do 1 task (Air superiority or intereption)
   

I drew front line From Poland to Romania, and took defense from there.

Maybe I draw wrong front line? I should defense near Moscow, or build forts around Moscow then sitting duck there.

 

[Dalwin]

You'd be better off if those 40 width infantry units were twice as many 20 width ones. You'd also be better off if they had at least some AT. I would also up the firepower on your tank divisions by adding some support artillery or even SPART.

How are you losing? Are you taking high attrition losses? Is this because you end up with troops massed at the front to the point where you can no longer supply them? (IF this try adding logistics companies.)

Are you always keeping a thin second line immediately behind your front? Doing this greatly reduces the risk of any meaningful breakthrough against you.

Are you manually controlling units or just setting up lines and letting the battle planner shift troops around? (As bad as the BP is overall, it is at its worst on defense.)

 

[Zarine]

48 divs of 10inf-0 with eng, arty. -> change to 7/2 WAY more effective in defense
48 div of 14inf-4art with eng, art, AA. -> unless you are sure to hold a small front, split them to have more div.

Also, I usually wait behind the rivers (with fort ~lvl 3 - you don't want to go too high otherwise AI won't suicide attack)


Also in 1941, I usually have 120 divs of 7/2 for the front with Germany and about ~36 armor divisions (20 width) + 48 divs (7/2) for eastern front + 24 div (7/2) for scandinavian potential front
So somehow, you are missing quite a lot of equipment... maybe start Mil factory sooner ?

 

[ThePHD]

So you only have 120 divisions? Why do you have so few? The Soviet Union can support much more than that. If you're going to build so few divisions then they need to be beefy. Your problem is you have too few divisions and the ones you have are weak. You're making it too easy for the AI to break through since you are covering such a wide front. Just build a ton of basic infantry divisions to hold the line. You can easily have 300-400 divisions or more by the time Germany attacks you. The AI will not be able to get through them if you have enough. Even if they do then you should have plenty sitting in reserve. I checked an old save and the German AI has over 350 divisions fighting on the Eastern front in early 1942. That's not even counting German allies. It's not surprising that you're losing when the German AI likely has 3x as many divisions as you.

 

[Rashie]

Go down to 20 width with just infantry line battalions, artillery, AT, and Engineer as support companies. Do not neglect building CAS in favour of just fighters, you need both.
You should reliably be able to get some 360-400 divisions on the frontline of this template by the time the Germans attack.

 

[Want2War]

And take the Purge focus in 36 to get rid of the penalties earlier.

 

[Achab]

You did Lessons of War right after the war with FIN, I hope.

With the Mass Assault LD you can't go with usual division templates, as your infantry battalilions are width 1.6 (not the usual 2.0). With classic templates you mess your total battle combat width and suffer from massive penalties.

Good w20 templates with MA are:
10inf/1art/1at or 1aa
10inf/1specforce/2at or 2aa

For spacemarines:
10inf/1specfoce/1td
10inf/1spart/1spaa

Add support engineers, recon, arty, aa, at, maybe logistic.

 

[mursolini]

Ease up on CIC spam, and get larger army. At least, get some 10-30 additional MIC faster, so you can build up some decent stockpile of rifles and AT. Remember, under concentrated MIC take a lot of time to get going, and you don't need that 300 CIC, you will run out of slots.

Use doctrine to your advantage, akka build more infantry, and use less support stuff, as it lowers your org.

 

[Bunnytob]

1) You're purging too late
2) Too many CiCs.
3) 10/0 is utterly useless
4) Not enough planes
5) Not enough troops.

 

[a_sophist]

Quantity is the problem here, OP, especially with the templates you've chosen. They're viable in themselves, but not at those numbers. If you're taking Deep Battle you might as well make use of the additional infantry combat width too. Also, the essentials of defense, especially against the AI (vanilla or Expert AI mod) are balancing org available in the province and stacking modifiers, especially entrenchment via engineers and generals/FMs. Here's an example of a no-planes build I did that didn't get pushed at all:

With air cover you don't need the AA, or the gamey manipulation of generals to get 360 under an FM. In your case I think you made too few planes to forego having AA. How many factories did you dedicate to them? In fact, I think a screenshot of your production tab (ideally at different points in the game if you've got saves) would go a long way to explaining the problem in general.

1) You're purging too late

With a historical timeline, mid-late '38 is the best time for the Purge, since it lines up with Germany taking M-R, and thus the Winter War and Lessons of War focus. You're eating Purge penalties needlessly if you do it early unless you declare ahistorical wars. That being said, as long as the penalties are gone when the Germans come knocking it's irrelevant to the outcome.

2) Too many CiCs.

Building CIC (+infra) into 1939 is absolutely normal for a '41 war. Twenty-odd factories on guns and 5-10 on artillery and support equipment each from day 1 is sufficient to supply enough infantry to hold the German AI.

3) 10/0 is utterly useless

If you don't stack modifiers, don't have engineers, don't have AT, and don't have either AA or planes, sure. But with those things they hold fine. Meanwhile 7/2s and the like cost way more IC for a bit more attack and less org. "But the combat ends earlier because you deal damage quicker!" you might say. Again, it's a question of play style. If you don't want to grind generals, fine, make 7/2s, but 10/0s with the right build are very cost effective.

 

[Gort11]

I'd also mention that you should never field a division that doesn't have support artillery. It's so cost-effective it's a no-brainer.

 

[petrovchris]

You have way less divisions than needed. You start with 138 divisions in 1936, how can you have less in 1941?
As a reference, in my recent Soviet Game on Elite, I had 300+ divisions in the middle of 1940, when Germany did an early Barbarossa. By November of 1942 Axis + Japan have been completely destroyed.
Make sure you have a second defensive line to prevent enemy breakthrough. In some places I even put a third line.

 

[qer]

Just spam 20 width pure inf (or 19.2 after the doctrines) with engineers for defense and use tanks for attacking. Also getting air superiority and then pounding the enemies with cas is a reliable way to win as any country in vanilla. To give you an estimate with 5 millions soldiers you should be able to hold the line. Also supply in the east can quickly become a problem, so building up Inf and using logistics companies help. Setting secondary lines for defense also works really well.

 

[Bouchart]

As mediocre as I am I recently played and had a successful Soviet game, defeating Germany in 1942. I predominately used 14 INF 4 ART divisions with support anti-tank, field medic, logistic support, engineer, and recon. Build lots of fighters and either CAS or tactical bombers. Tactical bombers do worse at close air support, but you might prefer them since they have a lot of range to cover those large air zones and the airfields are spread out a bit.

When Germany cedes east Poland to you, build up a lot of infrastructure and a couple of levels of forts on each border province. You'll need the extra infrastructure to supply all your troops, and infrastructure will take damage as combat drags on. That's part of why I liked logistics companies in my divisions.

You might be building too many civilian factories and not starting military factories soon enough. You need to pump out tons of infantry weapons, support equipment, artillery, and fighters. Massive amounts. Always have air superiority at all times.

Don't be afraid to fall back a bit if Germany looks to be advancing. Your goal is to buy time and wear out Germany's manpower. Don't get overrun or encircled. Eventually all that infrastructure in border provinces will end up destroyed through combat. If Germany advances into that they'll start running low on supplies.

Whether the Republicans or Nationalists win in Spain doesn't matter too much but the experience from sending volunteers will help out.

If you can get a lot of artillery up and running, Superior Firepower might be a better alternative to Mass Mobilization.

As far as my focuses go, I went Stalin Constitution - Collectivist Propaganda - Finish 5 Year Plan - Armament - Extra Research Slot - Great Purge. During the Purge I justified on Romania and declared war as soon as the Purge focus finished. Then I pushed to Lessons of War This was probably a mistake, since it expanded my front line with the Axis a lot, but it did deny the Axis all that Romanian oil. When you purge isn't as important as finishing Lessons of War before war starts with Germany. You can use the Winter War instead to fight a war, or justify on Iran, which isn't too hard of a war since their capital is up north.

Don't bother much with refineries or refinery tech. You are better off building a few extra civilian factories and importing rubber.

 

[MonkeyMajik]

Hi guys, thanks for all your tips and advice, but again, I was always lose to defend the Poland. I didn't know what I was doing wrong.
So here is my screen shot. Maybe you can give me some details.
Divisions in the field were all Infantry units, Since My production still catch up all equipment for the infantry, so by the times Germany war with soviet, I still didn't have armor division to attack.
I was starting to build Military factory at mid 1939. I have 2k fighters. But germany still can push me. Did I defend with the wrong front lines, or I just to up front ahead, maybe I need to move back near Moscow, and defend from there?
I have 5x24 division front lines in border with Poland, and 2x24 division in Hungary, but Germany push faster from there.
Any help greatly appreciated,
I have 300 hours play hoi4, but this is the first time I got frustrated playing hoi4 (already retry 5-10 times) - defending Soviet from Germany.

 

[a_sophist]

Again, I'd like to see a screenshot of your production. That's still way too little material in the field. It also doesn't seem like you're making good use of your generals/FMs, since a bunch of offensive minded guys are controlling units meant to hold the line. You ought to be using the SCW and war with Finland to grind infantry expert and/or ambusher on as many generals as you can.

You're also letting the battle planner bunch up your units and create weaknesses elsewhere. You need to manually control where your units are, ideally without the planner using the pause function, but if you keep the planner you've got to stay vigilant with where it's putting your troops.

 

[Secret Master]

Hi guys, thanks for all your tips and advice, but again, I was always lose to defend the Poland. I didn't know what I was doing wrong.

I didn't see anyone else mention this, so I will.

I consider defending the former Polish territory to be a mistake. There's some nice terrain for German panzers to move at full speed through there.

I would instead defend the Riga-Kiev-Kherson river line. There are only two provinces on this line of rivers that are not rivers.

There are also swamp, forests, and cities at critical places to enhance your defense. You can even get crazy and fortify the line. Level 3 forts across the entire river line might help a newer player like yourself get some breathing room to prepare for counter-offensives.

It's also a wider front than the area in Poland, so Germany can't concentrate her divisions as easily.

The only weak spot in the entire defense is the corridor at Vitebsk. It's two provinces not covered by rivers. But you can anticipate the placement of German armor there, and plan accordingly. Concentration of air power and anti-tank guns can turn the tables on the panzer arm.

 

[Bunnytob]

The first thing that I notice is that you seem to be attacking; IMO that's not a good idea unless you can push.
The second thing I notice is the "2k planes" - which is way too little planes.

The world will look something like this if Mol-Rib happens when Barbarossa happens.
Show here are two defensive lines.
The first - on the left - is an opportunistic forward line that realistically you probably won't be able to fortify very well but is worth a shot.
The second - on the right (which I have dubbed the Dnieper-Daugava line) and SM has dubbed the

Riga-Kiev-Kherson river line

is what is most commonly used in MP.

Bear in mind that the Stalin Line looks like this, and it's relatively easy to get level 10 forts in all those places. The three "Odessa Line" Forts in particular are virtually unbreakable at level 10.

Though ultimately, a save would be more useful than screenshots. We can evaluate that much better.

 

[Bunnytob]

Here's my take on it.

Spoiler: Key

In order of Priority:
Blue: The Stalin Line Forts
Yellow: Forward Defensive Line. The lighter yellow is the even-more-forward parts.
Pink: The Main MP defensive line.
Green: Other Defensible provinces/lines you may be able to hold for a while.

 

[Achab]

Hi guys, thanks for all your tips and advice, but again, I was always lose to defend the Poland. I didn't know what I was doing wrong.

It's cool that you thank me for the advice, but you completely ignored my tips for the proper division templates with the Mass Assault Land Doctrine you are employing. Your divisions have wrong combat width and you suffer massive penalties because of it.